the "i'm not dead thread."
Just got off the plane, expect lots of news tomorrow.
Just got off the plane, expect lots of news tomorrow.
Topic: WTF Avalon? Ship the Chips! - page 7. (Read 45758 times)
looks like our persistence is about to pay off:
I think the overall lesson here is leave long term investing to investors and buying to stuff shipping in days not months especially with BTC. If there's profit to be made developing a product money will be found for it's development. The grand thread through this entire forum if reading it far back in time is "if only I would've just hanged on to that BTC I'd be way ahead" I don't think that will change going forward.
Not really true for Avalon B1/B2, if people actually got their units. Definitely true of BFL orders before BTC went up to $100, though.
I think the overall lesson here is leave long term investing to investors and buying to stuff shipping in days not months especially with BTC. If there's profit to be made developing a product money will be found for it's development. The grand thread through this entire forum if reading it far back in time is "if only I would've just hanged on to that BTC I'd be way ahead" I don't think that will change going forward.
If they are trying to test 2.1 million ASIC chips with a small crew then I can understand the delay... What I can't understand is why the BTC is still in the account and hasn't been used to hire additional people. My best guess is that they've been paid and aren't in any hurry to get the chips out now.
The webstore for chip sales said the chips would be working/tested.
Interesting. Presumably some % is defective. Since the chips are connected serially, one bad chip could mess up a whole board, so testing is probably pretty critical.
On the other hand I'm sure purchasers would probably prefer getting untested chips at this rate.
That said, 2.1 million chips would be 720Th/s. More then twice the entire current hash rate. Enough to boost the difficulty of the network to 100.
So obviously most of these chips are not in production at this point.
Yifu saying they estimated how much money they are loosing while travelling and not using the miner during the conference - from 1:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD237oF7cCo
I guess that clashes with his statement that they don't mine!!!
Also, Yifu talking about pre-orders and meeting the deadlines from - from 4:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVx26LlNXA
They changed their policy after B2, it was in their email newsletter.
i think Yifu - Bitsyncom cant deliver the chips, because they have no chips 
+1
This is the payment address for chip orders: https://blockchain.info/address/1FGAftzSTztFSB8LMwsrdCKTyqGY6zr3sU
It currently has a balance of 75,779.8 BTC with no withdrawals.
So doesn't it look like they haven't paid TSMC for chip production?
Yifu doesnt have to pay much for the chipproduction. They earned enough money from the miners before so they dont need to use the money from that address.
VICE: This is an obvious question, but why aren’t you mining your own chips?
Yifu: Like I said, the current reality is vastly different from what we originally had planned. We always figured we would be late to the party. Butterfly Labs and bASIC (another ASIC developer that ultimately failed to launch) were supposed to launch in succession. But due to various complications and delays, it didn’t work out that way.
If they had delivered on their promises, they would have shipped months before our first batch. We wanted to start selling chips so people could make their own units, providing a hedge from a single entity becoming too powerful, and then move onto a new project. That was our main goal. We wanted to prevent this potential monopoly. As it turned out, we became the monopoly we tried to prevent.
VICE: You aren’t doing any mining at all?
Yifu: Nope. Fun fact: none of the Avalon team have their own mining units (outside of test units).
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/engineering-the-bitcoin-gold-rush-an-interview-with-yifu-guo-creator-of-the-first-asic-based-miner#ixzz2bJSc9dJX
Yifu saying they estimated how much money they are loosing while travelling and not using the miner during the conference - from 1:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD237oF7cCo
I guess that clashes with his statement that they don't mine!!!
Also, Yifu talking about pre-orders and meeting the deadlines from - from 4:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVx26LlNXA
If they are trying to test 2.1 million ASIC chips with a small crew then I can understand the delay... What I can't understand is why the BTC is still in the account and hasn't been used to hire additional people. My best guess is that they've been paid and aren't in any hurry to get the chips out now.
I guess the best way to know is ask ourselves if the contract is for 10,000 working&tested chips or 10,000 chips direct from the fab.
The webstore for chip sales said the chips would be working/tested.
Quote
The no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale
- the only payment accepted is Bitcoin.
- these chips will be available until at least end of the year, 2013.
- spec and various information is available on the wiki
- the chips being sold are packaged and tested.
- the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,
- made to order from TSMC foundry, this also means no refunds.
- the order quantity is 10,000 chips.
- the chips are identical to those in the Avalon units.
- communication protocol, reference board design can be found on github.
- everything will be open source from FPGA to PCB design.
- 30 sample chips will be provided 4 weeks into ordering per 10,000 chips.
- we do not offer technical support of any kind, this is final.
P.S. Please don't forget that 95% it is confirmed that thay had those chips but decided to push them somewhere else
http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/
Damn, so they gave these guys 375,000 chips???http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/
...Wait, 135 boxes?!?!?!? They shipped these guys 2 million chips!
That's incredibly unethical unless they ordered the whole run first, but then who is there to check on them. But why this company? Why do it? Why piss off everyone else with chip orders by delaying everyone else's chips into a 2nd production run? Which is apparently what's happened.
Maybe this company told Yifu they'd buy 2 million chips if they got first shipment? Backroom deal.
Backroom deal, where Bitsyncom took a bribe in order to give priority shipping to these guys? Low, very low.
At least these are relatively crap technology compared to what's coming online. If Avalon had been selling KNC or Bitfury chips, the industry would be virtually ruined.
Btw, $14.7 million in Avalon chips, that's worth like ~1.47% of the value of all bitcoin.
Pirateat40 got charged, there is no real reason to make sth similar happen again.
Yeah, but Pirateat40 was doing a fairly specific scam, a Ponzi scheme. In order to see Bitsyncom charged with a crime they'd have to be breaking a specific law. If Bitsyncom took money and didn't even order chips from the fab, then you'd have a clear case of fraud.
On the other hand if they have chips and are just not shipping them in a timely manner for some reason I doubt you'd see criminal charges.
On the other hand, if the agreement on their website counted as a "contract" then you could sue them for breach of contract, and maybe get a judgement for the purchase price back. But good luck collecting.
So the pictures of the boxes are dated July 9th. That means its been almost 4 weeks since the chips showed up. Are they testing them first before shipping? Or are they just re-addressing the boxes and shipping them to customers?
If they are trying to test 2.1 million ASIC chips with a small crew then I can understand the delay... What I can't understand is why the BTC is still in the account and hasn't been used to hire additional people. My best guess is that they've been paid and aren't in any hurry to get the chips out now.
I guess the best way to know is ask ourselves if the contract is for 10,000 working&tested chips or 10,000 chips direct from the fab.
Another possibility is they are still building Batch 3 machines and won't send out the raw chips until all Batch 3 machines have been delivered?
If they are trying to test 2.1 million ASIC chips with a small crew then I can understand the delay... What I can't understand is why the BTC is still in the account and hasn't been used to hire additional people. My best guess is that they've been paid and aren't in any hurry to get the chips out now.
I guess the best way to know is ask ourselves if the contract is for 10,000 working&tested chips or 10,000 chips direct from the fab.
Another possibility is they are still building Batch 3 machines and won't send out the raw chips until all Batch 3 machines have been delivered?
Reply on Reddit:
Haha, probably not the bitcointalk Inaba, naturally, but damn, quite the parody
Well I got a Jally and a 25gh/s miner coming, probably before these chips ship, I bought DIY asic chips BECAUSE of BFL being fuckups, but its ironic that BFL may be right about beating Avalon Quote
[-] lnaba 0 points 25 minutes ago
I fucking told you fucking fucks. Avalon is shit and we're shipping as many as 3 jalapenos per week. Fuck you if you want any more information we don't owe you shitheads anything...by the way there's been another delay FUCK YOU
I fucking told you fucking fucks. Avalon is shit and we're shipping as many as 3 jalapenos per week. Fuck you if you want any more information we don't owe you shitheads anything...by the way there's been another delay FUCK YOU
Haha, probably not the bitcointalk Inaba, naturally, but damn, quite the parody
Reply on Reddit:
Haha, probably not the bitcointalk Inaba, naturally, but damn, quite the parody
Quote
[-] lnaba 0 points 25 minutes ago
I fucking told you fucking fucks. Avalon is shit and we're shipping as many as 3 jalapenos per week. Fuck you if you want any more information we don't owe you shitheads anything...by the way there's been another delay FUCK YOU
I fucking told you fucking fucks. Avalon is shit and we're shipping as many as 3 jalapenos per week. Fuck you if you want any more information we don't owe you shitheads anything...by the way there's been another delay FUCK YOU
Haha, probably not the bitcointalk Inaba, naturally, but damn, quite the parody
LMAO
You know, he's so low, that it's becoming harder and harder to tell anymore lol
Reply on Reddit:
Haha, probably not the bitcointalk Inaba, naturally, but damn, quite the parody
Quote
[-] lnaba 0 points 25 minutes ago
I fucking told you fucking fucks. Avalon is shit and we're shipping as many as 3 jalapenos per week. Fuck you if you want any more information we don't owe you shitheads anything...by the way there's been another delay FUCK YOU
I fucking told you fucking fucks. Avalon is shit and we're shipping as many as 3 jalapenos per week. Fuck you if you want any more information we don't owe you shitheads anything...by the way there's been another delay FUCK YOU
Haha, probably not the bitcointalk Inaba, naturally, but damn, quite the parody
Pirateat40 got charged, there is no real reason to make sth similar happen again.
Courts and anti fraud organizations seem to be aware of Bitcoin.
For court it is quite regular case: some guys invented something, showed working units and even delivered some of them, took shitload of preorders for next batches and runaway with money. This is quite regular case except payment was done in bitcoins.
We should set a new standard in Bitcoin mining industry, and make aware each hardware manufacture that this is no kinder garden no more.
And about those who are mummbling sth about not suing BFL:
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
The time has come.
And lol since it wasn't hard to collect few millions of bucks to order hardware from them it shouldn't be hard to collect few thousands to start things getting more serious.
P.S. Please don't forget that 95% it is confirmed that thay had those chips but decided to push them somewhere else
http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/
Courts and anti fraud organizations seem to be aware of Bitcoin.
For court it is quite regular case: some guys invented something, showed working units and even delivered some of them, took shitload of preorders for next batches and runaway with money. This is quite regular case except payment was done in bitcoins.
We should set a new standard in Bitcoin mining industry, and make aware each hardware manufacture that this is no kinder garden no more.
And about those who are mummbling sth about not suing BFL:
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
The time has come.
And lol since it wasn't hard to collect few millions of bucks to order hardware from them it shouldn't be hard to collect few thousands to start things getting more serious.
P.S. Please don't forget that 95% it is confirmed that thay had those chips but decided to push them somewhere else
http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/
Judge: Explain how the defendant has caused you monetary loss, Mr. Plaintiff.
Plaintiff: Well, your honor, the rise in difficulty has made it harder to mine bitcoin, and the plaintiff has not shipped the chips in a timely manner.
Judge: What is bitcoin and how has the defendant caused you monetary damages?
At that point, you will have about 3 minutes to explain bitcoin, the rise in difficulty, how bitcoin are valuable in real currency, and why a judge with 600+ cases on his docket should award you monetary compensation.
Good luck with that.
Plaintiff: Well, your honor, the rise in difficulty has made it harder to mine bitcoin, and the plaintiff has not shipped the chips in a timely manner.
Judge: What is bitcoin and how has the defendant caused you monetary damages?
At that point, you will have about 3 minutes to explain bitcoin, the rise in difficulty, how bitcoin are valuable in real currency, and why a judge with 600+ cases on his docket should award you monetary compensation.
Good luck with that.
...That's right, no court has ever taken up a complex financial, or technical concept before. It's utterly pointless. They couldn't even get OJ right.
/sarcasm
Good point, but I think if people on this forums had the will and balls to do it they would have already done it to BFL
Precisely. If people have not organized and sued BFL yet, since they are still working on singles from July and August 2012, a year late, do you REALLY think anybody is going to shell out the money to get a lawyer on retainer for a chip shipment that's maybe a month late? maybe two?? Get real.
And even if somebody did, by the time they got an initial hearing would be 6 months from now, if you're lucky. What you gonna say to the judge if the chips ship in 1-3 months? You'd look like a FOOL, and then you'd be required to prove that you had REAL damages.
Judge: Explain how the defendant has caused you monetary loss, Mr. Plaintiff.
Plaintiff: Well, your honor, the rise in difficulty has made it harder to mine bitcoin, and the plaintiff has not shipped the chips in a timely manner.
Judge: What is bitcoin and how has the defendant caused you monetary damages?
At that point, you will have about 3 minutes to explain bitcoin, the rise in difficulty, how bitcoin are valuable in real currency, and why a judge with 600+ cases on his docket should award you monetary compensation.
Good luck with that.
You're agreeing with the quote, yet you're one of the spineless people he's talking about. who are too scared to even try to take action.
What about this!
https://www.courthousenews.com/2013/08/06/Bitcoin.pdf
Check this quote out "Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors wishing to invest in BTCST provided an investment of money."
One precedent down. Wonder how they'll figure out definable legal ownership of addresses. This certainly puts a very high burden on any US operator handling bitcoins. This ruling might imply through common enterprise liability that the group buy organizers might be liable when calling these buys "investments" and since people relied on them for their expertise well I think it's time to stop calling anything "investments" at least if you are in the good ol USA.
https://www.courthousenews.com/2013/08/06/Bitcoin.pdf
Check this quote out "Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors wishing to invest in BTCST provided an investment of money."
One precedent down. Wonder how they'll figure out definable legal ownership of addresses. This certainly puts a very high burden on any US operator handling bitcoins. This ruling might imply through common enterprise liability that the group buy organizers might be liable when calling these buys "investments" and since people relied on them for their expertise well I think it's time to stop calling anything "investments" at least if you are in the good ol USA. What "contract"? Under who's jurisdiction? What was your "valuable consideration" for this "contract" and can you prove you "paid it" and the "entity" you made this "contract" with "received it"?
Try trolling harder,
meanwhile no chips no response
Maybe someone with forum trust and reputation will start a GROUP BUY for the Chinese/USA LAWYERS and form a lawsuit?
I can do it but I live in Europe so no real point for me to do that.
Good point, but I think if people on this forums had the will and balls to do it they would have already done it to BFL
Precisely. If people have not organized and sued BFL yet, since they are still working on singles from July and August 2012, a year late, do you REALLY think anybody is going to shell out the money to get a lawyer on retainer for a chip shipment that's maybe a month late? maybe two?? Get real.
And even if somebody did, by the time they got an initial hearing would be 6 months from now, if you're lucky. What you gonna say to the judge if the chips ship in 1-3 months? You'd look like a FOOL, and then you'd be required to prove that you had REAL damages.
Judge: Explain how the defendant has caused you monetary loss, Mr. Plaintiff.
Plaintiff: Well, your honor, the rise in difficulty has made it harder to mine bitcoin, and the plaintiff has not shipped the chips in a timely manner.
Judge: What is bitcoin and how has the defendant caused you monetary damages?
At that point, you will have about 3 minutes to explain bitcoin, the rise in difficulty, how bitcoin are valuable in real currency, and why a judge with 600+ cases on his docket should award you monetary compensation.
Good luck with that.
Good point, but I think if people on this forums had the will and balls to do it they would have already done it to BFL
The value involved in individual Avalon chips is far higher then with BFL, and the Avalon terms had a definite delivery date, 10-15 weeks - as opposed to "2 months or more" with BFL.
Wouldn't surprise me to see some lawsuits filed.
BitSynCom is a USA corporation, incorporated in the state of Nevada.
I don't see that entity on the website. Possibly that was deliberate. Is it listed once you do an account or order with them? You can't lien or attach BTC but does the company have any assets in the US that could be frozen by lis pendens? Since yufu is in the US the easiest route would be to serve him personally. He might have been deliberate in publicly stating he doesn't control the BTC sent in but you might be able to depose him under oath to get some answers but the process is very long for that if he fights it.You should probably read the current render of avalon-asics.com before posting such dribble. It clearly says copyright Bitsyncom LLC. Not to mention, the waybackmachine records of the avalon-asics website during those orders. It's all very clear that Yifu and Avalon were operating as a Nevada-based domestic LLC with its managing member (Yifu) residing in Brooklyn.
You bring up a good point; recoverability. If sued, what's the likelihood that the plaintiffs would actually receive restitution? Quite low. However, this isn't just a civil matter and it isn't just a matter for the SEC (traditionally they only deal with public companies) but rather one that hits the radar of the NYAG and FTC. The NYAG has a reputation for being incredibly tough, ever since Spitzer, and the FTC is a nightmare of its own. In short, Yifu & Co fucked up. They WILL have to answer in court, should they ever decide to step foot in the United States again.
To those mentioning the international aspect; this might actually draw out prosecution. My personal take is that Yifu will be summonsed in US court on interstate fraud charges and extradited accordingly. After all, when multiple countries want to prosecute, US almost always gets first hack at the bad guy.
The other reason why I think the SEC route is a waste of time is because Yifu wasn't directly soliciting funds to start or develop his company. The SEC cares more the sale of equity than anything else.
Interesting . . . likelihood of restitution would be low. What I think is more interesting is that with normal fraud/laundering/whatever you want to call it the paper trail (with regard to money) always ends somewhere. With bitcoins the defendant is in a even worse situation since it almost looks as if they took steps to conceal their crime, a judge in my opinion would come down very hard on someone if they were sued.
Good point, but I think if people on this forums had the will and balls to do it they would have already done it to BFL
I think things are different now. Being scorn TWICE will set people off, everyone has come to expect this shit from BFL, but another manufacturer trying to pull the same stunt... no way.
Also most BFL customers have very small investments, most chip buyers have very large investments...
Jump to: