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Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1583. (Read 4670622 times)

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Digital currency is digital. It doesn't need ENERGY to survive to justify itself. POS can be duplicated. Just like Bitcoin can be duplicated and XMR can be duplicated.

Not exactly. He's right in a way. Energy is scarce. You can't duplicate Bitcoin or Monero a million times with their high hash rates because the energy usage would be prohibitive. You can create a little million shitcoins with virtualy no hash rate, or which are constantly stealing hash rate from each other as miner jump to the latest scam, and these might indeed be clones of the BTC or XMR code, but those are not duplicates of the BTC or XMR network

POS coins can be duplicated quite literally without physical limit. That is a major difference.

I don't totally agree this means they can never have value though.
kbm
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
That PoS are called "coins" is a misnomer. What makes digital things "coins" is the real world energy that restricts their creation. Without mining, there is nothing that prevents duplicating PoS schemes endlessly, because doing that is free. With mining, the difference between Bitcoin and mineable altcoins stays clear because the meager demand of altcoins means meager price and less mining.

So the innovation of a quantifiable 'difficulty' lends heavily to the idea that you're creating 'something', where my current understanding of stake is that it's always a % of your staked money .. set in stone by the developers. That's an interesting comparison. On one end with PoW wealth would tend to be power law distributed .. or at least can be calculated to favor such a tendency, where on the other (PoS) that claim may fail(? - anyone have studies on this). A PoS tends to favor those that got their earliest, and grabbed the coin first. I believe this was one of the reason they are now tending to favor a PoW distribution, but the window of the distribution period is generally short with these newer ones (even ones with IPO are often short windows that don't give many a chance to get in at the only right time) .. so that any representative demographic has less of a chance to form, and generally has a very strange distribution. PoW - the right time to get in is generally 'now', where with PoS the right time to get in is usually only ever day one and before.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1070
Ever since I woke up today, I have not found a more ridiculous thing said, than that I am somehow associated with any kind of miners, or mining, or have ever been.

(The truthful arguments grow few and far between, but trying to find and use them, would make the PoS scamcrowd a little more believable.)

So none of the people you talk about that got you interested in XMR were miners or had mined in the past?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
The value of a coin is not found in how much hardware it takes to 'extract' it, but in useful features it offers to users.

You may not call PoS a coin, but a share or a token, does it really matter if it's used to transfer value and pay for goods and services just like PoW coins are used? The end users could care less about those definitions, to them it's all vehicles that have properties of money and can act as money, which is all that matters.

You can duplicate source code of a PoS coin, but you can't duplicate infrastructure and developers. And by the time you can, the network effect has already set in and competitors can't catch up, provided that development of the first PoS coin hasn't stopped, both software and infrastructure development.

It is also important to consider user base and ongoing distribution which can't happen overnight for any PoS clone.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1070
That PoS are called "coins" is a misnomer. What makes digital things "coins" is the real world energy that restricts their creation. Without mining, there is nothing that prevents duplicating PoS schemes endlessly, because doing that is free. With mining, the difference between Bitcoin and mineable altcoins stays clear because the meager demand of altcoins means meager price and less mining.

The inflation of Monero is 2.5% of that of Bitcoin, which is quite a lot. What is even more striking is the energy expended, which may be up to 10% of that of Bitcoin, due to the reason that Monero is mined with energy-inefficient methods instead of ASICs.

All the PoS coins combined, use about nothing to secure their integrity. Also due to zero inflation, there is no balance in the market to restrict pumps and dumps. I cannot understand why anyone would invest in these, except for the insiders of course. See the terms of the IPO for Ethereum for more details.

Digital currency is digital. It doesn't need ENERGY to survive to justify itself.  POS can be duplicated. Just like Bitcoin can be duplicated and XMR can be duplicated. Its called NETWORK EFFECT. The same shit you pedal to tell everyone why XMR is more valuable than Boolberry. But its TRUE. Network effect wins - especially with currency.

The POS coins that have the best innovation combined with marketing will win. The same is true with POW. Only difference is POW has a lot of energy waste that could potentially weigh it down.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
See the terms of the IPO for Ethereum for more details.

Huh

Ethereum is going to be PoW, at least initially. They have said they might switch to mixed PoS/PoW.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
Ever since I woke up today, I have not found a more ridiculous thing said, than that I am somehow associated with any kind of miners, or mining, or have ever been.

(The truthful arguments grow few and far between, but trying to find and use them, would make the PoS scamcrowd a little more believable.)
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
That PoS are called "coins" is a misnomer. What makes digital things "coins" is the real world energy that restricts their creation. Without mining, there is nothing that prevents duplicating PoS schemes endlessly, because doing that is free. With mining, the difference between Bitcoin and mineable altcoins stays clear because the meager demand of altcoins means meager price and less mining.

The inflation of Monero is 2.5% of that of Bitcoin, which is quite a lot. What is even more striking is the energy expended, which may be up to 10% of that of Bitcoin, due to the reason that Monero is mined with energy-inefficient methods instead of ASICs.

All the PoS coins combined, use about nothing to secure their integrity. Also due to zero inflation, there is no balance in the market to restrict pumps and dumps. I cannot understand why anyone would invest in these, except for the insiders of course. See the terms of the IPO for Ethereum for more details.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
Obvious is obvious.

For the sake of the debate stating the obvious shouldn't be done so bluntly Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1070
Which, again, is a very wrong statement. Buyers, regardless of method, care very much if their coin is going to be around in 12 months, and for PoS, this is unproven.

smooth: +1

I agree that many investors want to see the PoS crypto to stay around longer without breaking to invest. My statement was assuming that. And because there is no rush in the mainstream to invest in crypto currencies, although there has been some progress in the past 12 months, there is still plenty of time to prove to new users that certain PoS implementations are at least as secure as PoW.

Look, this isnt fucking rocket science. POS is a direct threat to miners. As MANY of the rpetilia's associates on this forum either were/are miners or where closely associated with miners, there is a nature threat and biased towards POS.

Just like Peter Schiff doesn't like Bitcoin and WU doesn't like Bitcoin and Paypal doesn't like bitcoin - miners and old school bitcoiners dont like POS.

All the other "reasons" are just noise. Obvious is obvious.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
After going from fiat to stocks to gold to silver to bitcoin to monero, in search for increased security, it would be funny to go back to fiat again, wouldn't it?

Fiat is a currency proclaimed and enforced by a government as money, literal translation of fiat - 'by decree'. I am not sure what you refer to when you say "going back to fiat".
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
After going from fiat to stocks to gold to silver to bitcoin to monero, in search for increased security, it would be funny to go back to fiat again, wouldn't it?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
Which, again, is a very wrong statement. Buyers, regardless of method, care very much if their coin is going to be around in 12 months, and for PoS, this is unproven.

smooth: +1

I agree that many investors want to see the PoS crypto to stay around longer without breaking to invest. My statement was assuming that. And because there is no rush in the mainstream to invest in crypto currencies, although there has been some progress in the past 12 months, there is still plenty of time to prove to new users that certain PoS implementations are at least as secure as PoW.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1070
Fortunately, miners are only 0.00001% of the population. The rest have to buy coins, and they don't have a concern if it's PoW or PoS as long as it does what they need it to.

How can you be so sure about that?

While the number is exagerated the general view is true, think about anyone now wanting to get 1000XMR, are they going to buy it or are they going to spend x amount of time mining it and hoping the difficulty doesn't increase etc. Yes lots of people mine a few coins here and there but for the majoirty of people the larger parts of their holdings are bought.

The more questionable part of the statement was the assertion that buyers don't care about PoW or PoS. They might not care about the inner workings, but they damn well care in so far as it affects the security (incl perceived security) and value (incl perceived value) of their investment. To some extent this may be arbitrary or unfair (or perhaps a better word is undeserved). PoS might just has a bad reputation for whatever reasons not based in actual security (and being associated hundreds of PoS scam coins might well be part of the reason), which affects its perceived value and therefore is value. In that case it is still a bad investment (unless you want to make a bet on this changing in the future).





Doesn't matter. With the innovations happening with coins like Nxt, the network effect will win out eventually even if POW continues to exist somehow long into the future. POW innovations are hindered by Bitcoin and the clone universe. XMR is one of the few POW coins doing something exciting. 95% of the rest of the exciting innovations are happening in the POS universe. One day, Rpetilia and other old schoolers will buy POS coins. Just like the gold bugs buy bitcoin today.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
Fortunately, miners are only 0.00001% of the population. The rest have to buy coins, and they don't have a concern if it's PoW or PoS as long as it does what they need it to.

Which, again, is a very wrong statement. Buyers, regardless of method, care very much if their coin is going to be around in 12 months, and for PoS, this is unproven.

smooth: +1
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
How can you be so sure about that?

Reality check! It's only profitable to mine if you have access to free electricity (most people don't), or you're a botnet operator (most people aren't) or invested and keep investing hundreds of thousands of $$$ into Bitcoin ASICs (most people don't, they invest thousands $$$ at best which is not enough to make mining profitable).

The more questionable part of the statement was the assertion that buyers don't care about PoW or PoS. They might not care about the inner workings, but they damn well care in so far as it affects the security (incl perceived security) and value (incl perceived value) of their investment. To some extent this may be arbitrary or unfair (or perhaps a better word is undeserved). Perhaps PoS just has a bad reputation for whatever reason not based in actual security (and being associated hundreds of PoS scam coins might well be part of the reason), which affects its perceived value and therefore is value. In that case it is still a bad investment (unless you want to make a bet on this changing in the future).

The thing is different PoS implementions are different. NXT's PoS implementation is not the same as Peercoin's PoS implementation, which in PoW world would be equivalent to hashrate of the network, hence security of different PoS coins is also different, same as security of Bitcoin's network is different from security of Dogecoin's network. There has been no serious and full assessments of NXT PoS implementation by PoW experts yet. The most they did in regards to PoS was look at Peercoin's PoS and claim that any PoS is insecure, which is irrelevant and not true, because it doesn't say anything about NXT's particular implementation.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Fortunately, miners are only 0.00001% of the population. The rest have to buy coins, and they don't have a concern if it's PoW or PoS as long as it does what they need it to.

How can you be so sure about that?

While the number is exagerated the general view is true, think about anyone now wanting to get 1000XMR, are they going to buy it or are they going to spend x amount of time mining it and hoping the difficulty doesn't increase etc. Yes lots of people mine a few coins here and there but for the majoirty of people the larger parts of their holdings are bought.

The more questionable part of the statement was the assertion that buyers don't care about PoW or PoS. They might not care about the inner workings, but they damn well care in so far as it affects the security (incl perceived security) and value (incl perceived value) of their investment. To some extent this may be arbitrary or unfair (or perhaps a better word is undeserved). PoS might just has a bad reputation for whatever reasons not based in actual security (and being associated hundreds of PoS scam coins might well be part of the reason), which affects its perceived value and therefore is value. In that case it is still a bad investment (unless you want to make a bet on this changing in the future).



member
Activity: 148
Merit: 10
It's better to buy the coin now as the diff has risen significantly
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Fortunately, miners are only 0.00001% of the population. The rest have to buy coins, and they don't have a concern if it's PoW or PoS as long as it does what they need it to.

How can you be so sure about that?

While the number is exagerated the general view is true, think about anyone now wanting to get 1000XMR, are they going to buy it or are they going to spend x amount of time mining it and hoping the difficulty doesn't increase etc. Yes lots of people mine a few coins here and there but for the majoirty of people the larger parts of their holdings are bought.
member
Activity: 148
Merit: 10
Fortunately, miners are only 0.00001% of the population. The rest have to buy coins, and they don't have a concern if it's PoW or PoS as long as it does what they need it to.

How can you be so sure about that?
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