Topic: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL - page 3. (Read 45631 times)

Cross post from Terahash thread as its relevant here

No need to worry about that. Josh loves to gloat about how they're raking in the dough.

5 November 2013

I also did a chargeback through my bank some weeks back.  I would like to toss in the following additional info:

-- The bank immediately credited my account, but they made it clear that this was a courtesy and that the credit is not final until the accused seller responds.  In my case, they could take as long as two billing periods to respond.

-- When I went to Paypal two weeks later and checked the case status (cases were automatically opened when the chargeback occurred), the Paypal status showed "In review."

In other words, it may look like I have got the money but it is not official, Paypal is sitting on their hands "reviewing" the case, and it could be as long as two months until I know if I really have my money back.

In other world news (film at 11):

I also filed complaints with the FTC, the Kansas City BBB, the Kansas Attorney General's office, and the Johnson County District Attorney.  No response on any of those yet.

I have been down the small claims court path in the past, and my own experience is that it is much easier to sue the credit card company under FTC "claims and defenses" than it is to sue the seller.  In this case it is not clear to me whether the seller is Paypal or BFL, since the credit card transaction was paid to Paypal and not BFL.  Perhaps someone with more legal knowledge can clear that up.

If the seller is Paypal, they have legal staff who do their utmost to avoid paying (though there is a wealth of info about how to sue Paypal and win; google it).

If the seller is BFL, collecting on the judgement could be extremely difficult, since the judgement would have to be exported to Kansas and sent to collections there -- and it is not clear that BFL has a financial leg to file a lien against.

If you have to sue your credit card company or Paypal, never sign a "general release."  This frees them from any obligations to you whether past, present or future.  Tell them you will sign a specific release.  And don't sign any confidentiality agreements.  If you win a judgement, you are in the right and they must pay, and cannot put conditions on that payment.

Update 7 Nov 2013

The Paypal status on the chargebacks changed from "In review" to "Closed."  There was no direct indication of whether it was closed by accepting or rejecting the chargeback.  After clicking around a bit, clicking on the "Closed" status produced "There was insufficient evidence to dispute the chargeback", which I take to mean "He's right but we don't like to admit it."

I can imagine the happiness at Paypal HQ when it becomes general knowledge among BFL customers that Paypal actually is eating BFL chargebacks.  Then the chargebacks will really start rolling in.  It would be interesting to know how Paypal will try to get that money back from BFL.  Well, better them doing it than me.

Addendum:  I just checked the order status at BFL, and both of them show "canceled." (sic).  So they do actually know the word, even if they can't spell it.

I have four orders in with BFL, they refused to refund me.

After they placed my orders on hold for no good reason other than I requested a refund, I completed a credit card chargeback for one of them.

I've emailed BFL to see if they will willingly refund the other three but they've ignored all subsequent correspondence so I'm instigating a second chargeback and will follow that with chargebacks for the rest.

Luckily I did them all separately which means BFL will have to pay a fee for each one out of their own pocket. I know it's childish but it is a little bit satisfying knowing that I'm costing them money too now.

After months of trying to cancel my order for 4 Singles (ordered early March 2013) I tried the Paypal route but was denied due to being past the 45 period.  So I filed a chargeback with my credit card.  I did receive a conditional credit back for the original purchase.

BFL still shipped the singles 2 weeks after the chargeback and unfortunately my dad signed for it (I was out of town).  I spoke to my credit card processor who will be asking for an RMA address from BFL since I don't want to ship the singles back to some random address (where I RMAed a Day 1 single that died after 1 week).

I did get the telemarketing call last week but I was polite and didn't yell.  They were of no help getting a refund of course.

I'll see where this goes.  I just finished up a legal malpractice case (I was the plaintiff) so if BFL refuses to cooperate I will see them in court.

How a company can ship something 2 weeks after a credit card processor tries to contact you regarding a refund/chargeback is beyond me.  Left hand, meet right hand 

Shame we don't have more time. A petition from all who where denied a refund from BFL would have been nice to take into court with you.

If someone could draft something up we could get a quick wip round and drum up a small list.

If anyone could knock up a good webform please do so (am not so good with things like that).

Ionstorm, if someone does this would you be prepared to print it and add it to your evidence ?

Regards

Heat is on Joshie 

Post a successful court decision and I'll send you a bitcoin donation!

I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed.  Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court?  If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.

Oh, I know that but our wonderful government is upholding these mandatory arbitration clauses everywhere.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/consumers-get-screwed-scotus-american-express-decision-small-biz

Still doesn't keep companies like apple from putting all sorts of illegal (and non-binding) things in their TOS or license agreements. I'm sure paypal even has a few you could play with if you had the legal capital.

Please always remember that what's written in a contract is not automatically legal.

I believe paypal sneakily interjected a forced arbitration into the TOS a while back, if you didn't opt out you probably can't sue paypal at least in the US.

Or you could go through the arbitration, arguing with a lawyer paypal hires and pays. See how far that gets you.

Because PayPal use the same tactics as prenda/bailiffs/tax people... All illegal practices and when stood up to using the right legalbe's they all back down. Thee BBC fuck off as soon as you record them when they come knocking., you'd think they were all a pedophile ring or something.... O wait, they are!

The whole 'system' people live in works this way, people just don't wantnto open there eyes to the reality that all monarchs, Rothschild's, Rockefeller's and the rest of them are satanic pedophile whores who sold there beliefs and minds to the so called 'devil' trying not to put religion into it. But they believe in Satan so therefore they believe in son of god and god and all that right?

There real messed up people and there a cult. Bfl & josh are cut from the same clothe! This is why there all cockroaches! Dirty cockroaches! Scum of the earth, plaugue of the earth! That's the one!

You have to take paypal to court, difficult but not impossible. It's under £100 in the UK and Paypal invariably settle the day of the case or a few days beforehand. But they like to leave it until the last minute. You can claim expenses and costs via the court so it won't cost anything once they pay up. If they offer less tell them to do one :-)

There are a number of successful cases on other forums if you need addresses for documentation etc. Google taking paypal to court in your country.

PayPal refused me a refund, usual 45 days rubbish, I did a chargeback for my first order and the credit card company put the money straight back into my account within about 5 days. Bit of a pain to organise but worth it.

I've asked BFL to refund the other orders or I'll have to do the same for them too.

^^ THIS!

But people are waking up to the shit hole we've made for ourselves and eventually they'll see the emperor as no clothes

And yet, people keep waiting.
People are stupid

If everyone with an outstanding order refuses to accept the package (no big loss these days). Then that cockroach will be gently squeezed, harder and harder as more and more packages are returned.

What will BFL do, keep the money ? that would be fraud.
Keep re-posting and costing them $$$$ ?
All sales are final,   When they have been delivered !

If you have requested a refund, BFL owes you a refund, if they do not, they are acting unlawfully and when the FTC actually get around to them they will deal with them appropriately. I Hope.

Why hasn't anyone squashed the cockroach?

 Is that a damning indictment or what ? Silk Road was more reliable and respected than Butterfly Labs.

^^

Josh is just a dirty cockroach, hang him with the Rothschild's!