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Topic: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL - page 10. (Read 45589 times)

sr. member
Activity: 314
Merit: 251
September 07, 2013, 01:24:13 PM
You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

 IOW, "Fuck you. I got mine."


Don't feel too bad, my LS is currently making around 0.06BTC per day right now and dropping rapidly.  By October's end this thing will be mining dust.  I've had it running 3 weeks at a cost of 50+BTC and 13 months wait.  I'll NEVER see the 50+BTC I originally paid.
full member
Activity: 217
Merit: 101
September 07, 2013, 01:23:54 PM
Did 1 pre-order and 3 orders. 2 orders was paid via Bitpay, one via paypal in April, May and June accordingly. A few days ago asked refund for 3 orders, got denial with standard reason that "all sales are final". Asked Bitpay to help with refund and will ask to Paypal soon. Additionally sent complaint to FTC.
Will inform about progress here. Thanks for attention.
vay
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1067
Christian Antkow
September 07, 2013, 12:26:59 PM
You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

 IOW, "Fuck you. I got mine."
hero member
Activity: 1493
Merit: 763
Life is a taxable event
September 07, 2013, 12:21:48 PM
You can all close down BFL if you want to, I already got my 30 GH/s original little single
 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

I was only delayed for like 10 months.... Totally reasonable,

When I buy ice cream that is how long I wait (FACT).

The delays screwed us all, but at least the BTC price is super high thanks to the crisis that happened with the banks in cyprus and the whole big bubble incident...

If the prices had stayed at 200 USD levels far less BFL customers would be complaining right now!

hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
September 07, 2013, 03:39:03 AM
Quote from: The BBB
stating that all pre-order sales are final, they can certainly make the case in court that no refunds are due

Sounds like the BBB needs an education in Internet businesses. No sale has taken place, since nothing has been delivered.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Excuses like "your funds are being used" have no basis in regulations. When delays happen (and they happen a lot with BFL), "a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;" and "You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;" are regulations that BFL must abide by.

Yup... say it with me... BFL is just


SHADY!
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
September 06, 2013, 11:14:39 PM
Quote from: The BBB
stating that all pre-order sales are final, they can certainly make the case in court that no refunds are due

Sounds like the BBB needs an education in Internet businesses. No sale has taken place, since nothing has been delivered.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Excuses like "your funds are being used" have no basis in regulations. When delays happen (and they happen a lot with BFL), "a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;" and "You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;" are regulations that BFL must abide by.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
September 06, 2013, 09:39:43 PM
Well, after asking the BBB's investigator for some clarification about why BFL was judged as doing nothing wrong, here's what I got:

Quote from: The BBB
I think if you take them to court, you have a case for a refund. I also think they have a case for not providing one. There's always nuance.

Sections of contracts/agreements trump federal regulations all the time and vice versa. Sometimes regulations dictate that certain agreements are inherently deceptive, and void the agreement. On the other hand (more often), if you agree to certain provisions, regulations that guard consumers no longer apply. They are simply nullified by your assent.

By explaining that your funds are being used right now in the development process, and stating that all pre-order sales are final, they can certainly make the case in court that no refunds are due, because everyone agreed to the terms. At that point, a judge would determine if the company is making a good faith effort to provide the pre-ordered products. This is where it gets tricky because it's completely subjective. How many months should consumers wait for a product that should have, by all accounts, been delivered in May or June? We frequently run into this problem with open-ended roofing contracts, in which customers are waiting way too long for service.  Court cases conclude with varying results on a case-by-case basis.

A few things:
1. I think we all agree that Butterfly Labs made mistakes and angered a lot of customers, especially with their use of "two months or more."
2. Based on their reputation in the industry, and materials they've provided, it appears that they are making a good faith effort to provide customers with the ordered products.
3. It is, in reality, implausible for BFL to retract their funds from development. Even though this isn't the customer's problem, it is a practical hurdle when trying to get a company to resolve a complaint filed through the BBB.

In most delivery complaints, the BBB is looking for the company to either produce the ordered products or provide refunds. In this case, they have consistently said they will provide the products by a specified date. We want to give the company an opportunity to correct this problem before turning the issue over to any regulatory agency. If we hear from you or any other customers that the goal posts have been moved back again, and they haven't made any progress with deliveries by Sept 30, we will re-open the complaints and likely contact the Attorney General's Office about it. But, right now, we think that would be premature and yield little results.

So it doesn't look like they're going to be much help until October, if at all.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1005
ASIC Wannabe
September 06, 2013, 07:21:31 PM
so here is my process so far for refunding a 5Ghash jalapeno purchase:

1) contact BFL for refund - no response after 3 days
2) paypal dispute (after 45days)
3) paypal dispute closed automatically (after 45 day limit)
4) call paypal:
- operator cannot refund after 45 days
- acknowledges that BF Labs Inc. has other complainants and agrees to make a note of my case in their file
- suggests calling my bank to do a cancel/chargeback
5) call bank:
- paypal was a 'preauthorised debit', meaning they cannot reverse after 24hrs
- suggest calling paypal again to resolve the issue
6) call paypal:
-new agent
-explained to her all of the above
- indicates that BF Labs has an 'account manager' (apparently a lot of large paypal sellers have one), and will email my case to that person
----> implied that the account manager has the ability to refund payments and may be able to assist my case
- I am told that I should receive a response from paypal either later today or monday/tuesday after the weekend


I guess we will see what happens. I only paid $332 CAD for my unit, so even if i get no money back and get my product in "two weeks", it is not a terrible loss, but I dont see how I could possibly receive the unit before mid-october, and thats about the time when bitfury will start shipping its $500/25Ghash pre-orders that would be a far better utility of my money

legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
September 06, 2013, 06:26:12 PM
if I paid with bitcoin, how do I get refund from bfl. I mailed them, they denied my request.

thanks for help.

If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at  http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises.
You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms
sr. member
Activity: 262
Merit: 250
September 06, 2013, 05:10:53 PM
thanks for the info. What is the president's email address for paypal? PM me if you dont want to post it here.

update everyone.

I just received this email from paypal:

BF Labs Inc. just sent you a full refund of $2,675.00 USD for your purchase.

It may take 3-5 working days to receive the refund in your PayPal account.

If you have any questions about this refund, please contact BF Labs Inc..

The refund will go to the card you paid with.

To see all the transaction details, please log in to your PayPal account. It may take a few moments for this transaction to appear in your account.

Merchant information
BF Labs Inc.
[email protected]
http://www.butterflylabs.com
913-271-6744
Note from merchant
None provided

So yeah, don`t lose hope Smiley
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
September 06, 2013, 02:41:29 PM
if I paid with bitcoin, how do I get refund from bfl. I mailed them, they denied my request.

thanks for help.

Your best bet is to sell your pre order on. sad but true.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
September 06, 2013, 01:24:52 PM


newbie
Activity: 23
Merit: 0
September 06, 2013, 01:15:10 PM
if I paid with bitcoin, how do I get refund from bfl. I mailed them, they denied my request.

thanks for help.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
September 05, 2013, 11:52:39 AM
update everyone.

I just received this email from paypal:

BF Labs Inc. just sent you a full refund of $2,675.00 USD for your purchase.

It may take 3-5 working days to receive the refund in your PayPal account.

If you have any questions about this refund, please contact BF Labs Inc..

The refund will go to the card you paid with.

To see all the transaction details, please log in to your PayPal account. It may take a few moments for this transaction to appear in your account.

Merchant information
BF Labs Inc.
[email protected]
http://www.butterflylabs.com
913-271-6744
Note from merchant
None provided

So yeah, don`t lose hope Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 265
September 05, 2013, 05:50:22 AM

We need to gather the transactions which where called to be refunded / disputed ... which are refunded through PayPal and the appropriate user, this way each of us can send those


I just called them... after

1. eMail to butterfly labs which got answered by a "No - refund" after 7 days.
2. opened a dispute in PayPal for the appropriate transaction, which got closed because of "45-day" passed.
3. send an other eMail to PayPal trying to get a dispute for that transaction, same answer "your out of 45-day".
4. called PayPal dispute center, got a call center employee which insisted 25 min about the past 45-day period i missed.
5. I asked for a supervisor, which told me after an other 10 min of conversation he is gona put my conflict for a closer look to the an office which checks if there are more of those complaints with this company "BFL".

6. waiting now  Cry

Why we don't just gather all Transaction-ID's which got refunded, opened to dispute ... this list would show how many people really are affected by the BFL fraud ... and would get us something to show to PayPal ... the more we are, the more power we have ! At least we could stop PayPal to work with BFL!

Let's start by this ...

Code:
                                                                             +----------------+------------------------------------------------------+
                                                                             | Butterfly labs |                       PayPal                         |
+--------------------+--------------+----------------------------------------+-------+--------+-------+-------+-------------+---------------+--------+
| Unique ID          | Date         | Amount    | Device ordred              | email | Refund | email | phone | Buyer-Prot. | CC ChargeBack | Refund |
+--------------------+--------------+----------------------------------------+-------+--------+-------+-------+-------------+---------------+--------+
| #8CU60716HR286741V | 28. May 2013 | $362.00   | 1 x 5 GH/s Bitcoin Miner   | Yes   | No     | Yes   | Yes   | No          | No            | No     |
+--------------------+--------------+----------------------------------------+-------+--------+-------+-------+-------------+---------------+--------+
|                    |              |                                        |       |        |       |       |             |               |        |
+--------------------+--------------+----------------------------------------+-------+--------+-------+-------+-------------+---------------+--------+
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1000
September 05, 2013, 04:13:33 AM
I just called Paypal.

The first guy I spoke to was not in the disputes department but he straight out told me that it is possible to get a refund from Paypal outside of the 45 day period.

He then put me through to the disputes department who were not quite as friendly.

At first they told me the usual - disputes are not possible outside the 45 day period. I insisted that others had been getting refunds and so should I. I said many many people had had problems with Paypal and had been requesting and receiving refunds.

They told me they would file a dispute but that it would be automatically closed as it was more than 45 days - I don't see why they do that at all if it just automatically gets cancelled.

I then asked to speak to a supervisor but was told I could not and there was nothing more they could do.

I then played my final card and asked to speak to Aaron (employee id #45731 from Terrahash refund post) - I was then put on hold for several minutes. When the woman finally came back on the phone she said she had spoken to the supervisor and they would review the BF Labs accounts as I said many people had had the same problem - and if they saw a problem I would receive an email with their decision and then hopefully get my refund..

If it doesn't work I am going to be on the phone to them daily until it does.  &%$& BFL!


legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
September 05, 2013, 03:51:15 AM
PayPal claims ... that im out of the 45-day period.

Anyone had success with out starting a CC charge back ... after the 45-day period?

And how?

Thx.

CC charge back isn't possible as it was tooken from paypal funds i had.


I got the same story from Paypal using their online dispute system.  I then called and once they saw how old my account was they made an exception and reversed the charge.  The only advice I can give is to be polite but resolute.  If you hit a wall, call back and talk to someone else.

Persistence pays.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 265
September 05, 2013, 03:14:11 AM
PayPal claims ... that im out of the 45-day period.

Anyone had success with out starting a CC charge back ... after the 45-day period?

And how?

Thx.

CC charge back isn't possible as it was tooken from paypal funds i had.
full member
Activity: 149
Merit: 100
September 05, 2013, 12:24:26 AM
One good reason for a refund:



It's even bleaker for BFL now. That comparison is the Bitfury 1st batch pricing. The next batch pricing for Oct delivery is only $20/GH
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Firing it up
September 04, 2013, 10:40:47 AM
I used to order 10Gh/s from them, but they have failed to provide exact date for shipping out .

I place a complain after two weeks as I think the being should be ready within 45 days. If over than the moment, then you will not be able to do anything.
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