Topic: 0.25 BTC Bounty - Show me a Mt Gox USD Withdrawal :) - page 11. (Read 48867 times)

Someone needs to sue Mt. Gox. Now.

Since they have a registered agent in Delaware, they can be sued in Delaware. Small claims up to $15,000 can be brought in the Justice of the Peace court there.  There's even an interactive form for this.

You'll have to go to Delaware at least once.

Mt. Gox has to send someone to represent them, or they lose by default and you get a judgement against them.

You can enforce that judgement, even across national boundaries. There are international collection agencies.  They take a cut of what they recover, and don't charge you anything up front.

(Pay attention, suckers. You don't have to put up with this shit. You really can take steps which will eventually either get you paid or Mt. Gox out of business.)

They are sending withdraws, they are just backlogged.  They are able to fulfill withdrawal requests, it will just take time.  This is from further down in the same release:

As for my "spreading rumors" statement, it is about 3/4 of the members of this forum who repeat things echo-chamber style and never look into the facts behind what they are repeating.  Don't take it personally.

I've done due diligence on over 370 MM worth of assets in the last 2 years.  Not saying i'm an attorney, but I can definitively tell you when there is a breach of contract.

Coinlab Vs. Mt.Gox

"On November 22, 2012 Mt.Gox and Coinlab entered into the Agreement to service the Bitcoin exchange market in a mutually beneficial manner that provided for stability and liquidity in the market."

"Pursuant to the Agreement, Defendants granted CoinLab an exclusive license in the North American market to use the Defendants' software and other intellectual property in providing digital currency exchange services (the "Licensed Materials")....Failure to comply with the exclusivity provisions of the Agreement is expressly specified to be a material breach of the Agreement."

"Defendants have breach the exclusivity provisions of the Agreement by directly servicing customers in the United States and Canada since the Agreement took effect...The Agreement provides that breach of the exclusivity provision of the Agreement alone provides for liquidated damages in the amount of $50,000,000.00 as a non-exclusive remedy.  The liquidated damages clause was defined at the time of the Agreement because of the uncertain nature of the Bitcoin exchange market and likely underestimates the actual damages incurred by Bitcoin as a result of Mt.Gox's breach of the exclusivity provision of the Agreement."

"Defendants have, in email and other written exchanges, and in public statements to the press, acknowledged that they have directly serviced customers in the United States and Canada since entering the Agreement."


You can read all of the other violations for yourself below.  Even if they settle for a fraction of the amount, they still wouldn't have nearly enough cash.  


http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

This suit will probably be settled for $1-2M.

Ha!  I was the guy that asked the question that got this answer. :-P

Nice summary Zeroblock.

What makes you say they will lose against against CoinLab?  I haven't really followed that story much.

Not exactly. Neither of your quotes above state that MtGox is unable to fulfill withdrawal requests. If fact, the very first sentence of the most recent (7/4/13) press release states, "Mt. Gox is happy to announce that global account withdrawals have now fully resumed as of today, after several days of testing our new system for processing transactions. We want to keep you informed about our progress in this arena, and especially assure our customers that their funds are accessible."

Are you saying that this is the case, and that everything's fine and it's just random chance that nobody has been able to confirm a single withdrawal in the (nearly) two weeks since they released this statement?

It's one thing to say "withdrawals are slow but we're establishing new relationships to speed things up".

Entirely another to say "we're still not quite able to send withdrawals but we're taking the following steps, and will be ready shortly".

Lastly, who was your statement about "spreading rumors" referring to?

It is impossible to know Mt.Gox's liquidity position at this moment, but there are things we know for certain:

1.) Mt.Gox's US entity, Mutum Signum had its accounts frozen.  More than likely a large portion of their USD revenue was tied up in that Dwolla account.  They may or may not get these funds back. I would expect they would have to get their Money transmitter license in all 50 states before these funds could be released.  That would take at least 12 months and $2M in fees/surety bonds(1)
2.) No one has gotten a wire out for almost a month, if they had they would have claimed the 0.75 BTC bounty.(2)
3.) Bitcoin holders are willing to take a 5-10% cut just to move their BTC out of Mt.Gox.  That's the reason why the spread is so large vs. Bitstamp.(3)(4)
4.) Legal defense is expensive.  They are fighting 2 fronts, one with Coinlab, and the other registering as an money transmitter in all 50 states.  They will lose the case against CoinLab for $75 MM.  Even if the outcome looked more positive, no bank would lend them money given the uncertainty of the outcome of the suit.(5) 
5.) Volume is at January lows, their trading revenue won't be enough to cover both legal fronts and operational costs.(5)
6.) Mt.Gox consistently releases confusing and contradictory information, so their "official" statements have no value. 
7.) Mt.Gox used to exchange liberty reserve dollars.  Any entity touching LR dollars has serious going concern.  I can assume they will have some legal issues with this as well.   

With that being said, there aren't many explanations that fit.  But even if Mt.Gox collapses, you still have rather large markets with Bitstamp, Coinbase, and Btc-e, which should be able to provide enough liquidity/volume until some US exchanges become compliant. 


(1) http://thegenesisblock.com/town-hall-discussion-with-gavin-andresen-and-patrick-murck/
(2) https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/025-btc-bounty-show-me-a-mt-gox-usd-withdrawal-251895
(3) http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/
(4) http://thegenesisblock.com/bitcoin-mid-year-review-and-outlook/
(5) http://thegenesisblock.com/mt-gox-withdrawal-freeze-driving-significant-liquidity-concerns/

Maybe because building up his own beliefs looks safer than drinking lies from a random homepage ?

They did:
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130620.html
https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130704.html

Specifically:

and:


But why would people look for information on mtgox.com's front page when it is easier to spread rumors on this forum?

Yes, that does make sense. I'm left wondering why they wouldn't just state that instead of saying they have a backlog and are working to clear it. Anecdotally, it doesn't appear that they are working the queue at all. Has anyone seen a single confirmed withdrawal? Even from outside the bitcointalk.org community?

Time will tell I suppose.

I heard of two people that got ~100k payouts via wire during the suspension. But they knew Tux personally.  I have no way to assess the credibility of the claim.

This thread is terrifying. Has anyone considered that their Japanese accounts were frozen along with (or shortly after) their Mutum Signum U.S. account?

It's hard to believe that they would continue to delay payouts unless they had absolutely no way to send funds, as this debacle is causing significant damage to their already shaky reputation.

They just switched banks because their old bank was not comfortable with the levels of traffic.  Banks move slowly, especially when dealing with companies that have had regulatory actions against them (USG seized MtGox's Dwolla linked account).  The new bank will not allow them to ramp up their volume until they are absolutely sure all the t's are crossed and all the i's are dotted.

I agree.

Do you think the KYC measures are what's causing the delay? I'd have guessed that those are mostly front-end requirements (I know when I opened my account I had to submit passport and other verification docs).

Or could it be the record-keeping requirements? My opinion is that record-keeping is electronic and automatic, so probably not the problem.

What about AML reporting requirements? You could argue that it takes time to "establish and implement policies and procedures that can be reasonably expected to detect and cause the reporting of suspicious transactions". But on the flip side, this is a road that many have already traveled down, and a playbook for MSB's is readily available. Here's an example:

http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/materials/en/prevention_guide.html


I'm curious to know your opinion as to which parts of the regulatory requirements would cause such an extraordinary delay?

There is a big difference between the technical requirements of sending funds and the regulatory requirements of sending funds.  Yes the first part is easy, but it is not the hard part.

Yes.

I had a few wire withdrawals pending from late June (maybe 20th or 21st). After getting the "cut-and-paste" replies, and reading this story: http://www.thebitcoinchannel.com/archives/16164 I asked for the wires to be cancelled.

Of course within an hour or so they responded and the cash was back in my account. Just waited for dips in price and did my best to buy BTC cheap while selling some from bitstamp when it would rise. Overall spread wasn't too bad but it took quite a while to accomplish.

My wire requests were WEEKS old, and I made the cancel request over the weekend. They were able to give me my money back without even checking with their bank. I think when they say "pending", it means they take the funds out of your account and do NOTHING.

Electronic wire transfer offerings are a dime a dozen these days (some US examples below) no bank wants to keep an army of wire-room specialists if they can help it. When MtGox says "backlog", they might be referring to all the wires they haven't been able to send due to liquidity problems.

https://www.wellsfargo.com/com/treasury-management/payables/electronic/wire-transfers
http://www.comerica.com/commercial/treasury-management/payables-solutions/Pages/wire-transfer.aspx

My situation:

Over 12k USD stuck at MtGox spread over 2 wire and 2 SEPA transfers, all in EUR.

Average SEPA delay 21 days and counting...
Average wire delay 17 days and counting...

Replies from MtGox support are copy-paste and they ignore requests for more information on specific status of my transfers:



I believe this cannot be just an inept management/support service - something fishy is definitely going on.


edit: adding a Mt.Gox Support screenshot which says it all...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/873tpnxgijupg7u/chat.bmp

I put one in for $8,000 on 7/12.  It's currently in "confirmed" status.  I'll post here again with screenshots if it actually goes through

Still waiting on my wire transfer from 6/25.