Topic: Account wiped with $64k on Rollbit.com - page 5. (Read 2639 times)

Please see below my draft reply for the Rollbit team, I will be addressing their points one by one in red. Do you suggest I add more content to my email?

"Thank you for getting back to us."

"Talking about this case in a forum is not part of the official complaints process, so we won't be providing replies through that medium, only here."

"Upon further investigation it would indeed appear that it is possible for a mobile data package to determine your IP based geolocation."

"However, that point is moot as you have admitted to living in the UK, a restricted territory. Even if you were able to produce documents that you have recently lived in Luxembourg, there is no way for you to prove that you do not currently live in the UK after admitting it to us twice."
I am able to provide rental agreement, utility bills, residence permit and even employment contract that will prove that I not only was living in Luxembourg at the time of opening the account, but I am still living in Luxembourg.

"Furthermore, there is no IP based evidence that would place you in Luxembourg. It is extremely likely that you would have at least one IP hit over this period of time that would connect you to Luxembourg, but we fail to locate one."

"Is there a reason why you always use mobile data, and do not connect to a Wifi network even in your own home?"
I spend a lot of time at work where the Wifi is capped (cannot access many sites such as even youtube), therefore I always keep the Wifi setting off on my phone, given that I have unlimited mobile data anyways this has never been a problem for me.

"We look forward to hearing from you."

Additionally, I would like to point out that allowing me to complete an exhaustive KYC will shed light to the questions you are asking and will clarify where I was when using the Rollbit account.

you can’t make an easy decision now with all the evidence out yet you did it with Fairlay without giving them a chance to provide evidence. Names, teams, associations are now publicly posted of the fixed matches.

The OP has rental agreement, residence and bank statements. There is nothing that can trump that. This decision can be made now. How would you rule right now if you were the arbitrator and there is nothing else to be presented?

Let’s not talk further about Fairlay. That can be done in the other thread if wanted.

Additionally Rollbit argues that

"However, that point is moot as you have admitted to living in the UK, a restricted territory. Even if you were able to produce documents that you have recently lived in Luxembourg, there is no way for you to prove that you do not currently live in the UK after admitting it to us twice."

Proving that I am still living in LUX will by consequence prove that I currently do NOT live in the UK.

thanks for the clarification. If the OP admits to playing from the UK, the penalty seems stiff that all winnings can be confiscated. I think it more fair to void winnings while in restricted areas. If he won all his money while in LUX and then starts playing from the UK, he should be paid winnings.

First of all, thank you all for your inputs.

To address the Wifi point, I spend a lot of time at work where the Wifi is capped (cannot access many sites such as even youtube), therefore I always keep the Wifi setting off on my phone, given that I have unlimited mobile data anyways this has never been a problem for me.

Moreover, I appreciate that the documentation @holydarkness suggests would be very helpful. However, the only way for me to prove a negative (prove that I am not residing in the UK) would be for me to provide my latest utility bills showing that I am actually living at my place in LUX. I wouldnt have a way to gather the documentation you suggest, as I am not yet officially moving (it has been agreed with my boss but they havent kicked off the internal HR process) - I stated I already resided in the UK as I naively thought that this way I would be able to get away with withdrawing the funds without completing KYC.

On the IP issue with the UK, the reply will be the same as for the Spanish provider, but they are still to get back to me with a more detailed response (I will update here once they do). I have to stay that I brought up me travelling frequently to the UK to explain why I have a UK SIM, not to imply that I ever played while there (although I dont think there is any way for me to prove otherwise). As the same questions can be raised as to if I ever played from Spain (which I didnt).

Provided they have accepted the IP location part, I believe my strongest defence is proving that I actually live in LUX, providing the residence permit, my rental agreement and monthly bills, my Spanish ID and my employment contract if necessary - this will place me in LUX at all times.

I did not know whether Rollbit accepted the contents of the email and either way adding a screenshot of the output from his phone browser will not take time. Still, if that part of the issue has been resolved because Rollbit have accepted it, that is a good thing and the other issues can be addressed.

Part of what this incident has shown is that the terms and conditions can (rightly or otherwise) be used as and how any casino deems fit. Though not specific to this case, what seems to be the case is that if a member has used the service to deposit and withdraw from an accepted location there is no problem but on a few occasions for example while travelling to a location for a holiday or family visit to a restricted location and decided to either place a bet or withdraw, it could cause a problem but depositing funds from restricted areas would not be a problem until they use it as part of their case to withhold funds.

Add to that the issues of EU roaming IP addresses then the matter becomes more complex because casinos can apply their terms and conditions with any interpretation they want.

The hard block restriction for UK users was only recently added, (around the middle of June afaik), priror to that there was a warning as follows:
"For legal reasons, this website and its services are not available in your country. If you are using a VPN, please disable it and try again" - This message would appear every time the user loaded the site, and they would have to close the notification in order to use the site.

The hard block for UK users as mentioned has only recently been put in place, likely to better direct users to the upcoming UK Rollbit site.


From my knowledge of sites, although its stated that you must reside in the allowed region, if you are using the site from a restricted region (the OP admitted to playing in from the UK) that is also a breach of the TOS as the site does not have a license to allow the user to play there.

Oh, look at that, some casinos actually made a better detailed ToS regarding restricted territory and residency. When the case initially arised and I gave an explanation about how those residency works according to some casinos' representative, IIRC, there was some interesting discussion about how will it affect the player's financial report, tax-wise. I guess this tackles it, so kudos to SB, Stake, and Pinnacle.

Now, moving to your post, that quotes above prove that you are wrong, not just for the sake of argument, it is the fact. It's clearly written, what three of them [and other casinos, though they might not as detailed as above] consider as a resident is someone who located in or within the country. It doesn't need those earlier requirement of residency you insisted and persistently lectured me. The second someone set foot on that soil, they're considered to be located in or within that territory. I'm not here to rub it in, though, so I take that topic to rest, glad it's cleared to you.

Next... me and gotcha moment? Looking for a little thing to hold on to? What do you even mean by these? If I have to repeat, which you can prove yourself by re-reading the entire thread [this time, try to not wearing that myopic glasses of "holy always taking side of the books"] I literally tries to get OP free from this "hold". I suggested ways for him to show Rollbit that his case worth reconsidering, that he didn't breach ToS here. I suggested way for OP to convince Rollbit to pay the player. Get that "Holy always side with casino" idea from your head, and you'll start to see this thread from different perspective.

As for who will I rule for at this point and me avoiding that question? First, I'm not avoiding it. It's missed simply and purely because I don't even realize it's a question. And second, as I've also repetitively answered on way too many different occasions, I am not calling a decision/ruling. I deemed myself not wise enough to know what transpires behind each and every cases, both sides always hide something, so I prefer to questions and ask for proof until one thing became evident.

For the sake to prove it to you [and anyone who questions my side, though I honestly think it's just you] that I am not defending Rollbit or that I didn't have OP's best interest at heart ¹, here, it's what I wrote to Razer when OP gave me a go.

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¹guess sharing my side of PM is allowed and won't be considered as a breach of privacy? And if I am not mistaken, the rule said sharing it for the sake of investigation is allowed? Well, since I am being investigated here...

Sportsbet.io Stake Pinnacle
Stake, Sportsbet and Pinnacle all use "or", meaning there is a difference. Even if I'm wrong on "resident", for the sake of argument, you are just looking for gotcha moments just like any scam book looks for one little thing to hold on too. Look for reasons to pay the player, not for reasons not to pay the player. For the 100th time, he said he was a resident after playing, not while he was playing. You're looking for another gotcha moment for the book by repeating over and over again a clip of what a poster said, ignoring that he said after playing he became a resident. Who would you rule for at this point? I noticed you are avoiding it.

How did he play from UK?

that's exactly what I tried to convey and made you understand. That's what I suggested OP to submit to disprove his own statement. For the love of all holy and dark being. Let me try again,

OP made a bad decision by giving a statement that he's a UK resident. Regardless of the meaning of resident that OP gave, be it an extended stays, a short visit, one [week] night stand, he admitted to Rollbit that he's in UK. OP instantly violates Rollbit's ToS by his own statement because they'll assume OP accessed Rollbit with those two big feet of his on Canary Wharf or somewhere else. It further proven by Rollbit's detection of IP that's pinged to UK instead of LUX.

As it seems Rollbit uses this against OP, I proposed OP to disprove his own statement, that he's not staying more than what his working hours require, and commutes back to LUX when it's over [thus, the chance to actually play from UK is significantly smaller compared to if he's there for extended period like being on permanent basis]. I honestly don't know what to suggest to OP if Rollbit asked him to prove that he's truly never, not even once, played from UK, perhaps during his lunch break, and I really hope we don't have to come that way. Though I've propose it to you, suppose you have a good way for OP to prove this.


Oh? What did Ahoy said about resident?

AHOYBRAUSE, my apology, it seems you're dragged into this [I assume] rather unwillingly. But do you mind to tell us what exactly the definition of residency you gave to Peeps?

And no, Peeps, it's not my opinion, it's an explanation from several casinos. It is what applies throughout casinos. I am not the one who make that rule according to myself. It's simply a "fact" of definition agreed amongst casinos.


Great. I wished you good luck and we can hear from Razer from your side.

How would you rule as is? Rollbit has IP. OP has resident, rental agreement and bank statements saying he's a LUX resident at the time of his play.

Rollbit should geo-block instead of tricking posters.

I read your stuff but it doesn't matter. I took the resident argument from AHOY. Go with your definition of resident. The OP moved. It would have been better if you sent it for better chance of reply, but I sent this

Did you... even read my long text? Yeah, I know it's long and boring, perhaps can be shortened out to few paragraphs, but those entire paragraphs consist of all of crucial information. The bottomline, though, casino's [many casino, not just rollbit] term for "residency" simply refers to the place when someone accessed their platform.

It's not about duration [I've explained above, not sure if you actually read them], it's about where your feet stepped on. The instance you step on UK, you're not allowed to play. The instance a Londoner leave UK, they're allowed to play.

And if it helps [few of that "long paragraph about this" I brushed earlier, of which I've actually explained once or twice in the past], those restriction and rules is not because a casino doesn't want to do business with a country. It's not because Rollbit hates The Queen, or Biden, they simply have that rule in order to be compliant to the country's rule.

They don't have a permit to conduct business in UK and those other territory. They can't legally cater a round of BJ for a Japanese tourist who visited UK because they don't have legal body and permit to cater gambling activity in UK.

If you still insist on those residency and visa as the one that apply, then I give up. I don't think that worth my energy. I'll advise you to familiarize with threads on this board, though. Those situation with "residency" and what they're defined according to casinos [thus, indirectly, this board] has been discussed on several cases.

Resident is different than citizen. It really doesn't even matter since it all occurred after play. If you are living somewhere, it doesn't make you a "resident". You have to be in the UK at least 183 days. Even if you want to use the term living at and resident interchangeable, it doesn't matter. Let's say I'm wrong on "resident".  Your resident argument isn't good unless play was at the same time. Why don't you just ask Razor what type of information would help the OP's case?


https://immigrationlawyers-london.com/uk-residency.php

https://www.expatustax.com/residential-status-uk/#:~:text=Automatic%20Residence%20Test%3A%20If%20you,re%20automatically%20considered%20a%20resident.

If you tries to argue that "it talked about territories, not IP", then I would have to reconsider the worth of my past, present, and future conversation with you.

And I'm glad you're talking about me being confused about resident. I wanted to brush over it when you talked about it before, but decided against it. Now that you're talking about it again... are you sure you're understand the term about "resident" here? Is it perhaps [it actually crosses my mind and I've been really curious] you mixed "resident" with "citizen"?

To make things clear, my understanding about "resident" on this specific matter, as well as what I believe applied by many [if not all] casino is not about people's nationality, it's about where their feet set place when they accessed the casino. Couple of casinos even describes nicely to me that [I don't recall the exact nation each of them gave me, but let's just throw random names and random casino here for illustration purpose] suppose a Londoners plays at Rollbit from his home, this is a violation of ToS. But when that Londoners, someone with UK citizenship, fly to Singapore or to Japan and accessed Rollbit, it's acceptable. Likewise, when a Singaporean or Japanese is on UK soil, they are not allowed to play on Rollbit despite their nationality and/or they're only staying for a short moment that the official rule of a country group them as a tourist instead of a resident.

Thus, OP, a Spanish with LUX residency permit [not Lux citizenship] is allowed to play in LUX. However, the instance he returned to Spain or when he commute to UK, he is not allowed by ToS to play on Rollbit when their feet [or any limbs, really] is on that soil.

This is not just Rollbit. There are past cases about this topic on different casinos, someone with accepted nationality commute to other [restricted] country and they got banned. And if you must know how do I be certain that many casino apply this rule, it's because the first time I learned about this, I actually asked one casino's insight about residency policy for a case with competing casino. They both gave similar explanation for their own rule about territory. And then another casino, just to be sure.

I believe I've made it known on many occasions to many frequent overseer of this board. I can explain in long paragraph about this, the why they do this and all, but I don't think that'll be necessary for now [and certainly won't be necessary if what I feared above is true, that you'll insist IP is not territory]

Now, moving to OP's real situation. He "admitted" to Rollbit that he's a resident of UK, further strengthen with the IP addresses log that place him in UK. Regardless of his true living arrangement [that according to him he's still having Luxembourg as his base], both point open to an interpretation that he lived in UK, he stepped and walked on UK soil, he breathed UK's air, you name it. Again, not necessarily a citizen of UK, he simply only need to stand on UK's soil and accessed Rollbit from his device, and that's a violation of ToS.

This is what we're discussing, this is what we try to help OP to disprove, that despite his IP address said UK and he made a statement that he's a UK resident, he's actually yet to have UK as his base, he's still living in LUX, he only commuted to UK. To disprove his own "admission" of being UK resident [which instantly broke Rollbit's ToS] that I suggested those --check notes-- hell and high water documentation.

bump for holydarkness. I don’t see anything about IP address. And you aren’t understanding the legal meaning of the word “resident” where the OP may have meant living. Or he may have become a “resident” after playing there. If you want to help the OP, and don’t want the OP to be dragged through hell and high water, then ask Razor what would help. What you think may move the dial may be irrelevant to Rollbit.

That "unnecessary documentation" is a suggestion for OP since he asked for advise on what to provide to make his case moving. As Rollbit currently highlighted the issue where he made a statement of being a UK resident, best way [IMO] will be to disprove his own statement and allows him to retract that, effectively forcing Rollbit to accept that OP's statement is not true and they have to reevaluate OP's case, thus [hopefully] the enhanced KYC.

If the process of providing such documentation that allows OP to get his situation cleared requires OP to go through hell and high water, then as long as he doesn't mind, I'll be more than happy to drag him over boiling pot, shards of glasses, flaming red charcoal, and perhaps poke him with Lucifer's own pitchfork myself. Keyword: as long as he doesn't mind.

Those three points, the "unnecessary documentation" I wrote were that: suggestions for OP to get through with this situation, it's explicitly stated if you bother to read carefully. So again I ask, how do I take book's side?

I've asked you if you probably have a better way to assist OP, to disprove his own claim of UK residency and to prove that not even once he ever played within UK soil. Feel free to pitch in if you have a better idea, as it'll apparently be a fluffy, silk-soft road.


And at this point I honestly not sure if you have a complete understanding of the situation. There is a ToS about where the bets generated from, it made IP addresses relevant.

That is the exact difficulty OP faced. He made a statement that he's a UK resident, he has UK IP on his log, it made him violated their ToS, and Rollbit held this statement against him. Unless we can disprove his own statement, that's the ongoing narrative. Nowhere, not even in civil court, such a written statement implicating self can easily be striked without strong basis, and that's what we try to do: to help OP prove that he has never accessed Rollbit from UK

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I'd like to think that... well, to be completely honest, "think" is not the right word, it's "hope", since I honestly can't predict where will this case goes. The way I understand it, Razer has handed the case to their compliance team since OP also escalated to their support channel other than this thread [it's also indicated on the last screenshot OP provided, where Rollbit state the email will be their means of communication], so he didn't have any control over the case anymore [this practice is quite common, where a higher-ups of a casino let their department made their decision, and the higher-ups won't [or even can't] turn the decision made]. I don't think Razer even following this thread anymore.

So, that above said, I'd like to hope that once we can help OP disprove his own previous statement about being UK resident, Rollbit will have nothing against him anymore and would have to allow him to do the video KYC, or whatever enhanced verification that will sort this situation out.

OP, Petermario, how likely is it to procure such documentation I previously asked? Or, if you'd like other path to pursue, can you perhaps tell us your situation with wifi? Perhaps the true situation behind it was not as "malicious" as Rollbit assumed, and perhaps sharing it here will help.

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Umm... the situation with Spanish provider is --I believe-- already cleared and it's no longer an issue. Vodavone gave an official email, explaining that even if OP accessed the internet from LUX, his IP will still show as ES.

I am new to this thread but have read up on most of the details and do feel sympathy for you because $64,000 is a lot of money.

When you stated there were never any issues when you deposited and withdrew around $60,000 over a two year period but on this occasion when the sum reached $64,000 it became an issue, this is something all casinos and gaming websites should look to improve. If they can block withdrawals based on their terms and conditions then surely they can block deposits on the very same terms and conditions too.

This does seem extremely harsh and unfair.

For clarity, if you are currently in Luxembourg, can you use your phone with your regular Spanish sim and open a browser without using any sort of VPN and then take a screenshot of what you see when you visit this website: https://www.whatismyip.com

According to the screenshots you provided earlier, it should be showing a Spanish IP address because of EU regulations (even though most would have thought it would be a local Luxembourg IP address) but a screenshot can settle the issue.

Nah man, I seriously doubt holydarkness is taking the casino's side. He is always very unbiased in cases like this.
The only problem here is the silence of Razor. Why is it so hard to make and extended KYC process?? OP clearly is ok with that and wants to show any proof imaginable to show his side of the story, yet rollbit doesn't even react on that.

It is ok to have doubts about OP's honesty but at least give him a fair chance to prove his point instead of make a bold statement and pretty much make a verdict without a trial. This is a lot of money we are talking about. Rollbit is a rich casino and he is just one of thousands of (mostly losing) players. Treating a player like this should be a warning to everyone considering playing there and trusting the site with their money.

You are taking the book's side by making the OP go through hell and high water with unnecessary documentation instead of questioning Razor. You have a closer relationship with Razor than I do, but this is the type of question I’d like answered.

Razor,

The player has submitted his resident permit, rental agreement and bank statements. All show that the player is a resident of LUX. Rollbit's ToS allow residents of LUX to play. The ToS state nothing about where the bets were generated from making IP addresses irrelevant. Is there anything else that the poster can submit to change your position?

If you feel that it's a waste of time and it's better spent on others, then by all means, please do, no one is stopping you from removing yourself from this thread. I'm staying, though. Because for the third [at least the ones that I explicitly said instead of being clearly implied, or is it the fourth?] time said on this thread, this is me trying to help the community.

Because contrary to what you believe, though I've repetitively say it to a point of being redundant, I stood on neutral ground. Always do. If I'm on books' side, I'll have been leaving from many posts ago, given "it's futile to try and convince Rollbit". Why do I still need to stay? I've won, "my side" won. I've got what I come for.

Hell... to unnecessarily overemphasizing the ridiculousness of a statement that I'm taking book's side, this case opened with me notifying Razer and attempting OP to get another chance to prove himself, both onscreen that can be read by public here and "off-screen" through PM correspondencies with OP and Razer, which ultimately leads him into the email path.

That's me taking a book's side?

So, my suggestion before we part ways, in the future, if you ever bumped into me again in other thread, and you happen to question on what side I am on in every cases, remember this and know that outside of what the forum member can publicly read, I'm doing so much more and exhausting way more than much method to ensure every player submitting their complaint here are given at least a shot or two.

Those not-necessarily-dirty laundry aired, as no one stopping you from leaving, no one can also stop you from staying. Clearly. So if you happen to have made a long walk and have your head cooled off and decided to jump back in to help OP with the situation, extra pair of eyes will always help.

If the chance of you ever make any further post on this thread, be it to help the player or anything else, is infinitesimal, before you leave, to pacify my curiosity, what are the answer for all of those question, especially after my overly-self-praising statement above? Pure curiositym really. Those me being always taking the book's side and [more importantly] my suggestion for OP to reply to Rollbit?