Topic: Alpha Technology Litecoin (Scrypt) ASIC Miner Order Batch 1 Now! - page 104. (Read 529056 times)

man I'm so glad I got my amex refund and got away with my $$$ back from these dorks....they illogic/denial and just plain stupidity is boundless!

but watching this thread is like sitting around an 20 story apartment fire hoping others sprint out of the doorway to safety and join the few here who at least
got a cc refund....kinda hard when the fire dept is alpha and they are spraying the fire with gasoline don't ya know ...claiming no no ..its water!

this whole thread and alpha in particular is 'disturbingly fascinating'....but I get the sense if I stare at the 'logic' they are using in their
lack of ethics/denial/history of the TOS and other shenanigans...I may be mesmerized enough to be sucked into their twisted logic...
thus warping my fragile little mind trying to follow the thought process that somehow they can take 30% of your cash in a protected manner
and only deliver the product if you pay the last 70% in an unprotected manner...add the fact there likely will NEVER be a product and thats
when the further logic of alpha's thinking starts to  breakdown in detail ..I can only hold so much denial in my mind at one time
I just can't multitask denial........well they lose me at that point...stock options...only if you paid in full...no
chips yet ..because have to re-do the tapeout....the mind literally boggles at their madness...

it is like it is lord of the rings over there at alpha with their 'non-refundable' 'my precious' $$$ clutched in their hands as they fall into the lava
the self destructive dark side of the force it strong at alpha...they wanted to make a big 'splash' in the asic world...well that is not going to
happen ..so their ego's must be massaged so if they can't make a big splash..they will make an even more spectacular SPLAT...

I mean get a clue!

(back to reading this thread and having a snack....FML ..this thread is interesting if inherently EVIL.....hope there are no long
term mental issues following these dorks......I mean if they can just make stuff up like this..hey I can make up that I'm in a relationship
with Katie Holmes...(closes eyes concentrates...nope did not work)...damn it!

somehow they can do it....alpha I mean... self delude at an almost super human level....I .must have this Jedi mind trick to fool myself into the "happy place" that
I'm dating 12 super models.....alas.....logic prevails in my case ..and fails in their case...and now I'm out with alpha refund..but no way to
learn their anti-logic secret so I can 'ahem amend' my reality for a super model harem...curse you alpha you have done it again....your
super human denial of logic and reality has killed this dream of mine as well....fiends they are!

moving on

Searing

I believe its probably the family address. So I would expect to find Mubasher there.

The business argument doesn't float. You CAN mine as a business but you don't have to. Cryptos are not considered a currency by HMRC so these are not money making machines. That would be like saying a 3d printer is a money making machine because I CAN sell the items I produce. That is not the case. Cryptos are more like stocks. I can and have invested in a stocks at the start of the year and sold them for a profit at the end of the year. I pay Capital Gains Tax on the profit as an individual I am not a stock trading business this is a one time event.

You can mine coins and hold them for years, you will only make a chargeable event when you sell them and that will be a capital gain which can be done as an individual. If you mine and dump your coins every week for income THAT will be a business. Alpha have to PROVE you were going to do the latter to say you are a business. As they have not mentioned this caveat anywhere in their terms or made even the vaguest attempt to identify you as a business, this will be almost impossible.

Also, they initially said they complied with the DSR, but that it didn't apply to deposits. Only after this argument was picked apart did they change to "you are a business". Moreover they have breached their T&Cs several times which makes them null and void and totally unenforceable.

Personally I wouldn't formulate your arguments here in a open forum. I suggest Alpha customers communicate via PM. We know Fiaz lurked here and Mubasher probably does too, you don't want to give him the heads up.

 Retro has, and is invaluable in this aspect. The problem is we need a fully concise document as a claim, and no one has done this. As I stated earlier, we really need this as a baseline, and if I am the first to hit them with it, we can modify it and change approach as needed depending on outcome.

 Basically, first time they lose, they are fucked and will fold as anyone can simply cite that case.

Its easy to show dat this isnt business.
You purchased a device that is worthless and this you did know at the moment of purchase (difficulty will rise). You never will hit ROI, you will only do losses and you did know this at purchase date. Its more a hobby for you than making profit with this (Sense of business). You would like to collect coins (as others collect stamps etc...) , and you did not intend to sell them. But you decided to change your hobby, you would like to fly RC helicopters, drive RC Cars, play drums, etc...



BUT use other arguments also:
-> They will sell a different product than ordered. (No PSU, no WiFi, ...) So they changed the specifications. But you do not want to install cables in your flat/House.
-> They didnt deliver as promised with an update.
-> Look back some pages (retro and others have provided good arguments)

 Actually I have to disagree. You are not considered a business by a simple purchase. Example, My wife drags me yard selling, I find a comic book I know is worth $1000 and pay a dime. I then sell it for $500 that same day. In no way shape or form am I considered a business. I simply have to claim the extra income on my taxes.

 Another example... I buy a Collectors Edition Diablo game for $90. Suddenly someone is willing to give me $250. I sell and claim the extra income on taxes. That is not a business. 

If you are earning extra income then you are running a business - the term 'business' has a only a very loose meaning in the UK. It does not mean the same thing a company, which requires registration and needs to submit accounts to a national record.

I could go online now,and order 1,000 units of something and if my intention was to resell then that is a business venture and I would be classed as a sole trader (basically doing business but under my name and with personal liability). It does not need to be full time or long term. The difference between a 'business' and a 'company' is massive - a company has lots of rules where as a sole trader business has virtually no enforced regulation. There is no concept of a 'business licence' in Britain.

As for court representation, I do no think that you can go through small claims track without being physically present, the underlying concept is that basically the judge decides which of two witnesses he will rule in favour of. It's informal so it is less of a legal battle and more a case of convincing the judge that you are being reasonable and deserve the outcome in your favour. There is unlikely to be anyone else present other than the judge, you, AT and a clerk - and it will be in a small room with only a desk (more than likely). I'm not an expert but even if you could have someone else represent you, that is not in the spirit of the small claims track and would count against you (although I doubt it is permitted).

 The problem I see with that is you can earn extra income without being a business. You simply claim it on your taxes. 2 machines would not qualify you as a business, nor any amount for that matter. I can prove I do not have any business license, nor any tax id.

 Correct me if I am wrong, but someone (perhaps on this forum) could represent me in court due to the obvious travel reasons.

 Also, I could travel and represent myself and claim it towards the claim as I had no other means of recovering the funds. I'm down $6500 USD right now, and the maximum at current rate in USD I can go to small claims in the uk is about 13,390.

Scrappy Do: you basically have no choice but to attend the hearing. There is nothing you can do other than to be present on the day. You can't win in court without actually going to court....

The small claims track is such that it is necessarily informal, meaning that ultimately you have to convince the judge that your story is more credible than theirs (Alpha Tech's). You do not have to prove something beyond reasonable doubt, as in a criminal prosecution, so the general gist is that you want a refund & that you feel you are entitled to one by DSR, and that you are not intending to operate the hardware as a business venture. The key point is that you have to demonstrate that the DSR's apply to you, because that is basically what this hinges on. You have to be able to show the judge that you were not buying this piece of equipment from a money-making (business) perspective.

That, I think, could be tricky - although the onus will be on AT to demonstrate that the purpose of the machine is to make money, so presumably they will have to give the usual bitcoin lecture to the judge and convince him of the money-making argument.

It comes down to when you bought this hardware, what was your intention to use it for? A commercial venture? Is there any other explanation? If it was mining indeed, then I think you will struggle to claim that you were not acting in a business capacity at the time you paid for the item. The fact you claim to be a consumer needs to be backed up in some way, and that you would use the device solely to generate income will almost certainly be the defences argument. You need to convince the judge that isn't the case. Because there is no proper registration procedure to act in a business capacity as a sole trader in the UK, you may find it hard to refute the fact that this was bought for any purpose other than mining and income generation. You could alternatively claim you didn't understand the agreement you were entering into, perhaps.

Compare this with buying a piece of specialist equipment used for physical gold mining (unless it was a spade, which is probably similar to a GPU in that it could be claimed to be used as a consumer product). Could you claim to be a consumer? Only if you could somehow argue that it was not a commercial venture, and planned to get gold from your garden to wear personally (and not sell) - which doesn't apply to bitcoins.

In case you accept that you are acting in a business capacity (in your own name, Joe Bloggs, ie as a sole trader), then your argument will be completely different - it will be that the terms of the original contract have been breached and so you are entitled to a refund. Alternatively you can challenge the exclusion clauses in the original contract (which, coincidently, have at least in-part existed from day one - so AT may cite this as evidence the implication was B2B and you should have read the terms more carefully), this is different and you need to challenge the terms under the Unfair Contract Terms Act, saying the terms were unreasonable. Your argument would centre (probably) on the following two points:
1. The contract was standard form and not individually negotiated between you and AT.
2. You didn't have the bargaining power to negotiate better terms.

 Working on pictures of all the documents sent to me. I really need some help with this as I know damn well they will reject mediation, and if they do it would be impossible/unfeasible for me to fly to the uk for such a claim.

Edit here's a link, they are backwards the way they were sent, so start from the bottom. http://imgur.com/a/2IbnV

 We need a fully drawn out claim against them. Has anyone compiled this yet? With citations? I would gladly donate well for such a document.

 Ok guys I need some help. I just got my papers back, and Alpha is defending the claim I had on them. They sent me the paperwork for small claims track. Is anyone at this stage? They used the same shitty ass copy and paste response as a defence in this claim. Also their response is different than the original tos. I need some help guys...

Here's a link, they are backwards the way they were sent, so start from the bottom. http://imgur.com/a/2IbnV

Well, I did point out they hadn't shown any hardware. They still haven't, but at least it looks more legit. I stress the word looks.

If you've got several million of customers' money, putting together an empty case with your logo on it is not expensive. Nor is glueing some PCI-E power boards to the back.

Where is the hardware? The chips? The boards?

my amex card was way more then 120 days and they jumped right on the fraud/dispute stuff...mainly for non-delivery and also imho because I paid 30% down
on a paypal product and the association of my amex cc protection and then alpha said I had to pay the remaining 70% via no paypal or cc and via unsecured
method...that again imho p/o amex big time...still can't find out what they did/said to alpha to get my refund (may not have done anything and alpha missed
the 2nd deadline at 30 days rather then the first deadline at 45 days (on this bill they sent on 44th day)
..which they responded to with a bill looking like the 30% was a full payment...thus I lost
dispute #1 ..made another with the above info won that dispute)..so heck call someone else up try to make another dispute..see how it goes with a different
angle

I'd really push it and see how mastercard treats fraud..yell for some higher ups in the food chain there but the regular reps...if they somehow let you get a hold of fraud
dept just offer to make a dispute to give them info...even if they won't take your claim..you may get lucky if they see the merchant TOS with them has
been violated....etc

but again point out that others (me) an amex customer it was like more then 5 months and that amex found fraud on the part of the merchant in that alpha allowed
me to pay 30% down with cc option and promise of remaining payment the same way
but then will not refund you unless you send them unsecured funds for the missed date vaporware equipment and
you feel it is extortion..they get the last 70% via there way or the highway or you take a 30% loss
..again ..amex got on this because it was in i think amex view a front end vaporware scam that they looked by association to be
a part of the fraud....freaked them out a little in case other folks used this method of looking legit with paypal and amex then bolting for the hills

if YOU HAVE to as a last resort go thru paypal..1) say you want to report fraud..detail it all out to the rep alpha's tale of woe and games they play
make them forward it to the fraud dept..if they agree...(they did with BFL but told me after 12 months past from my order to call them again...this
was at 7months or some such...went no place in my case)

2) the fraud dept will PHONE YOU UP or not..if yes you have a place to vent and perhaps get them to refund anyway....after you do that you can
do this next step but you have to (maybe?) go thru fraud dept first not sure...but anyway

IF THAT DON"T WORK...your last chance is to ask to contact someone on the PAYPAL EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE it may be hard to get an email and such
but place an emphasis that this is one going fraud with paypal and cc companies looking complicit in the front up $$$ protected then boom not protected
on last 70% etc.. you could get lucky or not...

SOME people back in nov/dec 2013 when BFL offered NO refunds or anytihing....got this done by going before the 9 individuals on this paypal executive
after it hit bitcontalk imho the comittee got overwhelmed..did not matter anyway with the mad rush
at that point BFL changed banks etc to block paypal from getting any more $$$ or so I was told by paypal back at the time I tried this nov/dec 2013..
ie I would have gotten $$ thru this paypal exec committee but no more funds BFL could access or so I was told (probably by accident she maybe
should not have told me) but paypal could get no more $$ out of BFL at that point in time (man was i pissed soooooo close missed it by a couple days)
there is an old bitcointalk on it someplace here I think..and the crushing disappointment when the tap went dry


(i did eventually get a refund by luck...probation hearings on BFL employees and the class action suit on a monarch upgrade ..but that was just dumb luck)

anyway find out if you have equiv executive committee type stuff with master card .they got to have a fraud dept ...work that angle I can't see
master card or paypal putting up with vaporware sales of 30% down and no secured method to pay the last 70% or you lose it all....I mean come on
alpha does not even post its phone number anymore! If not well you can vent and at least know you did the good fight (i gave up after dec 2013 on
bfl got a refund another way...but felt better I tried even when I was sure (and still am) that hell would freeze over before a BFL refund..needless to say
I now think of hell as a quite pretty winter wonderland as a result

good luck these are at least angles I've tried (did not work) but hey...wtf do you have to lose>?

Anyway all I have hope it helps .....

Searing

It sounds to me like the chip has been entirely re-designed and sent to fab. That's the only thing I can think of for them to drop off 2/3rds of their original quantity of chips per board, and maintain the same (or better) hashrate. Which would mean.. total crash and burn first time around.

Well, at least they have a case and some progress in that department, and it looks stamped so at least it appears they were working on that for more than a few days. Regarding the PSU, originally it was to be inside the units, then they were going to put it outside, then they removed it from the plan altogether and were going to have customers provide their own, and now they said they would include them, but it appears they'll be external.

This brings up a teachable moment for Alpha and others. Without folks who've been here from day 1, and others who have been aggregating this info, nobody would have a timeline today of the progress. You know, that basic feature of project management and transparency where you lay out your goals and plans and let folks know if you've made them or not? Instead of just providing nebulous updates of "soon, things happen."

"After further consideration we may break the Scrypt boards into multiple smaller boards because of the size of the current boards and thermal reasons; this is being evaluated right now. In all likelihood each Scrypt board will have 12 chips instead of 36 chips as planned earlier."

Ehmm... So at 250 MH/s  with 1,4 Mh/ chip they will need 15 boards....will they fit?

Hmm, couple of immediate observations.

1/ TEN PCI-E power connections?!

2/ didn't they in the previous update once again change their mind and say the PSU would in fact come with the miner be internal to allow rack mounting (as they tout in the update)? That case in the pictures requires external PSUs purely from the placement of the of the PCI-E power connectors.

3/ Holy airflow restriction batman! With the front and back with those tiny holes that thing is going to overheat in a second!

4/ They say they are redesigning the PCBs again to move from 36 ASICs to 12 per board, going to be a lot of boards in that case, and I guess that means all the pretty CAD lego drawings of PCBs they provided in the previous update are now completely worthless (like everything else that comes from this company).

lmfao...did anybody receive the "development update".  You know at this point I just have to laugh.  Here's a quick summary in case you've missed it:

"As I mentioned in previous updates we are comitted to 100% transparency.  As such, here are some pictures of the case we've standardized upon for our vapor boards.  Vapor chips still on schedule for 2nd of Nebruary release!"

[pics of a REALLY REALLY nice looking empty case with a couple of rockin FANS!]

I wonder just how much longer they plan on trying to maintain this illusion of actually doing something.

Thanks again!  I owe you some rounds of beer if you're ever in Chicago.  Is the residential address that you listed for Mubasher or another Alpha employee?