Topic: Alpha Technology Litecoin (Scrypt) ASIC Miner Order Batch 1 Now! - page 153. (Read 529056 times)

So Alpha-T is honest and everything is fine and on Track. The only Problem are there Customers...

By the way: Huhu, TheDoctor and Fiaz, try to ban me from this forum !

For those of you that were banned from the Alpha site,  here is the complete post from the Doctor.





On credit card processing and a personal note... 

« on: July 18, 2014, 09:00:24 PM »


Like Unlike Quote


The card processing feature has temporarily been pulled down.
I was asked to give an update about it as I had been busy with the implementation and communicating with you all since I started working on it, so: sure, i'll get you an update.

Could make a blabla post of course with lots of sunshine, rainbows and unicorns all over the place...
... But transparency is what has been opted for since the start, so I'm going to make somewhat of a personal note along with a semi-official announcement from Alpha regarding the ability to process cards. It will not be a cheerful post.
And be careful... The post is not for the faint of heart and might scream "TL;DR" to some. But I hope you will read it in full.
Parts of this post contain somewhat of a personal rant about how I vision things, those are obviously not necesarrily the opinions of Alpha Technology.



The problem in this case pretty much is that the cryptocommunity seems to be like a self-fulfilling prophecy, potentially causing the issues they're so afraid and nearly forcing it upon themselves.
On a variety of sites, all scrypt mining corps have been burned down, pretty much every single one of them is being labeled as "a scam", even while all contracts are still perfectly and strictly being adhered to. (At least, in terms of Alpha. I don't really know how well other miner manufacturers are adhering to their contracts...)


- The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come true. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

Due to all the doom mongering, the card processors already have highly elevated (and slightly discriminatory imho) extra measures against companies selling mining equipment. (That's also why it took much longer to get a processor up in the first place, *a lot* of documents to show, sign, explain, etc.)
And after some fiasco's in the industry and the paranoia, on a personal note I can't really say that I blame them.
Those extra, and pretty damn high (pardon the French) if I may say so, hurdles have been overcome by Alpha (which should really mean something...!); but the processors are slightly getting cold feet here now, due to the bizarre community feedback they have apparently acquinted themselves with. (Would have been easier if they had seen that earlier.)
It does force them in a rather annoying position; after all they are the ones that have to handle the crapstorms with people trying to back out of contracts or when it indeed is/was a scam or contracts are not really being adhered to.

Alpha has received the request to negotiate stop accepting credit card processing as frankly put: the feedback from the community as a whole (so let me carefully note: not from this forum nor Alpha's clients per se, but from the entire cryptocommunity: all sites, newsflashes, etc.) is scaring the living hell out of the card processors.
They're very much afraid that the crypto community is indeed a self-fulfilling prophecy (frankly put.), where contracts are being made; but then payments are being charged back prematurely by people getting cold feet; which in turn could cause cash-flow issues for the manufacturer, whom will die from that as a result due to not being able to adhere to the contracts with partners (read: pay them) and thusly can't deliver to anyone; including to the people who did not back out of their contract but *did* hold up their end of the deal.
Basically, people getting cold feet while halfway in their contract due to self-proclaimed experts, a lot of which are very agressive, shouting "SCAM!!", would be the cause of the company going to hell. They themselves would cause what they're suddenly afraid of... And fulfill their own prophecy. And then as the company could not deliver due to the problems the fear mongerers caused: everyone goes on to be happy and will self-righteously claim "I told you so!!!", while in reality it should be "we caused it to be so!!!". Which is *the* classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. (But will probably claim I'm wrong and make very agressive hateful posts, once more. )

In Alpha's case, that does not seem to be the scenario though. (Well... Other than getting a lot of hate; the self-fulfilling prophecy won't be hitting Alpha.)
There's some flexible options thanks to the awesome partners, and Alpha has (as far as I know from what I've been able to see) paid for some highly crucial parts out of their own pockets. It could make quite a loss when the final product is ready and not enough people finalize their order as agreed per the terms: but the miners will still be there anyway, and people who did pay in full as per the terms will most certainly receive 'em. (And then orders can be opened up to mitigate the initial losses by filling 'em up with new clients, I guess.)
It's all covered and already risk asserted, as far as I know...
So even despite all the hate trolls making it very hard for any mining company to even exist or survive: Alpha is holding it's head above the water.
So as a client... You should probably be glad the hate trolls were not able to completely destroy the market just yet. (And then refuse to blame themselves.)


Anyway, as a result of that self-fulfilling prophecy theory, card processors are not really eager to process cards as they're afraid people will (ab)use cards to do premature chargebacks to try and back out of the contract they signed up for; and they'd have to deal with going back and forth between the card issuers and Alpha. Alpha on one side simply adhering to the contractual obligations and what was signed up for and bringing that in as an valid argument, and on the other side the card issuer acting on behalf of the client who is trying to back out prematurely. (Which, when attempting a chargeback, is breaking the contract; so the card issuer will have trouble filing a legitimate chargeback and lots of communication may ensue... Which costs a lot of time. And as you all know: time is money.)
They're simply not really interested in that.

I can understand their position, accusations are constantly flying all over the interwebs towards pretty much all companies (trying to) getting in to this market; ever since the BFL debacle initiated a paranoia of epic proportions. (Understandably so by the way, I don't blame the community for being very wary, scared and extraordinary careful when it comes to companies making mining equipment; I fully understand. People got screwed over one too many times I guess... But non the less: it looks like the community lost faith in humanity as a whole and some of them are downright unreasonable because of it, heh.)
I mean... What they're seeing and saying is true. No offense intended here, but there really are a large bunch of people (elsewhere, by the way!) that are screaming "scam!!!" while not a single contract has been broken till date. Let me repeat that: not *one*...


For those people shouting "scam!", in other places on the internet than here really, let me remind you (and perhaps you should grab a dictionary if you want to play field-expert):
A "scam" is when someone deliberately is trying to steal your money. It's not a scam when contracts are being adhered to for the full 100%, but the company simply isn't doing something in the speed and/or manner that *you* would love to see... That's not a scam in any possible way. When a company adheres to the contract, it cannot be a scam. That's simply you not being satisfied with the speed (eg: you had hoped for sooner shipment... But then you shouldn't have signed up for the given terms in the first place as you *knew* it could happen and it *could* even be as late as the last day of Q3... Don't sign up if you didn't really want to or didn't want to finish the ride! And for the record: all signs point to it that shipment will not even be close to end of Q3, but *far* sooner than that, but fact remains: Alpha wouldn't breach contract when shipping on the last day of Q3... Keep that in mind.); which is somewhat ironic if you look at it... Whilst I'm sure the irony will not be seen nor appreciated and some people will probably say I'm a clown and get, despite that being rather very hypocritical, very hateful on my and/or Alpha's ass:
Attempting a chargeback while the contract/terms you signed up for are still perfectly being adhered to, means the person filing the chargeback is scamming Alpha at this point, rather than the other way around... (Yeah, I know. That's a bold statement. But it is true. You signed up to an agreement, doing a premature chargeback is illegitimately taking money away from Alpha. *That* is much closer to a scam than Alpha is... Call me an ass if you must, but it doesn't make what I just said less true. )
If Alpha would not deliver the equipment and run away with the money: Yes, that would be an absolute scam. Absolutely. But that by far isn't the case here, not a single contract has been violated by Alpha that I can see; and the miners will become available and will start shipping. Just because you're paranoid, doesn't make your thoughts true.
Even while not getting all the funds: they're still here, doing business and working their ass off for their clients to get their products on the shortest notice possible, whilst Alpha is not getting what they're entitled to... I'm not sure what else a company has to do to show that they're working for their customers.
Alpha has from the beginning stated how and what and clearly put down in the contracts what can happen. They warned about it from day one. Yet, some people who apparently took the plunge anyway, or didn't at all but still want to spread hate, are now backing out because they suddenly realized it could take a bit longer than they hoped for... And then, for some inexplicable reason, proceed to call it a scam; while it's certainly not Alpha backing out of the contracts here...
So, who is scamming who? Keep the slander to yourselves. Unleash your fury if Alpha should ever break those contracts, doing it now is just... Silly. Kindly phrased.
Stop dwelling in the past... Or *prove* me wrong. I'm looking at both sides objectively and I can't do anything other than conclude Alpha is currently still strictly on par with their contracts and as such: not a scam.


Anyway, back to card processing;
So, as a result and as Alpha isn't really looking for such trouble either: it was determined to be best if credit card payments are to be suspended effective immediately, to prevent the risk for a distorted relationship with credit card processors in the future and to prevent having to invest a lot of time in to potential chargebacks as Alpha really has better things to do (like getting your mining equipment ready...); the risk assesment teams of the processors are right: there really is quite the elevated risk when you look at the general consensus in the cryptocommunity in terms of the attitude towards miner manufacturers...
Here on the Alpha forum, the mood is quite cool and a lot of reasonable people are around. (Props!) But on other sites, that's not always the case.

As such, the ability to pay with Credit Card has been pulled. The processors are simply far too scared and do not want to support the pre-order model.

I'm not even sure if Alpha really had a choice there (read: I'm pretty certain it wasn't really a choice.), if they would have said they will continue processing (or attempting as such) despite the concerns, I doubt that would have remained being possible.
I really doubt Alpha was really given an actual choice, but at least it was presented as such by the processor; in a respectful way and without definitive judgements and keeping all options open and actually even guaranteeing the ability to process cards in the future.
It was asked very nicely, for which the processor deserves a lot of kudos!! ... And they gave certainty that CC processing will be available in the future.



!!PLEASE NOTE!!:
As it would certainly be unfair that some people will have been able to pay with their cards (which could give an advantage) but others will not get the same chance, or that other way around: some did pay with their cards, but now see other clients can potentially get more time to pay (which would be equally unfair, really.): everyone who paid with their credit card in the past few days to finalize their order should be receiving a full refund of the amount that was paid in the past few days, and your order status will be reset to Pending.
This equals the score, so to say; we don't want to give some people paying with credit card an extra advantage; not to the ones who paid with their card in the past few days, nor to the ones who didn't pay but wish to do so in the near future. (Bitpay and Bank Transfer are *always* open to everyone, so those people are not affected by this anyhow.)
It has been determined that this would probably be the most reasonable solution, and also a method to show that Alpha is not greedy and solely running around to catch as much as your money as possible, but simply wants to take the most ethical approach whilst waiting for delivery and credit card payment options. (They will get to the greedy part part when the miners are shipping. It is a business, after all.)
... Now I do understand that this choice may also make some people angry/dissatisified. I guess no matter what Alpha would do in this case would result in a few dissatisfied people, so I guess all I can do is ask for your understanding for the reasoning behind this choice and why it was made.


The ability to process cards will return on the day shipping starts, *maybe* a few days in advance. (Will keep you updated.) But I doubt it will be much sooner than that...
Alpha Technology will not offer other payment options than Bitpay, Bank Transfer and Payza at this time.
(And yes, Payza is highly limited for credit card processing. ... For a variety of (the same) reasons. Still, you *can* pay with the afformentioned options, so it's not like you don't have a choice.)
How this will affect your ability to pay, how it affects shipping (que) and how it will affect the "two weeks" deadline and whether or not they will force to pay with any of the other available methods or allow you to wait with paying until shortly before shipping: that is something for Alpha to figure out, and they will let all of you know soon how that will be handled. It's not my call, nor can I read their minds.
So, for that aspect: please by all means do not jump to any conclusions, do not get any fear for your order: please wait for Alpha to make a release about what the next step is for those who want(ed) to pay by card. I'm not sure what Alpha is going to do there, and frankly that's not for me to handle.
I'm assuming that will be released along with a planned update on the miners.

I wish the cryptocommunity best of luck. Because with some of the attitude I have seen in some places around the net lately... I hope the more level-headed people I have seen will always form a majority, those twho think twice and are able to stay objective in between all the trolls. That way: there certainly is a bright future. But if the hate trolls and paranoia will take over the entire community and it is being ran by fear and hate... Then I fear it will die a slow and painful dead.
And I sincerely hope that will not happen.


Alpha sincerely apologizes for the potential major inconvenience this may cause to card holders, but if you really want to "rage" about it: don't aim the arrows at Alpha for not processing your card, but at the insane accusations flying around, and potential premature chargebacks being executed, by members of the crypto community as a whole whom are the cause of the, in my opinion rightful, fear that the processors now have for anything even close to being associated with the term "crypto" and the term "pre-order".


Last but not least... As I do need a cheerful note in here
I would like to applaude the clients, and there are thankfully many of you like this around here, whom are level-headed and immune to the troublemakers.
The clients who *do* adhere to the contract they signed up for are probably the ones actually making it possible for everyone to eventually get their product. (And note: for the people not being able to pay due to CC being pulled from being available to pay with: I'm not saying you're not holding up your end of the deal!! Let that be very clear!! It's not your fault.)
Its you guys who make it possible, and you really deserve a round of applause and a big thank you for that from everyone.
You guys rock, and I take my hat off to you. Stick to what you signed up for, finish the ride together with Alpha. Well done!
And I very much understand your frustration with the lack of awesome news, and on behalf of Alpha for as far as possible: I'd like to apologize for that.
But... From what I understood: That news will come quicker than you might hope for now. Things are in the works, and should be released to you on short notice.
The miner manufacturing is not affected by this course of events.



If you read my post in full: thank you very much.
Please let me remind you that large chunks of this post are my personal vision and do not necesarrily reflect the opinion, nor is an official statement, of Alpha Technology.
You're of course free to disagree with me and form another opinion. I do hope you will keep it civil if you do not agree.


Have a nice day, and no offense or hard feelings to anyone!
Despite my straight from the heart words; I can understand where the paranoia comes from. Just don't let it run your lives...
... And be glad Alpha is resistant against it, despite how hard the scam shouters are making it for them, and the other start-ups, to be successful.

Thank you to *everyone* who has read this, whether you agree or not, and whether you are angry/doubtful with Alpha or not.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Despite me not agreeing: I do respect your opinion, although I don't respect the way some people on other boards express it.

Have a very nice weekend!!!

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 09:05:51 PM by TheDoctor »

So basically, they've lost the card payment option because of charge-backs and their inability to be transparent and keep customers informed, and then have the nerve to blame the cryptocurrency community.

heh I wonder if it was me 'sicking' my amex rep lady on to that they were taking cc etc...I assume it was others winding up their cc companies
on the fact that if they are taking their cc via the bank they could also refund via such...thus an 'oops' by alpha and cc option is now gone

we will see if it is that or truely a temp glitch here soon i guess

Searing

I agree with you that it didn't start as a scam.  And it is not a scam per say, but they have made a lot of bad business decisions and rather than admit to it and face the music honorably, they have made excuses or were silent when questions were raised.  Recently they have been entrenching themselves, deleting posts and accounts, banning customers for asking questions.  They have become very defensive, even hostile to customers that only what legitimate answers. If they acted honorably and stated that they made mistakes most customers would be satisfied, but instead they delete the post or ban the account.  That is deceptive and that is borderline criminal.. They may not be a scam but they are surely an evil company.

BTW - notice that side stepping in that quote.  In bold.

^^ this.

I can't believe the gall of the guy. The "doctor" is an appropriate name as he seems to have a PHD in BullSh*t. Well "Doctor", if you'd like to pull you head out of your arse you might see that If Alpha hadn't been such a shambles from the start they wouldn't be in this mess.

It wasn't the community that lied about UK consumer law
It wasn't the community that has lied about only selling to businesses while directly targeting consumers
It wasn't the community that has stolen money from its customers
It wasn't the community that secretly changed their T&Cs to the detriment of its customers
It wasn't the community that has failed to provide a significant update in over 2 months
It wasn't the community that has systematically deleted posts and banned customers for asking legitimate questions. Even on other forums.
It wasn't the community that deleted its posts and presence from every major forum
It wasn't the community that decided to wait till the last minute to cobble together a CC provider

You want someone to blame for your ills, you might want to look in the mirror buddy.

It's interesting to note your initial card provider was supposed to be Lloyd's Cardnet. I suppose it's the community's fault they didn't want to touch you with a bargepole? I suppose it's the community's fault you couldn't get ANY UK issuing bank to touch you and you had to go to the Netherlands to find a CC processor?

Here's a thought, maybe with all the rejected payment requests your shoddy code served up, your payment processor decided to take another look at you, and didn't like what they found.

Your post is typical of what to expect from Alpha, blaming everyone else for your failings. Personally I think your customers have dodged a bullet. You will now have to deliver a product before you receive payment maybe this will push all you folks at Alpha to be less arrogant and start treating your customers with respect. Although with the current price of scrypt coins and the cheaper hardware starting to flood the market I would think your chances of success are pretty slim, especially if you think you can get away with charging £6540 for a 250mh/s miner.

Alpha-T can start regaining the trust of the crypto community by re-instating banned customers on their forum and providing an immediate, full and factual update by a company officer including:

a) information on any financial problems the company may be facing
b) information on tape out and the status of wafer production
c) information on the development status of the Viper including realistic performance estimates
d) a realistic estimate of actual shipping dates
e) a statement suspending any unlawful limits on the rights of refund

Without this information, their customers can not decide whether they want to exercise their contractual rights to refund.

SHOW US THE PRODUCT

That's good. I don't think they are scam. Simply some things went wrong and their main problem is lack of open communication. They started to lie, hide the truth and that is unacceptable. I do believe you will possibly get your miner - we just don't know when and who will be the manufacturer. It is also not acceptable to refer to T&C where only customers have obligations and Alpha has only hopes and disclaimers releasing them from any, even intentional negligence.

i dont agree and that post is actually reasuring me.It shows me somebody is taking us seriously and is doing his best to make things happen



This is for everybody and not specificly for you:

I have said this on multiple ocasions: dont call them a scam until the shipping date has passed (and then some).

There might be some complication that we dont know about, but the crypto community uses thew word scam way way way to quickly.When i made Ultracoin i was also attacked by a legion of trolls and it drove me nuts, and my intentions were good.

And he is actually right, all these people shouting stuff is turning credit card processors away.its a circle.....

there have been some wrong choices like banning people and stuff but that is no  basis to call it a scam.Lets just give them more time. i am in a hole for the big unit which is 10000 dollar and i cant loose it.Let`s be patient.

they have always said Q3 and anybody thathas fingers can see that that is between juli august september, that has not passed.

there is a thing called auto suggestion,if you look under every rock for a scam, then all you will see are "bad omens that its a scam".

but the truth is nobody can know if its a scam until 1 oktober

Doctor from Alpha forum.

https://forum.alpha-t.net/index.php?topic=792.0

"In Alpha's case, that does not seem to be the scenario though. (Well... Other than getting a lot of hate; the self-fulfilling prophecy won't be hitting Alpha.)
There's some flexible options thanks to the awesome partners, and Alpha has (as far as I know from what I've been able to see) paid for some highly crucial parts out of their own pockets. It could make quite a loss when the final product is ready and not enough people finalize their order as agreed per the terms: but the miners will still be there anyway, and people who did pay in full as per the terms will most certainly receive 'em. (And then orders can be opened up to mitigate the initial losses by filling 'em up with new clients, I guess.)"


Another lie as Fiaz stated previously that 70% of the orders is fully paid! So they want to convince everyone this is not enough to show working prototype or at least some components? That does not make any sense. There is much more bs in this post but everyone can read and draw the right conclusions.

Fiaz diary 22 May ad 2014

We’re happy to inform you that development is finalizing and we are on track for shipment in July. We will soon™ receive our chips at which time we will have finished up on development and can begin assembling the devices.
Therefore, it is now time to collect the remainder of the funds for your order(s).

[...]

A reminder of the benefits of being a batch 1 customer: Being able to order first as well as free shipping for batch 2, 10% off any future batch of your choice and free cloud hashing from our cloud mining service (we are not ready to release details yet but know that the reason behind this is to match potential competition).


Enchantments of the past.

Malik means 'King' in Arabic. The Malik clan hails from Punjab and Gujarat. Bangalore is in Karnataka. A lot of them moved to Karachi after Independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik

Akram is also an Arabic surname. It means 'Most Generous'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akram

No need for such a clause.   

It would be highly illogical to go for such a drama and suspense losing so many customers along the way.

Another good laugh from the Alpha-T forum

In the thread https://forum.alpha-t.net/index.php?topic=770.0 (Screen shots of working unit)

User blumatrix asks:

Fiaz says:

Notice how Fiaz ignores the second part of the question. Most of the posts over there read like the customers are intimidated and afraid to be seen to be critical or doubting of Alpha-T lest they get banned by mighty Fiaz and his remorseless ban hammer.

The thread continues:

User chillifinger asks:

No reply from Fiaz … no doubt he is now in a meeting with the Moss Side office of the firm of solicitors ADLE Ltd. (Artful dodges, lies and equivocations) planning their escape route.

On the other hand, maybe they will announce they are shipping an upgraded 750mhs Viper on Monday to all their customers …

In another thread (https://forum.alpha-t.net/index.php?topic=756.0, Global Foundries, what is the status ?)

User Biffthegerbil asks:

User Phzi later comments :

No answer from Fiaz. The thread is over a week old.



Does anyone notice a pattern here ?

From Fiaz in the Alpha-T forum: https://forum.alpha-t.net/index.php?topic=766.25

"Please stay on topic. This thread is for issues related to paying not for deadline questions."

What a prat !


Looks like a bunch of lemmings customers are trying really hard to walk off the edge of a cliff over there right now ...

Reading between the absolutely huge red painted lines of their new T&Cs. They HOPE to ship in Q3 + 90days:

They have also removed the 30% deposit and now want the full amount. They are not allowing refunds after the unit has shipped, once again breaking the law. To top it off they haven't even dropped the prices to make them competitive with the current offerings.


So you might not see you product for 6 months or more, you cannot return it if its a POS, its vastly more expensive than anything else and you now have to pay 100% up front. Apart from the fact that the Vipers have a time machine that can transport you back to Q2, I can't see why any new customer would buy from them, especially with the other companies out there. These guys are a joke.

I'm almost sorry I didn't pre-order, as me and my ex bouncer brother would be camped outside their door with a rubber hose and a tube of KY by now. I think this is the death knell for Alpha, they are trying get as much money as they can before people realise they're screwed and they shut the doors and piss off to Bangalore. All aboard the refund merry-go-round.

People need to simply report these people to every applicable authority. Period. Flush them out.

If you cannot operate a run-of-the-mill credit card operation, what hopes is there in running a highly sophisticated ASIC product manufacturing operation?  It all comes back to that filthy hovel they call an office, zero pride in workmanship, filthy street right outside its door, dilapidated crooked signage, flaking fading paint. Pull up your socks and shine your shoes man. This is all a reflection of you.

I wonder why people keep asking when there will be the delivery instead of asking why there will be no dispatch in July. They can answer that i presume.