Topic: [ANN] "BitBaY" Commission Bonds thread! - page 6. (Read 16670 times)

I agree but the problem is there was 11BTC raised in 'shares' and now there is allegedly just 4.125BTC remaining with Cassie because Justin stole 6.825BTC.

I do not have high hopes of this project succeeding while Cassie is trying to maintain control over it but there is chance it could succeed if Vesper, Daemon and possibly a couple of people nominate themselves for the Project Manager role and one or more are elected.

If I were a shareholder, I would just get my funds and leave, Not worth it going through this again.

@Vesper
I understand the situation regarding unforgiving schedules. I am also under a mountain of workload and time is of the essence. It would be good to hear your views about the trusted coders you mentioned.

@Daemon
I will try to respond to you now via PM

Cheeky I am unsure who you are or what your angle is but you are not helping at this point you are just fueling the fire.
The frequency and the nature of you post are starting to make you look like a troll. Me giving up here is not a option and it never was.
If you want to help great but at this point your not doing the project any good. So either contribute something positive or take a seat.

Haven't had time to fully read over the PM/info, I will sometime today.

Cheeky, I appreciate your comment/support. I would like to be a large part of something like this but my schedule is unforgiving at the moment with other projects. I will evaluate the situation, and talk to some trusted backend coders that I know, who are actually in midlevel and seniority for this sort of thing--not right out of college.

Daemon, if she hands over the BTC to you or Vesper to launch your own BitMit site then her involvement in the 'project' ends as she has nothing to offer in terms of knowledge or skill.

I think it is the investors who deserve fairness nor her because this whole sinking ship of a project is at the state where it is because of her complete and utter incompetence so far as her business acumen (or lack of) is concerned. She is not letting go of the shareholders BTC because it is the only thing she has to hold leverage over the investors.

She should accept that she cannot deliver anything. She was using your funds to get a rent-a-coder to make the site and she failed miserably at that too because she cannot handle deadlines and project management.

Let her continue with her 'project' with her own funding from her own money, we wish her success and we will all help her out as and when we can with advice and tips but the bottom line is she should return the remaining 4.175BTC and allow you to develop your own BitMit.

I will respond to your PM later when I get a chance. Thanks.

@vesper and @Cheeky

You have a PM from me that I also included Cassie on.

Please respond via PM when you have a chance.

Thanks for your time.

~Daemon

Just an FYI I am back for a time and in discussion with Cassie... while you have a very attractive offer on the table Cheeky... to ask Cassie to step aside with what equates to a 1% profit per week payout... i can say that any of us here in her shoes would also scoff at that...

You may think otherwise... but please... have a bit of patience while we try to hash out something beneficial to everyone involved... and even given the trouble that has come to this project... Cassie deserves some fairness.

Communication and clarity are forthcoming... you have my word on that.

~Daemon

My apologies for further delay on a meaningful post... I have a retail location completely down system wise and that is sucking up all my time.

Since I need some time to finish that... I would suggest everyone involved post a well thought out response to the above stating your position given the information provided recently... this way I can definitely post something worthwhile and can further discuss what to do with Cassie and all commission share holders.

Feel free to PM me as well.

~Daemon

I've managed large projects before--far exceeding the scope of this site--and currently provide services for very powerful customers. Analysis and bottom-line facts play a key role in what I do, and I'm well regarded for what I do. I could provide a paragraph of highlights, but suffice to say, this type of PM work and analysis is familiar territory.

I mention this not for pats on the back, but to say that from an experience standpoint, what Cheeky is offering is what any venture of this nature truly needs, especially at a time like this. Frankly, I don't trust any of justin's work at this point. I have 0% confidence. He's admitted guilt to felonious crimes on a federal and state level--do you want him being a part of your project ?? You realize you will be drawn into this, don't you? The entire project is in jeapardy of being seized if charges are filed. Neither of you are out of the crosshairs, and no LLC backing (especially uninsured as it was), will keep you out of trouble.

Additionally, and this is what's more astonishing: seeing such valuable offers being proposed to help prop up the venture (via Cheeky) being dismissed by you. It truly degrades the confidence level in your capabilities. While I admire your tenacity and drive, it is long overdue to pass the leadership torch to someone else. If you want this venture to be able to stand up to the public onslaught (criticism as well as the actual web traffic and attacks), you should be jumping all over his offers. It makes me wonder why you aren't.

You haven't provided a business plan, outlined any general business strategy, much less any of the tactical outlines to accomplish the work--all things which Cheeky has done. There needs to be a more detailed timeline with milestones and goals, it needs to be updated regularly. You need to do all of this, and despite being busy, you need to provide the updates to us.

There's no reason you couldn't still be a large part of this, but certainly not in charge of the entire project. Your "first hire" was a disaster, but things happen and you move on, it happens to all of us. To allow him to come back and finish the job? That shows poor management taste and questionable project execution ability.

So far no other investors have voiced their opinion either way, but several of us have all said the same thing: The time has come to pass on individual majority control. At the least, what has been discusssed by Cheeky and Fox needs to be implemented immediately.

I am tempted to reply to Cassie after she declined my donation offer and made a cheeky (excuse the pun) remark about her wanting me to 'reel it in' but being the gentleman that I am I will wait for your reply before posting further just to see where this is going...

@Cheeky

I was able to read about half of your post before I am being pulled away.

Suffice to say I like where you are coming from... and I do not disagree with what I have read thus far.

Please, give me some time to get back to this and respond accordingly.

@Cassie

You are aware of what you and I have discussed so far and Cheeky has struck upon just that... it is time for someone else to play the Project Management role and I would gladly take such a role along side any other investor (or anyone who has donated... that might be you Cheeky) to make this project a success.

@Everyone

Take a moment, and as an investor, read what Cheeky has put together above... I would not expect any of you to just assume you are forced to continue as investors, but the fact remains there are still some insights that need to be made clear of what funds lie where. As such, allow everyone involved a bit of time to state what they have to say... it is truly open forum time IMHO and if I am to be a part of managing this... I want to hear from you all and give out the proper information so things are transparent.

I will be back later to post more... I do apologize that I can't do so right now.

~Daemon

@Daemon

Thank you for your response and insight. I appreciate you trying to shed some light on the situation. There is no picking you apart agenda here... you invested your money and you are suffering as a consequence of someone else's failure when all you did was to trust them. I agree with your stance that you want this project to succeed as it is the only way you and others will get your money back.. well, either that or go to the police but it seems you want to avoid bringing the law in to the matter.

First of all, I did not see any reply from Cassie to me of any substance in either this or Justin's failed fork thread. As I tried to post this reply I noticed Cassie replied. I have read it and have modified this post accordingly.

Secondly, I sincerely hope that the faith you have in this project proves warranted and things work out for you and all other investors IF that is what the ones who have invested want to do and stay. Ideally, those who do not want to hang around after the farce should at least have their money back and if that is not possible it opens up all sorts of issues surrounding what happened to their investments in the first place!

Having said that, I am baffled somewhat because you felt you had to question Cassie about Justin's post yet she did not feel the need to raise the slightest possibility of him coming back on-board with investors beforehand and did not notify anyone? Surely after the debacle the only way he should have been allowed back was with a specific mandate granted by the investors and only if he returned the BTC he took with him.... even then surely he would not be trustworthy.

To date, nobody has made it clear how much of the BTC he took and how much she had, of which how much was paid to the other programmers who she claimed would make her site. It now seems by going on her latest post Cassie has 4.175BTC of your investments in her possession. Going by the first post she made in this thread it seems 11BTC were raised in exchange for 258 shares. That means Justin stole/took 6.825BTC of your investments and had the cheek (no phun intended) to say Cassie cleaned out his wallet. He seems a compulsive liar...

By Cassies own admission the following people have no investment with her yet I think she stated a few pages back she will honour their shareholding, I think:

2'nd Round: 0.075 per share. Sold: 91 shares. Total:  6.825 BTC

vesperwillow - 1 Shares [Paid]

marty19 - 50 Shares [Paid]

Vega - 10 Shares [Paid]

aysyr - 20 Shares [Paid]

reader31 - 10 Shares [Paid]

Daemon, look at this from another perspective... here is an immature young man making a malware infected website (surely a crime in the US of A), posting threats to kill Cassie, swearing at her and then it seems going on to (possibly) launch a DDoS at her residence, on top of the fact he admitted to taking BTC when he left the project and then admitting to using your funds on his own personal use. Even if he allowed back in to the project to just finish of 'this and that' it will not repair the damage done to his reputation.

If your group of investors are happy to carry on putting your trust in Cassie then go for it but surely from this point forth she cannot and must not be allowed to take any more unilateral decisions. If she intends to remain as project manager then surely she must consult with the investors and then go with the majority and there is no way Justin should be allowed back now for any reason.

Did anyone ask her why the 'new coder' who gave the psd image did not code anything? She should explain these things herself and not wait for people to ask her what is going on! Project Managers know what to do and how to treat their investors.

Personally, I think Cassie has demonstrated she should not be leading this project and that is not by malice I should add, it is more to do with her incompetence and lack of business acumen unfortunately. Surely you or another investor, or maybe a team of two or three investors can ask Cassie to by all means stay and play a part in the 'project' as a shareholder where she can take a back seat allowing you or someone else to administer it, where she is part of a 1x shareholder = 1x vote.

Think about it Daemon, if she also wants the best for the project she has to accept Justin should never have been part of this farce again and if there is still approximately 4.175BTC remaining with her and you seriously firmly believe this project could work then surely someone else has to take over and hope it can still go live.

As of yet, it seems neither Cassie nor Justin have purchased any shares! The only hold Cassie has to stay within this project are the 4.175BTC funds that belong to investors.

As I have always well documented, I have not invested in this project and I am thankful because I am not at all impressed with the soap opera goings-on. Having said that, I can however make a very bold commitment as a gesture of good faith if you believe this project still has life in it.

Here is a donation (not investment for shares) I am willing to make just because I would like to see some success especially if some investors feel they would lose all of their investment if they gave up, or they felt they had a chance of getting something back if the project succeeded and went live. I want no cash, no BTC, no shareholding in return but just a promise that if the site goes live and shareholders are getting paid dividends then my donation be quadrupled and paid prior to any dividends being paid out to any shareholders. (I am donating $212.50 for goods and not charging for my coding. In return I want my donation to be valued 4x its current value which is $850. Once that is done I DO NOT WANT THE MONEY PAID TO ME, I will ask the person running the project to make donations to the value of $850 to various charities of my choosing. Simple as that, I will not see my donation returned to me but I will make sure to ask from the good causes/charities if BitBay did make the requested donations).


*** As a donation I will set-up and pay for 3 months enterprise level cloud set-up (normally costs $17.50 a month for 12 months and then $50 a month after)
*** As a donation I will buy and install a Comodo EV SSL (green bar). I can pay the first year costs of $160 for the certificate and install for free
*** As a donation I MIGHT be willing to modify open source code and design part of the initial website with all sign up, login, cart, checkout and usual features
*** You must only hire the rent-a-coder using a 1x person = 1x vote (who you will pay from the 4.175BTC remaining funds) to complete the ajax/jquery bidding process parts of the code, or obviously the whole site if I cannot make time for an initial frame because I am working on my own projects and time is limited.

Here are my conditions for donating my money, time and effort:

*** There must be at least 4.175BTC of investors funds in Cassie's holdings
*** Cassie must be willing to pass control of all remaining BTC (minimum 4.175BTC) on to an investor who the majority of shareholders elect to be a Project Manager
*** In return Cassie will be awarded 2 shares as a goodwill gesture and be shareholder only (that makes a total of 260 issued shares)
*** All investors of Round 2 that had their investment taken by Justin (I listed them above) must have their shareholdings preserved
*** Justin will NEVER be allowed back in to the project as a coder, partner, shareholder or in any capacity
*** BitBay Inc needs to be established and the elected investor can be registered Chairperson and all other investors must be listed as well
*** All BitBay domains are to be 'owned' by BitBay Inc
*** A transparent plan needs to be given to all shareholders explaining how the dividends are to be paid and who is responsible for that
*** Investors must have access to the BitBay web admin page via htaccess or db login where they can see hourly/daily/weekly/monthly income
*** All investors must have an equal say in all project matters (hosting, budgeting, hiring, firing, advertising and everything else) whether in development or live mode, a majority 1x shareholder = 1x vote vote wins all issues raised

In all honesty, this project will only create more issues in the long run because even if it did go live and investors were receiving dividends what would happen a few months or years down the line when investors start querying how much dividends they received and who might have embezzled what! Is it worth the aggravation? A minority will have access to the bank accounts and fund wallets... this system is unsustainable as it is ALL based on trust and most (if not all) of the trust has already diminished already...

Cassie has stated Justin will not have full server access after the work is complete and she stated everything will in her name (not BitBay Inc with all shareholders legally protected) and she stated everything will be secure and looked over by an unmentioned third party. People that invested need more than what is being offered because of what has happened in the past.

Daemon, if you still believe in the project I am willing to put my money down as a donation. This offer is open for a limited time only so if Cassie really wants this project to succeed like you and some other investors do then she will surely step aside whether my donations are on the table or not. As far as her involvement in this project is concerned she should only be a minority shareholder (and that is as a goodwill gesture on part of you investors since she purchased zero shares in the project) and Justin should never be allowed back in any capacity.

As I have stated before all round 1 funds are safe and secure with me. There is no scam going on here. I am simply having Justin finish what he was payed to do.     
He has agreed to finish what he started. I have thought it over and think this is the best route to take.

This gives the investors what they payed for and the community a legit place to sell their items safely.
He will not have Full Server admin access after the site goes live. Everything is going to be registered in my name.
Everything will be secure and looked over by a third party.



There is still more to work out. I am working day and night to pull this all together.

~cassie

The project is a good idea, those involved cannot be trusted it seems, unless Cassie has some good proof to keep her side clean. Still, it's all too muddled.

I'll be pondering charges and a small claims suit over the next couple of days. As has been requested, more information on the safety of shares from Cassie and her side of the situation would be great to keep her out of the crosshairs.

@Cheeky

While I would agree with the majority of what you have posted since this all went south, you need to take off the tinfoil hat. I am just as mad about everything as anyone else, and the lack of information being given would lead you and everyone to what you just posted above, I get it... I encouraged Cassie to file a report and get the ball rolling... it is what it is at this point in time.

With the information I have, and justin knowing I have it, safe to say if anyone had been paid their investment back to keep quite, it would have been me first most likely. That is not the case... I have not received a single satoshi, and the few others that I have seen discussing in other chats are in the same boat... we have squat. What you perceive as going silent is really people deciding is was not worth the time to continue rambling on the forum where no good would come from such posts. As it stands, even more stupidity happened outside these forums to others discussing this issue who were not investors either... I am not going to go into detail, but I will say Cassie, as well as other innocent bystanders, suffered from an undue round of Denial of Service attacks on their home IPs... Cassie's foremost more than anyone else... and she has been keeping offline while she dealt with her ISP, personal router and making sure all of her systems were not infected. It was not a nice weekend for any involved in that fiasco.

I discussed justin's post above with Cassie last night... and in detail laid out what investor's and onlookers concerns and responses would be to such a move. We also discussed who has what roles and duties going forward and how that will be perceived by the community here, as well as what needs to happen at a PR level if there is to be any hope of reconciliation with the public and investors. Likely, it will not matter with things like the above being posted.

Cassie answered your questions in the main thread (Apparently this is no longer posted here... sigh). Justin posted this last night... and only hours later you posted your rant above... maybe you should sit back just a bit longer on these types of posts and allow Cassie to put up something well thought out and proofed... seeing as we would all agree real communication is now a must going forward.

I would still prefer to have my BTC back... but the next best thing is this project moving forward again if it can be structured and managed properly.

Go ahead and pick me apart now... you know my stance on all this... if I can get my BTC great... but since that seems unlikely... I would rather help drive this thing on the straight and narrow than anything else...

It seems you are probably right...

So... you apologise for yourself in one part of the statement and use the word 'we' in another but there is no word from Cassie.

You also make it clear you are unable to provide full refunds to everyone yet you use the word 'we' (alluding to Cassie and yourself) and then you go a step further to say 'we' (alluding to Cassie and yourself) have restructured your finances. How can you restructure 'your' finances when the finances belong to investors? How can you state you will not be able to give refunds to all investors but can to some but not state how, when and why this is the case?

Where exactly in this ridiculous restructuring of finances does the funds you used for living expenses come in to it?

If it is true that Cassie and you are indeed working together again then it means the 'coder' she got to make the psd image for her version of BitBay is no longer working for her and anyway, if he was there would have been tangible evidence by having an under construction demo store by now.

This whole episode is a farce and a disgrace. Your failed feeble attempt at a 'Shakespearean' or poetic yet highly nonsensical reply asking for investors to carry on hanging on for a small chance of their investment shows you for the immature and pathetic person you really are. You stated earlier Cassie would not go to the police because she had 50% of the investors money! You never had the decency to actually state how much you took without consent when you left, how much was left with her and the most important question: why did you (or could you) not take it all?


THERE WAS NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO INVEST IN SHARES BY SENDING THEIR BTC TO A START UP PROJECT THAT DID NOT NEED FINANCING IN THE FIRST PLACE!

A PHP-CODER COULD DESIGN A WORKING DEMO OF A BITMIT STYLE WEBSITE WITHIN 7-10 DAYS AND HAVE A COMPLETED FULLY TESTED VERSION READY TO START TRADING BY A TOTAL OF 14 DAYS FROM BEGINNING TO END. THE HOSTING IS ALMOST FREE, THE SSL CERTIFICATE CAN GIVEN FREE AS PART OF HOSTING PACKAGES OR CAN BE BOUGHT FROM A COUPLE OF DOLLARS UPWARDS. ALL ADVERTISING WOULD BE FREE AS THE SITE WOULD BE ADVERTISED HERE IN THESE AND ALIKE FORUMS. THEREFORE THIS 'PROJECT' (IF IT CAN BE CALLED THAT) NEVER NEEDED FINANCING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

WHAT WOULD POSSESS YOU TO HAND OVER YOUR BTC TO TWO PEOPLE WHO COULD HAVE STARTED THE PROJECT WITHOUT THE NEED FOR YOUR MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE? THE ONLY EXPENSE WOULD BE A RENT-A-CODERS HOURLY OR MILESTONE RATE.

CASSIE DELETED HER WHOLE SKYPE 'EVIDENCE' LOG A FEW DAYS BACK IN JUSTIN'S BITBAY DEVELOPMENT THREAD (HIS FAILED FORK) AND I CANNOT BE ASKED TO SEARCH THIS THREAD TO SEE IF SHE DELETED IT HERE AS WELL BECAUSE SHE HAS GONE ALL QUIET NOW SO THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE TO THIS THAN MEETS THE EYE: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=403076.60

There have been a several investors in BitBay who were very vocal opponents of Justin but they have notably gone quite in recent days and are not posting anything on this topic now. It might be worth considering that they may be the ones who have received their funds back as they were the most vocal critics and the they were silenced as a deal involving their refund. I would suggest all investors kick-up a fuss and do not let your investments be either stolen, used, misused, mismanaged or kept by two people (Cassie and Justin) who seem to be determined to not give it back to you and who keep citing the same repetitive rubbish about not having enough of your investments to pay you back! Do you actually believe their rubbish??

If it is true that Cassie and Justin are working together then just remember neither have given any reason for you to trust them! Whether Justin is back with Cassie or not is one thing, but for her not to highlight it here and tell everyone that negotiations were going on is another failure on top of many previous failures on her part. You people are investors, it is YOU who runs the show NOT Cassie or Justin.
 
-- Cassie never reported Justin's theft to the police. Why?
-- Cassie and Justin are working together again after the 'theft' and after the BitBay.sx malware site where Justin threatened to kill Cassie before now conveniently removing it?
-- Justin is doing all the posting while Cassie is keeping quiet showing us it is her taking the 'adult' approach? It seems this is a concerted step by both of them

INVESTORS, PLEASE REPORT THIS WHOLE FARCE TO THE POLICE AND LET THEM TAKE APPROPRIATE ACTION BECAUSE IT WILL BE BETTER THAN THE LIES AND DECEIT YOU WILL GET OVER THE COMING MONTHS SO TRY AND GET YOUR MONEY BACK NOW (AND LEAVE THESE TWO TO FIGHT AND THEN KISS AND MAKE UP AS MANY TIMES AS THEY LIKE) WITHOUT DRAGGING YOU IN TO THEIR PATHETIC AND DISGRACE OF A 'PROJECT'.

LET THE POLICE WORK OUT WHAT JUSTIN DID AND WHAT CASSIE DID AND LET THEM NEGOTIATE A WAY OUT OF THIS WITH THE POLICE AFTER POSSIBLE CRIMINAL DAMAGES ARE HANGING OVER ONE OR BOTH OF THEM.

ALL CREDIT TO INVESTORS WHO HAVE NOT BEEN REFUNDED: YOU HAVE BEEN PATIENT ENOUGH YET YOU HAVE BEEN CATEGORICALLY TOLD YOU WILL NOT BE GETTING YOUR MONEY/INVESTMENTS BACK.... ALL YOU WILL GET IS BOTH OF THEM EITHER BLAMING EACH OTHER FOR THE FARCE OR YOU WILL GET A FAILED ATTEMPT AT A 'SHAKESPEAREAN' STYLE OF REPLY DESIGNED TO THROW MORE CONFUSION IN THE AIR YET IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN MUMBO-JUMBO TO WASTE YOUR TIME!  

CALL THE POLICE!

IF I HAD INVESTED I WOULD HAVE FILED A REPORT BY NOW!