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Topic: [Announcement] Avalon ASIC Development Status [Batch #1] - page 39. (Read 155318 times)

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Heh.. if you say so!


well hurry up and build a working asic so we will all know already. Stop farking off in the forums and start soldering or cursing at someone in mandarin Tongue

I'm sending Inaba a care package of the mandarin Rosetta Stone and a used Weller hobby iron. Do work, son.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Heh.. if you say so!


well hurry up and build a working asic so we will all know already. Stop farking off in the forums and start soldering or cursing at someone in mandarin Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Heh.. if you say so!
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
That would not be true.  EMC, BTCguild, Slush and Eligius are all ready and waiting for ASIC.


No one knows if they are ready because no one has a working asic to test.

The BFL singles had issues with pools and clients when they first came out. They still don't work well with p2pool because of how the bitstream works.

Asic are basically just hardcoded fpga, but faster. No one really knows yet exactly what hiccups there will be, but I think for the first few weeks after they hit it's going to be very interesting and very bumpy.

The majority of the asics save the japalepeno? are going to be multithreaded or appear as a multi gpu/asic device, so each device is going to request several works at once and return several at once, hundreds or thousands of times faster than now. Even with stratum and nrolltime allowing the miner to save requesting and generate it's own work, they have to go back up to a pool and get confirmed. It's going to be interesting
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 251
Avalon ASIC Team
Most pool can queried for 120 getworks at a time, noticeably the ecoinpool variant. With other new systems like Stratum with aims to solve any other potential problem and future proofing the network.

In addition, like I have previously stated, Avalon will be releasing our image.iso for the controller sometime in December this will include documentation on how our ASIC will communicate with mining softwares and pools. we will also be providing patches to opensource miners like CGminer.

With that said, we are aware of this bandwidth concern and do not deem it to be a problem at the moment.
hero member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 502
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.

All the major pools now won't support an ASIC. There has to be major changes for them to support ASIC. Especially at the beginning when ASIC are returning easy work extremely fast. Even with stratum there's going to be major bandwidth problems in the beginning.
Why is the 1kB/s (regardless of miningspeed) a major bandwidth problem?
If there were a period where a block was solved once every 5 seconds (just making this number up) until difficulty caught up I am guessing that there could be a temporary network congestion problem. Mining might only be 1kB/s but block propagation could take up a large chunk of network bandwidth. You could see p2pool-like problems manfesting on the main Bitcoin network, the major one being collisions of solved blocks that will result in many orphans. This wouldn't be a pool issue, though.
5 seconds a block won't be a big problem because it won't generate extra transactions. Each block will be the 80 bytes header with a little data for the block reward, at most 1/4kB.
There probably won't even be much collisions because I really doubt an increase of 100k of speed will come at once from multiple sources.

5 seconds a block takes at most 2016 * 5 = 10080 seconds = 2 hours 48 minutes to change the difficulty to 20 seconds a block. (maximum increase is times 4)
donator
Activity: 1617
Merit: 1012
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.

All the major pools now won't support an ASIC. There has to be major changes for them to support ASIC. Especially at the beginning when ASIC are returning easy work extremely fast. Even with stratum there's going to be major bandwidth problems in the beginning.
Why is the 1kB/s (regardless of miningspeed) a major bandwidth problem?
If there were a period where a block was solved once every 5 seconds (just making this number up) until difficulty caught up I am guessing that there could be a temporary network congestion problem. Mining might only be 1kB/s but block propagation could take up a large chunk of network bandwidth. You could see p2pool-like problems manfesting on the main Bitcoin network, the major one being collisions of solved blocks that will result in many orphans. This wouldn't be a pool issue, though.
hero member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 502
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.

All the major pools now won't support an ASIC. There has to be major changes for them to support ASIC. Especially at the beginning when ASIC are returning easy work extremely fast. Even with stratum there's going to be major bandwidth problems in the beginning.
Why is the 1kB/s (regardless of miningspeed) a major bandwidth problem?
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.

A mining rig of 500MH/s today have 1/40000 of network power a single 60GH ASIC at the beginning will be near 1/2000 (like a 2GH today) and a 1TB rig will be in the 1/100th range like a small pool today (30-40GHs of today rigs); pool still can work, but it's quite easy for who have 2-3 60GH ASIC mine in solo and get 1-2 block a month in the first month.

Maybe Im wrong, but mining on a pool or solo would get almost the same result, even in a few month time span...   your tought ?

I don't understand why so many people are confused about this.

Yes, statistically it should work out exactly the same.  Solo just tends to be a lot more "chunky" in its payouts.

(minus any variance based on server reliability, server operator fees, etc.)

If your hash rate is very high mining in solo is more convenient: you don't have the fees to pay to pool and you get also all the transaction fee. On the long run even with the variance in payouts you can easily earn a 2-5% more with solo mining.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
That would not be true.  EMC, BTCguild, Slush and Eligius are all ready and waiting for ASIC.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.

All the major pools now won't support an ASIC. There has to be major changes for them to support ASIC. Especially at the beginning when ASIC are returning easy work extremely fast. Even with stratum there's going to be major bandwidth problems in the beginning.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.

A mining rig of 500MH/s today have 1/40000 of network power a single 60GH ASIC at the beginning will be near 1/2000 (like a 2GH today) and a 1TB rig will be in the 1/100th range like a small pool today (30-40GHs of today rigs); pool still can work, but it's quite easy for who have 2-3 60GH ASIC mine in solo and get 1-2 block a month in the first month.

Maybe Im wrong, but mining on a pool or solo would get almost the same result, even in a few month time span...   your tought ?

I don't understand why so many people are confused about this.

Yes, statistically it should work out exactly the same.  Solo just tends to be a lot more "chunky" in its payouts.

(minus any variance based on server reliability, server operator fees, etc.)
legendary
Activity: 1002
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.

A mining rig of 500MH/s today have 1/40000 of network power a single 60GH ASIC at the beginning will be near 1/2000 (like a 2GH today) and a 1TB rig will be in the 1/100th range like a small pool today (30-40GHs of today rigs); pool still can work, but it's quite easy for who have 2-3 60GH ASIC mine in solo and get 1-2 block a month in the first month.

Maybe Im wrong, but mining on a pool or solo would get almost the same result, even in a few month time span...   your tought ?
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
Packaged Chip Size: 7 mm x 7 mm

Thanks for the transparency, but the unpackaged die size is what you ought to be posting.  Without that it's impossible to make performance comparisons (or at least those comparisons would have to assume it fills the whole package cavity, which portrays Avalon in the worst possible light).  Please provide the unpackaged die size.

Also, I think you may have neglected to say how many of these chips are in the 60GH/s device… or perhaps I missed that.  Anyways, without knowing how many chips are in the device, none of the information above is really useful.  Did you post this somewhere that I didn't see?
Assuming a maximum die size of about 25mm^2 in a 7mm QFN, I would guess quite a lot of them if the unit is actually drawing 400W. Probably a few dozen. That's a lot of heat to move from a molded package.

That would be 200m$ worth of BFL hardware... Not going to happen, leaving quite a margin for less efficient device to cover their investments ... at some point.
That would be 200M $ worth of BFL hardware at current prices. There's a substantial financial incentive for them to drop their prices once business slows down - the marginal cost of ASICs is fairly low and the up-front cost fairly high, and they probably want to make as much money on that upfront investment as possible. Of course, that doesn't leave much room for purchasers of BFL's devices to cover their investments either.
There's definitely a lot of room for BFL to come down, but I'm not sure just how much. I could see the Minirig SC come in at $15k, but it doesn't matter if the ASICs fall out of the sky, you're not going to see a Minirig SC at $1500 until there's a respin that brings down the power and size of a 1.5TH/s machine to close to the size of a Single. My speculation is that BFL could sell the Minirig SC quite profitably at the $15k price point of the current MR, but it would not be economical at $7500 (1/4 it's current price) unless they start to produce tens of thousands of them.
hero member
Activity: 525
Merit: 500
..yeah
Is there anything planned after avalon? Avalon II maybe? Or maybe just another batch? Didnt read anything about it, nor from any other competitor.. just curious Smiley
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.

A mining rig of 500MH/s today have 1/40000 of network power a single 60GH ASIC at the beginning will be near 1/2000 (like a 2GH today) and a 1TB rig will be in the 1/100th range like a small pool today (30-40GHs of today rigs); pool still can work, but it's quite easy for who have 2-3 60GH ASIC mine in solo and get 1-2 block a month in the first month.
hero member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 502
Why would the pools disappear?
If someone mines with a single gpu now and has 1/10000th of the total networkspeed and gets a asic and still has a 1/10000th of the total networkspeed, it's still a good idea to use a pool.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Something many of you are forgetting is that the bitcoin infrastructure as it is now, with pools and current hardware will essentially go bye bye once the asics start hitting hard. It's going to turn the world upside down for a few weeks/months. There's something like 20t/hash now and a majority of that is going to evaporate a month or two into asics.
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
That would be 200m$ worth of BFL hardware... Not going to happen, leaving quite a margin for less efficient device to cover their investments ... at some point.
That would be 200M $ worth of BFL hardware at current prices. There's a substantial financial incentive for them to drop their prices once business slows down - the marginal cost of ASICs is fairly low and the up-front cost fairly high, and they probably want to make as much money on that upfront investment as possible. Of course, that doesn't leave much room for purchasers of BFL's devices to cover their investments either.

Indeed pushing too much power in the network in a time brings to very low profit unless price of btc skyrockets. So if ASIC producer don't want to kill themself they have to don't reduce price or put too many ASIC out. Doing some small calculation if network power jumps at 40X a 60GH/s ASIC can barely cover the energy costs in USA and noway is profitable in lot of European country (in Italy you've to add 500$ in a year to cover energy cost).
So or price of BTC double in next few months or power increment due to ASIC introduction will not be over a 20-25X or there'll be no profit in mining
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 564
That would be 200m$ worth of BFL hardware... Not going to happen, leaving quite a margin for less efficient device to cover their investments ... at some point.
That would be 200M $ worth of BFL hardware at current prices. There's a substantial financial incentive for them to drop their prices once business slows down - the marginal cost of ASICs is fairly low and the up-front cost fairly high, and they probably want to make as much money on that upfront investment as possible. Of course, that doesn't leave much room for purchasers of BFL's devices to cover their investments either.
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