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Topic: [Archive] BFL trolling museum - page 103. (Read 69394 times)

vip
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.
August 02, 2012, 11:31:20 AM
On another note, it's been awhile since i've checked out the pre order forms for the ASIC line. It's worth noting they lined out how one can trade in and that the Jalepeno does not come with an "internal power supply", while the SC Single and Minirig do. Does this mean that it infact will be USB powered?

That's something only BFL can answer. The fact that the Jalapeno does not state 'internal power supply' as the other products do may simply mean that it comes with an 'external' power supply (much like the current Singles do, only much smaller). We simply do not know and BFL hasn't said one way or another.

They probably haven't figured that out yet.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
August 02, 2012, 11:19:41 AM
On another note, it's been awhile since i've checked out the pre order forms for the ASIC line. It's worth noting they lined out how one can trade in and that the Jalepeno does not come with an "internal power supply", while the SC Single and Minirig do. Does this mean that it infact will be USB powered?

That's something only BFL can answer. The fact that the Jalapeno does not state 'internal power supply' as the other products do may simply mean that it comes with an 'external' power supply (much like the current Singles do, only much smaller). We simply do not know and BFL hasn't said one way or another.

The current singles and minirigs do list their power supplies though. The Jalepeno is the only one that i'm noticing doesn't.

Of course, it could always end up having one. I just don't see what they could gain from omitting it.
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
August 02, 2012, 11:16:28 AM
On another note, it's been awhile since i've checked out the pre order forms for the ASIC line. It's worth noting they lined out how one can trade in and that the Jalepeno does not come with an "internal power supply", while the SC Single and Minirig do. Does this mean that it infact will be USB powered?

That's something only BFL can answer. The fact that the Jalapeno does not state 'internal power supply' as the other products do may simply mean that it comes with an 'external' power supply (much like the current Singles do, only much smaller). We simply do not know and BFL hasn't said one way or another.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
August 02, 2012, 11:05:31 AM
That's one of the things we were talking about up higher, because even the jalapenos can finish a block relatively quickly the stale rate should be low even if it has the same behavior.
Well that would depend on the difficulty, wouldn't it? If we say a Jalapeño is 5 times faster than a single, then difficulty just needs to rise by a factor of 5, and then the Jalapeño will find a block just as fast as a Single does now.

At only 150$ per jalapeno, I suppose the calculations that would need to be done are $(in hardware) per share. Since the Jalapeno is only 150 dollars, it would still return the investment 4 times as fast if it solved shares at the same rate.

On another note, it's been awhile since i've checked out the pre order forms for the ASIC line. It's worth noting they lined out how one can trade in and that the Jalepeno does not come with an "internal power supply", while the SC Single and Minirig do. Does this mean that it infact will be USB powered?
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
August 02, 2012, 09:46:59 AM
That's one of the things we were talking about up higher, because even the jalapenos can finish a block relatively quickly the stale rate should be low even if it has the same behavior.
Well that would depend on the difficulty, wouldn't it? If we say a Jalapeño is 5 times faster than a single, then difficulty just needs to rise by a factor of 5, and then the Jalapeño will find a block just as fast as a Single does now.
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
August 02, 2012, 04:54:54 AM
Ah, ok, I see. So basically any nonce that it reports (every 5 seconds) are anything from 0 to 5 seconds old. Yeah that's sucky. Let's hope BFL implements are better protocol in their ASICs.

The protocol made perfect sense for the main chain (5s wait time on a 10m block is just fine) but it was expected that running through the entire chunk of work and returning one "best" nonce for the whole block would be more efficient, but the assumptions break a little bit for the really short timespan between blocks on the P2Pool chain.

That's one of the things we were talking about up higher, because even the jalapenos can finish a block relatively quickly the stale rate should be low even if it has the same behavior.

Theoretically, if the Bitforce Single's bitstream was changed it could report back sooner, and I think BFL was looking into that briefly, but focus has definitely been shifted off of the old singles by now anyway.
No it never made sense.

It is the only device with the problem.

Because it is silent for 5 seconds each time, it means that on average, every block it wastes 2.5 seconds of hashing time.
i.e. on average every 600 seconds it wastes 2.5 seconds i.e. 0.4%
... for no reason at all except the designers were bitcoin noobs who thought they knew better than those who told them otherwise.

... and to add insult to injury, the actual understanding of the problem is that when you abort work it doesn't tell you what it has done already - there is no way to ask it the current answers it has found.
You abort work by telling it to start new work and throw away any current results.

So these issues give you the two options as I have already discussed.
sr. member
Activity: 389
Merit: 250
August 01, 2012, 10:43:10 PM
Ah, ok, I see. So basically any nonce that it reports (every 5 seconds) are anything from 0 to 5 seconds old. Yeah that's sucky. Let's hope BFL implements are better protocol in their ASICs.

The protocol made perfect sense for the main chain (5s wait time on a 10m block is just fine) but it was expected that running through the entire chunk of work and returning one "best" nonce for the whole block would be more efficient, but the assumptions break a little bit for the really short timespan between blocks on the P2Pool chain.

That's one of the things we were talking about up higher, because even the jalapenos can finish a block relatively quickly the stale rate should be low even if it has the same behavior.

Theoretically, if the Bitforce Single's bitstream was changed it could report back sooner, and I think BFL was looking into that briefly, but focus has definitely been shifted off of the old singles by now anyway.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
August 01, 2012, 06:30:58 PM
Ah, ok, I see. So basically any nonce that it reports (every 5 seconds) are anything from 0 to 5 seconds old. Yeah that's sucky. Let's hope BFL implements are better protocol in their ASICs.
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
August 01, 2012, 06:19:33 PM
At least 2 people have sent the list of requirements for ASIC that the BFL noobs kept ignoring on the FPGAs, that would allow them to work on P2Pool ...
What is the issue with BFL's products and P2Pool, exactly? Sucky that they only work with pools (or solo)...

Nothing is stopping anyone from using a Single on P2Pool; it will work.

But because of P2Pool's short blocks (10 seconds?), the fact that a Single spends 5 seconds hashing a full nonce range before returning anything means that a significant percentage of shares generated by the Single will be stale by the time it gets around to reporting them.

So even though you *can* use a Single on P2Pool, it would be foolish to do so if only from an income point of view.

So it's basically because you can't stop a Single, when you've first asked it to start looking for a nonce, and tell it to work on something new?

I believe you *can* stop a Single ... the mechanism to do that is indirectly described in BFL's published protocol (if I understand it correctly). But that's not the real problem. The deal breaker is that the device does not report valid shares when it finds them ... it reports them in a batch at the end of its 5-second nonce run.

So even if it is stopped in the middle of a calculation, any valid shares it found in the nonce range up to the point where it stopped would already be stale. Essentially this is saying that out of every 10-second block, any shares found in a 2.5 second portion will be stale. A Single is expected to find 2 shares in a 10-second period. 1/2 a share of that (or 25%) will be stale.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
August 01, 2012, 06:16:34 PM
A single takes 5.2 seconds to hash
If you abort the hash it doesn't return any data.
What data would you want returned? Someone else has found the nonce, unless you found it before them you might as well start with the new block, right?
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
August 01, 2012, 06:06:47 PM
Probably quicker to type again rather than find all the posts I've done of this ... Tongue

A single takes 5.2 seconds to hash
If you abort the hash it doesn't return any data.

A P2Pool LP is 10 seconds (on average)

Thus if you abort the work all the time, you will be throwing away a high % of your hashing time.
If you don't abort the work, a high % of your results will be stale.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
August 01, 2012, 05:50:10 PM
At least 2 people have sent the list of requirements for ASIC that the BFL noobs kept ignoring on the FPGAs, that would allow them to work on P2Pool ...
What is the issue with BFL's products and P2Pool, exactly? Sucky that they only work with pools (or solo)...

Nothing is stopping anyone from using a Single on P2Pool; it will work.

But because of P2Pool's short blocks (10 seconds?), the fact that a Single spends 5 seconds hashing a full nonce range before returning anything means that a significant percentage of shares generated by the Single will be stale by the time it gets around to reporting them.

So even though you *can* use a Single on P2Pool, it would be foolish to do so if only from an income point of view.
So it's basically because you can't stop a Single, when you've first asked it to start looking for a nonce, and tell it to work on something new?
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
Scattering my bits around the net since 1980
August 01, 2012, 04:02:06 PM
Anything stopping someone from creating a bitcoin-asic network of p2pool nodes, with a longer poll time, and adjusting the share chain to compensate, to make it more asic-friendly?

-- Smoov
hero member
Activity: 533
Merit: 500
August 01, 2012, 03:53:27 PM
  Thanks for the clarification there.

  I was joking to myself in thinking that hey, if you get a few Jalapens there wouldn't be any issue in just solo mining.  Then again two factors at work there:

  1.  Everyone will be getting that kind of horsepower
  2.  Difficulty should adjust fast so we'd be back to submitting shares, just on a greater hashing scale.

  Oh well.  Investment capital that's needed is far less than our giant GPU setups.  Faster payback and also a benenfit of cheaper devices to have more people mine so the idea itself spreads too.  Fine by me!
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
August 01, 2012, 03:34:15 PM
At least 2 people have sent the list of requirements for ASIC that the BFL noobs kept ignoring on the FPGAs, that would allow them to work on P2Pool ...
What is the issue with BFL's products and P2Pool, exactly? Sucky that they only work with pools (or solo)...

Nothing is stopping anyone from using a Single on P2Pool; it will work.

But because of P2Pool's short blocks (10 seconds?), the fact that a Single spends 5 seconds hashing a full nonce range before returning anything means that a significant percentage of shares generated by the Single will be stale by the time it gets around to reporting them.

So even though you *can* use a Single on P2Pool, it would be foolish to do so if only from an income point of view.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
August 01, 2012, 03:14:40 PM
At least 2 people have sent the list of requirements for ASIC that the BFL noobs kept ignoring on the FPGAs, that would allow them to work on P2Pool ...
What is the issue with BFL's products and P2Pool, exactly? Sucky that they only work with pools (or solo)...
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
August 01, 2012, 02:37:20 PM
I really hope they code these asics to be p2pool-friendly this time...

In theory the singles solve a whole getwork in under 1.25 seconds, where the BitForce Single took almost 5 seconds to complete; which is what lead to getting really high stale rates (~40%+). The new one should have under/around 10-15% stale rate based the scan time.

I'm not sure where you are getting 1.25 seconds:

Full nonce range: 2^32 ~= 4x1e9 hashes
BFL Single @ 800Mhps needs (4x1e9)/(800x1e6) = 5 seconds
BFL SC Single @ 40Ghps needs (4x1e9)/(40x1e9) = 0.1 seconds

The SC Single will work fine on P2Pool ... assuming P2Pool's 10-second blocks, an SC Single will on average lose 0.05 seconds of work (half of its 0.1s nonce rate) every 10 seconds, which represents 0.5% stales.

Sure, this can be improved. But even it is isn't, 0.5% is already very good.
Oops, should have said jalapeno, although there's a chance that it's using multiple getwork requests (like multi-threading) which would multiply the time by the number of concurrent instances. The SC singles are probably multiple chips and probably run multiple requests at a time if I had to guess.

Ah, yes, I see you've edited your post ... Jalapeno, not Single. The 3.5Ghps Jalapeno should see about 5.7% stales on P2Pool *if* it behaves as the current BFL Singles do (that is, if it computes a full 2^32 nonce range before returning anything). A 5.7% stale rate definitely has room for improvement.  Wink
sr. member
Activity: 389
Merit: 250
August 01, 2012, 02:19:46 PM
I really hope they code these asics to be p2pool-friendly this time...

In theory the singles solve a whole getwork in under 1.25 seconds, where the BitForce Single took almost 5 seconds to complete; which is what lead to getting really high stale rates (~40%+). The new one should have under/around 10-15% stale rate based the scan time.

I'm not sure where you are getting 1.25 seconds:

Full nonce range: 2^32 ~= 4x1e9 hashes
BFL Single @ 800Mhps needs (4x1e9)/(800x1e6) = 5 seconds
BFL SC Single @ 40Ghps needs (4x1e9)/(40x1e9) = 0.1 seconds

The SC Single will work fine on P2Pool ... assuming P2Pool's 10-second blocks, an SC Single will on average lose 0.05 seconds of work (half of its 0.1s nonce rate) every 10 seconds, which represents 0.5% stales.

Sure, this can be improved. But even it is isn't, 0.5% is already very good.
Oops, should have said jalapeno, although there's a chance that it's using multiple getwork requests (like multi-threading) which would multiply the time by the number of concurrent instances. The SC singles are probably multiple chips and probably run multiple requests at a time if I had to guess.
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
August 01, 2012, 10:41:18 AM
I really hope they code these asics to be p2pool-friendly this time...

In theory the singles solve a whole getwork in under 1.25 seconds, where the BitForce Single took almost 5 seconds to complete; which is what lead to getting really high stale rates (~40%+). The new one should have under/around 10-15% stale rate based the scan time.

I'm not sure where you are getting 1.25 seconds:

Full nonce range: 2^32 ~= 4x1e9 hashes
BFL Single @ 800Mhps needs (4x1e9)/(800x1e6) = 5 seconds
BFL SC Single @ 40Ghps needs (4x1e9)/(40x1e9) = 0.1 seconds

The SC Single will work fine on P2Pool ... assuming P2Pool's 10-second blocks, an SC Single will on average lose 0.05 seconds of work (half of its 0.1s nonce rate) every 10 seconds, which represents 0.5% stales.

Sure, this can be improved. But even it is isn't, 0.5% is already very good.
sr. member
Activity: 389
Merit: 250
August 01, 2012, 10:25:50 AM
I really hope they code these asics to be p2pool-friendly this time...

-- Smoov

In theory the jalapenos solve a whole getwork in under 1.25 seconds, where the BitForce Single took almost 5 seconds to complete; which is what lead to getting really high stale rates (~40%+). The new one should have under/around 10-15% stale rate based the scan time.

Edit: should have read jalapeno instead of single
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