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Topic: ASICMINER Speculation Thread - page 31. (Read 808757 times)

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 501
June 11, 2014, 03:55:06 PM
I look at investing in AM to be somewhat similar to buying mining hardware.

When someone buys mining hardware they are typically trying to earn a return.  That is, for every bitcoin that is spent on hardware, power, taxes, etc., they hope to mine it all back and then some.  If their BTC mining revenues exceed their expenses, then they are mining at a profit.  If their expenses exceed their revenues, then they are mining at a loss.  If they are mining at a loss they would be better off financially just holding BTC.  Also, once a piece of hardware is no longer profitable, they don't expect to sell the hardware for more than what they initially paid for it.  Similarly, once I've owned a share of AM for a few years, I don't expect to be able to sell it for more than what I initially paid for it.

With AM, instead of speculating on expected ROI in BTC from mining, I'm speculating on expected ROI in BTC from dividends.  If I buy a share of AM for .2 BTC today, I'm hoping to make all of that back and then some at some point in the next few years in dividends.  I expect the AM share price and profits (measured in BTC) to go down as block rewards are reduced, just as those operating mining hardware expect their BTC earnings to go down when block rewards are reduced.

but so far i can't imagine that payed out dividends would sufficiently compensate for sinking share price compared to simple holding (esp. not after halfing and with the ongoing exponential rise of btcvalue) .
this was the case if you've bought in the beginning on IPO, now i really don't see any ground for this.
in the case that the open source project for AM chips soars heavily, gen3 in kombo with mining and gen4 could perhaps return current share price until roughly spring 2016?
i wonder if AM will again have a starving phase of low to no divs until sellout of gen 4, because that is one of my main concerns.
just got burned so hard holding shares during the last bubble, i always see it from trader's perspective now how to get the most coins with the least risk. 
then the better strategy would be to buy shares during times of regular flow of dividends and steady btc value and sell without a loss as soon as it bubbles.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin: The People's Bailout
June 11, 2014, 02:40:07 PM
BTC would increase in value, but AM shares are priced in BTC.

this is the main thing about shares valued in btc that always boggles my mind.
after the last halfing (november 28th 2012) btc shot up in value (with some delay). ofc a lot of other circumstances were involved during that time(cyprus, media attention etc.)

thinking about AsicMiner as a company it should theoretically also have to grow exponentially to keep its sharevalue on a steady basis, right?

edit: on second thought that highly depends on how fc balances the growth between mining and production and how high the next bubble rallys. (if we'll ever see one again...  Wink)  

I look at investing in AM to be somewhat similar to buying mining hardware.

When someone buys mining hardware they are typically trying to earn a return.  That is, for every bitcoin that is spent on hardware, power, taxes, etc., they hope to mine it all back and then some.  If their BTC mining revenues exceed their expenses, then they are mining at a profit.  If their expenses exceed their revenues, then they are mining at a loss.  If they are mining at a loss they would be better off financially just holding BTC.  Also, once a piece of hardware is no longer profitable, they don't expect to sell the hardware for more than what they initially paid for it.  Similarly, once I've owned a share of AM for a few years, I don't expect to be able to sell it for more than what I initially paid for it.

With AM, instead of speculating on expected ROI in BTC from mining, I'm speculating on expected ROI in BTC from dividends.  If I buy a share of AM for .2 BTC today, I'm hoping to make all of that back and then some at some point in the next few years in dividends.  I expect the AM share price and profits (measured in BTC) to go down as block rewards are reduced, just as those operating mining hardware expect their BTC earnings to go down when block rewards are reduced.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 501
June 11, 2014, 02:32:59 PM
Quote
keep its sharevalue on a steady basis, right?

There will never be a steady share value as long as it is denominated in such a volatile currency.

sure, my problem is that everytime i think about these things i switch back to fiatmode to determine value for midterm evaluation.
nobody knows how the endgame will evolve though and in the long term this "fiat backed standard" could become trivial the faster btc adaption expands.

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
June 11, 2014, 01:54:20 PM
Quote
keep its sharevalue on a steady basis, right?

There will never be a steady share value as long as it is denominated in such a volatile currency.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 501
June 11, 2014, 01:45:19 PM
If BTC rewards halves to 12.5 from 25 BTC

 due to continued demand shouldn't BTC double in value if demand is continuous?
,

BTC would increase in value, but AM shares are priced in BTC.

this is the main thing about shares valued in btc that always boggles my mind.
after the last halfing (november 28th 2012) btc shot up in value (with some delay). ofc a lot of other circumstances were involved during that time(cyprus, media attention etc.)

thinking about AsicMiner as a company it should theoretically also have to grow exponentially to keep its sharevalue on a steady basis, right?

edit: on second thought that highly depends on how fc balances the growth between mining and production and how high the next bubble rallys. (if we'll ever see one again...  Wink)  
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin: The People's Bailout
June 11, 2014, 12:43:02 PM
If BTC rewards halves to 12.5 from 25 BTC

 due to continued demand shouldn't BTC double in value if demand is continuous?
,

BTC would increase in value, but AM shares are priced in BTC.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin: The People's Bailout
June 11, 2014, 12:40:27 PM
There are about 8 or 9 companies with ASIC design now, and 2850000 btc to be minted before next block reward halving in two years. If AM gets 10% of that, with chip sales and mining, it's 0.71/share.

Keep in mind that friedcat said that 1/3 of profits would be retained and reinvested with the other 2/3 being paid as dividends.  How many PH would he need to sell in order to distribute 285,000 BTC in dividends before the next reward halving?

Assuming an exchange rate of $650 USD/BTC and $0.20 in dividends for every GH sold, that would require 926.25 PH in sales.

(285,000 BTC * $650)/$0.20 = 926.25 PH
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 266
June 11, 2014, 12:12:33 PM
If BTC rewards halves to 12.5 from 25 BTC

 due to continued demand shouldn't BTC double in value if demand is continuous?
,
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night
June 11, 2014, 12:07:03 PM
I expect for the next 6 mo ~0.2 BTC div/share

Not lunatic, but a tad too optimistic, I believe. Currently, I'd say 0.1 BTC/share for all of gen 3.
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
June 11, 2014, 11:55:59 AM
There are about 8 or 9 companies with ASIC design now, and 2850000 btc to be minted before next block reward halving in two years. If AM gets 10% of that, with chip sales and mining, it's 0.71/share.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 266
June 11, 2014, 11:12:21 AM
If you are selling please tell me why. Thanks.

Because this company is way over valued? BTC based investments makes people stupid. They throw BTC at it, just because its in BTC. This business is HIGH RISK. Now with larger competition thats only growing, its going to be interesting if they can maintain marketshare. BTC is worth much more than it was a year ago when the dividends were a bit meatier. Dividends will never reach those levels again unless BTC plummets, in which case its likely this company will go under. If you think this company is worth $68,000,000 (current market cap @ havelock prices), you are a fool. Im flipping a few shares I bought and will continue to do so, its easy BTC made.


Only being realistic here. I doubt they will make over 5% a year in ROI at its current price, and thats in a good scenario. You might as well just go with a real Blue chip stock such as Procter & Gamble that has a nice year dividend, much less risk.

Great advice if you are a whore for gov debt based money,
legendary
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000
June 11, 2014, 10:26:54 AM
If you are selling please tell me why. Thanks.

Because this company is way over valued? BTC based investments makes people stupid. They throw BTC at it, just because its in BTC. This business is HIGH RISK. Now with larger competition thats only growing, its going to be interesting if they can maintain marketshare. BTC is worth much more than it was a year ago when the dividends were a bit meatier. Dividends will never reach those levels again unless BTC plummets, in which case its likely this company will go under. If you think this company is worth $68,000,000 (current market cap @ havelock prices), you are a fool. Im flipping a few shares I bought and will continue to do so, its easy BTC made.


Only being realistic here. I doubt they will make over 5% a year in ROI at its current price, and thats in a good scenario. You might as well just go with a real Blue chip stock such as Procter & Gamble that has a nice year dividend, much less risk.
hero member
Activity: 837
Merit: 1000
June 11, 2014, 09:34:39 AM
So long as the divs start rolling well before the next btc spike we will be fine.
If the most optimistic predictions for am's performance come true, I will be able to cover my losses from virtually every other garbage scheme I bought into, plus some. God I hope so, what a miserable experience the bitcoin securities market has been for me this last year. If am fails me I'm done like the dog's dinner. If they can shock the market into a massive panic buy with those fat fat divs we all expect, it will make my year of ulcers all worthwhile.
we could see a perfect storm and I think am has what it takes to go all the way!
I can't wait!

Much love and faith to the cat who is braised!

How much 'fat fat divs' do you expect and what predictions are you basing them on? (Honest question, not rhetorical!)

I expect for the next 6 mo ~0.2 BTC div/share
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1010
Ad maiora!
June 11, 2014, 05:58:53 AM
Just looking at karmashark's post above.

A kid can dream, can't he?

Seriously, if am does half as good, I'm sitting pretty
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night
June 11, 2014, 05:24:18 AM
So long as the divs start rolling well before the next btc spike we will be fine.
If the most optimistic predictions for am's performance come true, I will be able to cover my losses from virtually every other garbage scheme I bought into, plus some. God I hope so, what a miserable experience the bitcoin securities market has been for me this last year. If am fails me I'm done like the dog's dinner. If they can shock the market into a massive panic buy with those fat fat divs we all expect, it will make my year of ulcers all worthwhile.
we could see a perfect storm and I think am has what it takes to go all the way!
I can't wait!

Much love and faith to the cat who is braised!

How much 'fat fat divs' do you expect and what predictions are you basing them on? (Honest question, not rhetorical!)
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1010
Ad maiora!
June 11, 2014, 03:54:58 AM
So long as the divs start rolling well before the next btc spike we will be fine.
If the most optimistic predictions for am's performance come true, I will be able to cover my losses from virtually every other garbage scheme I bought into, plus some. God I hope so, what a miserable experience the bitcoin securities market has been for me this last year. If am fails me I'm done like the dog's dinner. If they can shock the market into a massive panic buy with those fat fat divs we all expect, it will make my year of ulcers all worthwhile.
we could see a perfect storm and I think am has what it takes to go all the way!
I can't wait!

Much love and faith to the cat who is braised!
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
June 11, 2014, 03:10:18 AM
I'm no longer an AM investor but I personally think it's dangerous to think that a 10% APR is reasonable for such a company.

AM have only been in business for a bit less than 2 years.

It's far too murky to see much out beyond the current 25 btc reward era to say what the company might return after that, so I'd only only assign a small fraction of AM's value to what they earn when the reward drops in half.

It looks as though the next block-halving could occur as soon as early 2016. Transaction fees aren't yet coming on at anywhere near the rate to replace the loss of 12.5 btc reward.

AM has some real competition now, and it'll be interesting to see if they're able to introduce new tech quickly enough to avoid a total loss of dividends, as has happened for several months.

If btc goes to a multi-thousand dollar valuation and stays there, the competition is only going to get more intense.

Oh yeh, they've also reported problems in converting income from fiat to btc. That's a horrible problem to have if and when the next bubble occurs.




hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
Bitgoblin
June 10, 2014, 08:25:22 AM
If you are selling please tell me why. Thanks.
Trust has been eroded by bad communications.
AM's value is the trust investors had in the company + the steady dividends, gone the trust gone the investors, gone the dividends gone more investors.

Or, let's put it another way: would you trust a semi-anonymous unregulated Chinese company who basically have no reason nor incentive to keep its word anymore?
Maybe!
I'm not saying they'll just screw you, but if you totally discount the possibility then you are a delusional fool and you should invest.
Otherwise do some math, discover your price, and buy only if the actual price is lower.
sr. member
Activity: 316
Merit: 250
June 08, 2014, 10:42:48 PM
If you are selling please tell me why. Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 1025
Merit: 1000
June 08, 2014, 09:05:29 PM
When are divs expected to come in?   edit: "When the cash-flow becomes positive." could mean anything
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