Topic: Avalon is (unfortunately) a scam. Here is why. - page 3. (Read 37929 times)

Well, yes, why not? After all, we have only seen a single unit. Over 300, one.

BUT.

What's the freaking sense in this to delay the second batch preorder? They could be already between the 2 tropics by now if they didn't stopped the preorder. So, i don't agree this time.

My personal opinion is that:

Jeff is in on the AVALON scam too.

He mysteriously receives it in the last moment, so he doesn't have time to make a proper review.
NOW, 24 hours after he received it, all he posts 6 real photos and some shit a kid can do with Photoshop, when he knows there are close to a million $$$ at stake.

I can see how it can sound hypocritical, but that's not the way I intended that to sound.

BFL is continuously accepting pre-orders, even tho they haven't shipped yet, I get that. However, Josh's interactions here and on the BFL forums have been large in response to current customers (and trolls, but we won't go there). I haven't seen them actively trying to get new customers. In fact, Josh has said that when their Single do ship, the product will speak for itself.

But then we get Avalon, who was supposed to be opening pre-orders for Batch 2, with some very severe stipulations: 1) They had only shipped 1 product to 1 customer. 2) BTC only (aka no cc chargebacks). 3) No refunds, under any circumstance. Those 3 just made it sound a lil fishy, and I was glad when they postponed. Postponing gives #1 time to hopefully fix itself, and maybe they'd consider #2, or at the very least #3.

You're exactly right, I won't find any "trusted veterans" based on your criteria of "high certainty". As you may have missed, I believe I phrased it like this:

You seem to be under the impression that this particular phrase is a synonym for "high certainty", which is far from the case and a probable cause for your confusion.

 Well, what can I say... you were wrong too about interpreting the forum's general opinion. "The number of veterans" who casted doubt about Avalon were almost all posters with no credibitily, no trust, and a history of trolling and making wrong guesses. Just because someone is a veteran (has a high post count) does not mean he can be trusted.

I challenge you to list 5 trusted veterans who expressed a high certainty that Avalon was a scam -> you will not find any.

That's a skill you have to learn on a forum like this: determining who can be trusted in what they say/think vs. who is uninformed. A good starting point is to look at how dark the poster's "ignore" link is (the darker = the more persons chose to ignore him because what he says is not valuable).

WHAT?

Just because BFL is a bottomless batch 1 pit makes it okay for them to soak up millions in pre-orders over the course of EIGHT MONTHS without delivering anything but t-shirts and coffee mugs, but bad on Avalon for opening a 2nd batch(900 units total) whilst only having confirmed shipping one working ASIC unit?

Blatantly double standard much?

Well first, BFL isn't doing things in batches like Avalon is. And even if they were, and had only shipped one unit, I'd be saying the same thing. Until there is a large percentage of purchased units in customer's hands, why are they actively pursuing more sales?

You're going to hate the third batch then.

Interesting. By that logic BFL should immediately suspend new orders until they have SOMETHING shipped.

ONE >>>>>> ZERO

Was? Past tense? I was relieved when they postponed the 2nd batch orders. They literally have 1 unit in customer's hands. One. Uno. Lets see a majority of those 300 units shipped, and then talk about a 2nd batch.

Excellent post. There's nothing you can count on to protect you in this wide open BTC market aside from your own common sense. A large dose of skepticism is a survival necessity here. Though I'm pleased things have taken a turn for the better, Avalon was behaving in a very unprofessional manner and they had the criticism coming IMO.

Seems you just answered your own question..though I'm still unsure if you're a puppet account or not. Anyway, I was pointing out that a lack of substantial existence in this community (as in any community really) generally leads to naive posts...solely because you haven't become as skeptical as the rest of us. The world of Bitcoin isn't nearly as forgiving as a regulated market.



Couldn't have said it better myself.

Not everyone wanted to speculate... some seemed to agree that being patient was the right tactic.

I posted in the Avalon apology thread.  I was wrong, they didn't scam anyone.  However, it remains to be seen how they handle problems with the initial units.  But now people can place an order knowing that it's possible, and very likely that they will not be ripped off.

Could careless who is offended. The posts put forth a good argument that Avalon was capable and knowlegable and had a history in Bitcoin. Those who seemed to fan the flames of doubt based all their concerns on nothing more than speculation. Again too many of you people seem overly invested in BFL camp or the AVALON camp to really get any perspective. Again I posted yesterday that it is buyer beware... and that is a risk you can make if you know that losing 1500 USD is ok. It is laughable how many different theories were put out as to why Avalon hadn't shipped yet. Laughable. It was pure entertainment but you know what. BitSyncom wasn't laughing... he got pissed and that is understandable given the number of purely idiotic posts and accusations that were made. If you can't see that then you are part of the problem I guess.

Consistency of a post doesn't mean anything. I could be consistently helpful for a year and then suddenly become an asshole. That doesn't mean I was / will always be right on what I'm saying. I only felt the need to come back and defend myself (since I'm one of those who was a doubter) since the situation up to yesterday was doubtful at best and scammy at worst. A good business leader / marketer/ customer will walk away from this whole mess having learned that:

1.) As a business representative, you shouldn't tell the public one thing and then not live up to it; it breeds distrust. (I'm talking about the live demo)

2.) Doing a second round of orders (100% down) before anyone gets round one is probably a bad idea. We're still in the wildwest of BTC mining here and anything that smells like a scam has to scrutinized for others to know about.

3.) Business reps should not take things personally and get angry over accusations that their product isn't shipping / no one has it yet. The whole lack of tracking numbers / JGarzik not knowing where his package was lead to a lot of people getting concerned over (what has now turned out to be) nothing.

Now I have already applauded BitSyncom and team Avalon on shipping their first unit and I look forward to them shipping more units from Batch 1 & 2. However that doesn't mean that my concerns as a customer wasn't warranted or justified; it just means I'm less worried now that there is more proof in the market that their products exist and work. Cavet Emptor ("Buyer Beware") is a motto has served buyers for centuries and will likely do so well into our future. You should consider the feelings of the other side and see that their actions might not have been malicious but actually that of worried current or potential customers.

Yeah, also what if Avalon's are secretly not miners at all but are instead signalling the K'Thai-Gedek from Proxima Centauri that the time for the strikefleet to march has come?

You do know it is a forum and one can read past posts right? What does having a one month old account have to do with making an assessment based on the characteristics of the posts being made? BitSyncom from the earliest posts was pretty matter of fact about what he was proposing and why even though they were behind other teams was willing to go forward basically because there needed to be others in the ASIC game. I don't get why people would immediately jump to wild speculation considering the measured way things progressed in the forum posts. Go through and just read it. Unfortunately a lot of what is posted on top of the Avalon threads is not worth the time to read. This thread though certainly made me stand up and notice that BitSyncom was at wits end and was dying for some vindication. Good he got some... let's hope there is more to come.

Unlike many who seem to have vested interest in the outcome of this "scam" I do not. I think that gives me a different perspective than most who post here. Maybe being a NUB in this case is a good thing. Seems as if many people simply enjoy stirring the pot or are wildly over invested making claims and statements that have no basis if fact. Speculation is no matter how reasoned is still speculation. The guys from Avalon had experience had shipped other units in the past and have had a long history in Bitcoin. Why would I jump on board with the rest of the naysayers? Better to be pessimistic and as well informed as possible rather than speculating wildly with no evidence. They shipped... so just wait... that was the right response... considering the amount of information posted by BitSyncom and the track record of BitSyncom one could have easily waited patiently... seems to me there was anxiety produced without any evidence.

Consistency, eh? Funny, coming from the guy who's account is a month old...

Actually it's been the opposite in this case. A number of veterans here cast doubt over Avalon as a result of their sudden "BFL like" behavior, which is a lot more than I can say about the nonsense that surrounded BFL for quite some time. Avalon started out with some transparency, but when it came time to package and ship they suddenly went secretive. That's never usually a good sign, and resulted in quite a bit of reasonable unease. It was the "newbie" accounts that kept popping up noting Avalon wasn't a scam and that we were overreacting.

Given the information (or lack thereof) we had available to us, I found the unease and pessimistic speculation justified, if not warranted. People can only make informed decisions with information...take that away and we're left with our imaginations.