Topic: Avalon is (unfortunately) a scam. Here is why. - page 4. (Read 37929 times)

The consistency of BitSyncom posts warranted the THERE IS NO SCAM comment.

Does anyone know if Jeff was testing on "test net" without access to the Internet ? Avalon rig, may only be a controller for FPGA mine in China ( it's simple to implement). I know it sounds stupidly  but it should be the last final test. Jeff, if you're reading this, please check it.

Some vindication... let's continue to watch as more and more units come online over the next few weeks. That makes you feel better I bet Avalon... but you knew it would happen and if you
were able to read between the lines you could see that the building frustration and anxiety in the posts by BitSyncom was to me a dead give away this guys gives a shit about his product. You can't fake that sort of thing. He is invested and it comes through in his posts. Not a SCAM. Now let's see what BFL has to offer it's believers.

That's ok, take your time to reply when you are in front of a PC.

- "the whole forum was sure this was a scam" -> On the contrary, if you read the forums carefully you will find a very small number of critics with no credibility, and/or a history of trolling, making a lot of posts, but there is a much larger number of supporters (older accounts with more credence) who only defend ASIC vendors occasionally. The mere fact that BFL has so many preorders proves the large number of believers/supporters (and yes some of these customers in line are here just for the quick money and have no idea of the risks) - this is one of the reasons I say you are misinformed, because you failed to distinguish the general opinion of the forum members - but this is not your fault - it takes a lot of time to sift through the posts to filter out who can be trusted, who has the credentials, what information is important, etc

- "Chinese customers not speaking" -> firstly it is likely that ngzhang/yifu has literally just RUSHED a handful of units to the world so far, and that not a single Chinese customer was in this first shipped group (the bitcoin community is small in China compared to the rest of the world), plus there is the language barrier and they frequent different Bitcoin-related sites (have you seen the ridiculously small number of members posting in the Chinese subforum of bitcointalk.org?)

- "lack of video" -> If you were infomed, you would know that Yifu has explained they don't want to waste time trying to argue with critics, by providing videos, pictures, and so on, and that they would rather simply let the customers provide reviews/credibility. Again - not your fault to not know that - Yifu's post explaining their stance was buried deep in a thread.

Really I am asking you the question: is there anything we could have said that would have convinced you? Pointing out the top 10 most relevant posts from Yifu/ngzhang? Again I am just interested in the psychological aspects of the debate - sorry if you think I am trolling.

Not sure if trolling me or what. I knew that, however BFL has possible numbers, an history as FPGA maker and yet to ship. bAsics, almost the same. The whole forum was sure that this was a scam, the FACT that we where told lies is enought to prove it: why the Chinese customers didn't get their units if the only problem what to pass Chinese customs? Do we really belive that, again? They have problems they don't wont to admit with this avalon. Full point.
The million dollar they will get tomorrow will most probably fix these problems.

I think that you are the uninformed.

Edit, yes, I readed your post at the time but didn't tought it was worth replying. Everyone belive what they want to belive, you are one of the guys that would have paid in btc even without Jeff receiving its unit. You cannot say that hey, they just started shipping to Chinese customers, you can't except them to already have them. Yes, not in 3 days, but what about 2 weeks? Seriously? Also, the lack of the video, how do you seriously justify it? It dosent make any sense. Sorry, I'm from my phone and don't have the time right now to answer properly. I hope to have made a few points anyway.

Yes, salient points come out of passionate debates. What I meant to say is that there was a lot of repetition: the same arguments, repeated over and over, with people apparently never moving forward.

How would fewer debates and arguments improve anything? The salient points nearly always spring from the passionate debates/arguments.

Congrats Avalon, I haven't had much time to look over Jeff's posts yet, but the product he received looks very impressive.

You were poorly informed, because multiple details apparently unknown to you indicated that Avalon was likely legit:
- history of the guys, long-term members of this community (ngzhang and yifu had made and sold fpga devices, I personally bought fpgas from yifu)
- very conservative and plausible power consumption (150 Mhash/Joule)
- old 110nm tech, easier to design at than 65nm

I replied to your points of concern, but you seem to have ignored or not seen them:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1489135

I guess I am more interested in the psychology of this debate: what could we have said differently that would have changed your mind, that perhaps Avalon was legit? I am sure this boils down to poor communication and sharing of information between forum members. I am trying to understand how the communication can be improved. Because if it can be improved, there would be a lot fewer debates and arguments on these forums, hence it would improve the quality of the forum as a whole (and I am really interested in improving it.)

I hope you're not referring to me, because if you look over my post history, I thought Avalon ASICs were legit.

Idiot........

http://garzikrants.blogspot.se

So it's Schrödingers box of fans: It both is and is not a certain scam at the same time, but when you open the box it has to be one or the other.

There is a huge rush for both them and their customers, to get mining before the difficulty goes up or Bitcoin gets hit with some unpredictable event, like another flash crash, flaw found in the protocol, or MtGox raided, Silk Road shut down, or whatever. It's a bit like an arms race.

Hear, hear!  This season of All My Bitcoins is turning out to be a smash hit.  The upcoming difficulty doubling episode is even more exciting than the block halving!

I will never forget where I was when Jeff posted pics of the first consumer ASIC.

Best drama around, besides Utopia of course.

Wow, the Avalon may be a beast (power consumption / size), but that's a really clean case and internal layout.   Now, let's see if it can perform, and if Jeff can post a review prior to the opening of pre-order batch #2   This drama is just too good - and for that alone, thanks to team Avalon!    

Respect & +1 cedivad - real men aren't afraid to be corrected - stand up for what you believe.
I don't fault Avalon for trying to do things the way they feel is best for them - I don't think they've handled their customers particularly well recently - but they've been better than many and it turns out substance over hype is a better suit for how they want to be seen.  At the end of the day they've come through.  Nice job.

http://garzikrants.blogspot.co.uk/

Look at my first point. For the info we had 2 hours ago, it was a certain scam. Now everything changed.

I can only hope that everyone gets their orders and they all work minus 2 - 3 lemons.

At least ONE person got his. It's stange how all the Chinese orders haven't gotten theirs yet, but the one influential voice in the BTC community got his. I wouldn't be surprised if it "Gets even more GH than claimed!".

We'll see how that one goes. Price increase in batch 2... BTC only... No customer service... If it doesn't work when you get it, "too bad". They are going to walk away with the money. Let Jeff leave his DAZZLING review of the product. We'll see batch 2 sell out and Avalon disappear.

Cheers!  

No. Most critics did not say there is a "chance". They said with absolute certainty "it is a scam". Cedivad included: check his thread title.

These uninformed and misguided critics have been the root cause of most of the trolling and fights on this forum.

They don't need to apologize.

I never cried "scam" and I always maintained that Avalon, at least, actually did ship. Even so, I side with the sceptical here. They did nothing wrong. They pointed out, however shallow the logic, that there was a chance that Avalon was a scam. This is more information to everyone. This helps avoid groupthink.

The doubters need not apologize. In fact, I would like to thank them. It helps prove to the real scammers how difficult it would be to scam the community, such that even legitimate products are labelled scams. It ensures a better, safer community in Bitcoin's future.