Being unpredictable - page 10. | Bitcointalksearch.org

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Quote from: Lucasgabd on May 11, 2021, 06:18:49 PM

I'd bring this point on AI.

how long do you think for us to have modern AI being able to bluff effectivelly?

DO you remember how google translator was worse like 5 or 10 years ago?
translation is much better now and probably in 10-30 years human translators will have a hard time finding new jobs...

You talk about the past

As far as I know, neural networks have long defeated people in limit poker and the only stronghold where people still win is no-limit (although I have not been interested in this topic for a year, and perhaps this bastion has already fallen). And as I understand it, the AI should not be able to bluff to effectively beat people.

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Quote from: Lucasgabd on May 11, 2021, 06:18:49 PM

I'd bring this point on AI.

how long do you think for us to have modern AI being able to bluff effectivelly?

DO you remember how google translator was worse like 5 or 10 years ago?
translation is much better now and probably in 10-30 years human translators will have a hard time finding new jobs...

The problem is not that the AI is able to make a good bluff. This will certainly not be a very difficult thing. The problem is in AI being able to understand the bluff that humans are making.

Poker is not a game with finite options, such as chess. In poker, the player can have the worst hand in the world and still take a risk.
It will always be difficult for an AI to understand whether or not the signals that the player shows during the game are true or not.

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Quote from: Smartprofit on May 06, 2021, 08:11:44 AM

Quote from: Lucasgabd on May 05, 2021, 03:42:33 PM

Quote from: tyz on May 03, 2021, 02:00:05 PM

Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Is there a way that you can ensure being difficult to predict at Poker? For example, if you never bluff, people will eventually get to known that and it will reduce your ability to profit from good cards? Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

No, because there is a reason why hardly any casinos use computerized poker opponents. Simply because they do not play according to feelings but only according to probabilities. A bluff of yours is immediately exposed when the computer calls. Then you have to go out.

that is a curious point to bring to the discussion, differently than chess, on poker a computer may not be as good or have an edge on the game,
is it possible that a this statement doesn't hold true at all times?
will good human poker players always have an ede over computers on the long run?

The computer has long learned to beat a person in a game of chess.

People now play chess too, using computers to calculate combinations. Recently, the computer beat the world champion in the game of go. It is believed that the game of go is much more difficult than chess. It is a game with a huge number of possible combinations, and until recently it was believed that a computer could never beat a human in a game of go, since human qualities such as intuition and creativity were needed to win.

However, things turned out differently ...

With poker, everything is more complicated, because the game is based on bluffing. However, when poker is played online, the player has fewer opportunities to cheat and bluff.

Therefore, in online poker (in my opinion), modern AI will have an advantage.

I'd bring this point on AI.

how long do you think for us to have modern AI being able to bluff effectivelly?

DO you remember how google translator was worse like 5 or 10 years ago?
translation is much better now and probably in 10-30 years human translators will have a hard time finding new jobs...

South Park

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Quote from: tyz on May 03, 2021, 02:00:05 PM

Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Is there a way that you can ensure being difficult to predict at Poker? For example, if you never bluff, people will eventually get to known that and it will reduce your ability to profit from good cards? Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

No, because there is a reason why hardly any casinos use computerized poker opponents. Simply because they do not play according to feelings but only according to probabilities. A bluff of yours is immediately exposed when the computer calls. Then you have to go out.

But that is the thing we are not computers but humans, I think what the OP is looking for is for a systematic way of being unpredictable and while achieving that in a perfect fashion is impossible you can in fact become harder to read by simply adjusting your playing style and even the way you manage yourself at the table, one day you could be very talkative and the next time you face the same opponent you could be very quiet, small things like that confuse your opponents especially if they know you well and can give you a small edge when it matters.

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Quote from: Welsh on May 06, 2021, 08:15:18 AM

Don't play with the same people, that's really the only way of being unpredictable, even then if you've ever participated in high level sports, or anything for that matter as the skill level increases, you expect your opponents to be better, and therefore they will generally follow similar strategies, since its proven to work.

Going back to poker specifically, at higher leveled games, and therefore higher stakes at hand, its not unknown for the players to have studied the psychology of humans, and therefore attempt to look for these triggers which the player isn't even aware they are doing themselves. The fact is, our body gives off more indications off subconsciously, than we do while we are consciously thinking. The only way you can truly become unpredictable, is learning what your body does, identifying it, and then training it via muscle memory to prevent "leaking" these indications. There's a few books out there, and podcasts which talk about this side of the game, and generally we are talking about the higher staked games here, rather than your local pub get together game.

There are so many different games to train your communication skills. I have already written about one of these games, this is the Russian-Ukrainian psychological game "Mafia". The game "Mafia" allows you to train the skills of bluffing and lying.

This popular game has even been featured in a sci-fi feature film (Mafia (Survival Game):

https://youtu.be/IRrN5MQoxpQ.

It is also helpful to get training in acting. If you are a professional player, you can pay for the services of an acting teacher.

The instructor will purposefully teach you the art of bluffing while playing poker.

Welsh

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Don't play with the same people, that's really the only way of being unpredictable, even then if you've ever participated in high level sports, or anything for that matter as the skill level increases, you expect your opponents to be better, and therefore they will generally follow similar strategies, since its proven to work.

Going back to poker specifically, at higher leveled games, and therefore higher stakes at hand, its not unknown for the players to have studied the psychology of humans, and therefore attempt to look for these triggers which the player isn't even aware they are doing themselves. The fact is, our body gives off more indications off subconsciously, than we do while we are consciously thinking. The only way you can truly become unpredictable, is learning what your body does, identifying it, and then training it via muscle memory to prevent "leaking" these indications. There's a few books out there, and podcasts which talk about this side of the game, and generally we are talking about the higher staked games here, rather than your local pub get together game.

Smartprofit

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Quote from: Lucasgabd on May 05, 2021, 03:42:33 PM

Quote from: tyz on May 03, 2021, 02:00:05 PM

Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Is there a way that you can ensure being difficult to predict at Poker? For example, if you never bluff, people will eventually get to known that and it will reduce your ability to profit from good cards? Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

No, because there is a reason why hardly any casinos use computerized poker opponents. Simply because they do not play according to feelings but only according to probabilities. A bluff of yours is immediately exposed when the computer calls. Then you have to go out.

that is a curious point to bring to the discussion, differently than chess, on poker a computer may not be as good or have an edge on the game,
is it possible that a this statement doesn't hold true at all times?
will good human poker players always have an ede over computers on the long run?

The computer has long learned to beat a person in a game of chess.

People now play chess too, using computers to calculate combinations. Recently, the computer beat the world champion in the game of go. It is believed that the game of go is much more difficult than chess. It is a game with a huge number of possible combinations, and until recently it was believed that a computer could never beat a human in a game of go, since human qualities such as intuition and creativity were needed to win.

However, things turned out differently ...

With poker, everything is more complicated, because the game is based on bluffing. However, when poker is played online, the player has fewer opportunities to cheat and bluff.

Therefore, in online poker (in my opinion), modern AI will have an advantage.

joker_josue

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Quote from: Lucasgabd on May 05, 2021, 03:42:33 PM

Quote from: tyz on May 03, 2021, 02:00:05 PM

Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Is there a way that you can ensure being difficult to predict at Poker? For example, if you never bluff, people will eventually get to known that and it will reduce your ability to profit from good cards? Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

No, because there is a reason why hardly any casinos use computerized poker opponents. Simply because they do not play according to feelings but only according to probabilities. A bluff of yours is immediately exposed when the computer calls. Then you have to go out.

that is a curious point to bring to the discussion, differently than chess, on poker a computer may not be as good or have an edge on the game,
is it possible that a this statement doesn't hold true at all times?
will good human poker players always have an ede over computers on the long run?

If the game is not addicted to the computer. He will never know the cards that the other players have.
Therefore, it will only play based on its probabilities and the type of programming as it was built. And in that sense, it will depend a lot on who was the strategist who set up the AI for the game. Whether or not you are a good real poker player, and whether you take more chances or not. Normally the computer has been programmed with several strategies, the AI's ability to choose the best one for the game.

Now, since poker is more unpredictable and depends a lot on each human player, it is usually not as effective in poker.

In the case of Chess it is different, that there are defined rules and finite probabilities, cheating the well-programmed AI makes the game very difficult for an ordinary human.

Lucasgabd

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Quote from: tyz on May 03, 2021, 02:00:05 PM

Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Is there a way that you can ensure being difficult to predict at Poker? For example, if you never bluff, people will eventually get to known that and it will reduce your ability to profit from good cards? Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

No, because there is a reason why hardly any casinos use computerized poker opponents. Simply because they do not play according to feelings but only according to probabilities. A bluff of yours is immediately exposed when the computer calls. Then you have to go out.

that is a curious point to bring to the discussion, differently than chess, on poker a computer may not be as good or have an edge on the game,
is it possible that a this statement doesn't hold true at all times?
will good human poker players always have an ede over computers on the long run?

tyz

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Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Is there a way that you can ensure being difficult to predict at Poker? For example, if you never bluff, people will eventually get to known that and it will reduce your ability to profit from good cards? Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

No, because there is a reason why hardly any casinos use computerized poker opponents. Simply because they do not play according to feelings but only according to probabilities. A bluff of yours is immediately exposed when the computer calls. Then you have to go out.

South Park

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Quote from: YOSHIE on April 29, 2021, 01:46:58 PM

Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

Sometimes in the game of poker theory is not enough, but from experience losing and making changes (practice) can have good results in the future.

You are right, playing poker must have tricks and techniques to see the opponent's card, it is very difficult to explain here, without directly involving in the game.

Sometimes google provides a little description of the practice of doing poker betting tricks and techniques, for that this way: 9 Basic Poker Strategy Tips for Beginners, can add a little knowledge in determining the direction of the game of poker, at least to be better than before.

Poker like most things in life requires both, you need to have some theoretic knowledge about the game to be able to play it at a good enough level, but after some time your biggest improvements are going to come from putting in practice that knowledge and this is something that can only be achieved by playing, some of those lessons you will learn are going to be incredibly expensive but at least you are never going to forget them due to the cost you will need to pay.

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Quote from: joker_josue on April 25, 2021, 08:05:22 PM

Sometimes playing with newbies can get more complicated. Since they still have no addictions and, because of their lack of experience, they have a more difficult playing style to play. Able to make plays, meaningless to a professional and take risks in a totally "crazy" situation.

And them as newbies, they have the beginners luck but it's up to the people if they'll be believing on it. But as per experience, they really are lucky with their first turns and experience to play.

Quote from: joker_josue on April 25, 2021, 08:05:22 PM

This can sometimes make them win. But it is in this phase of apparent victory, that the experts are able to re-control the table, since the novice, begins to be more predictable and in this way the experts already have a better understanding of what may happen.

I remember it when I was a newbie player and played with my relative who's been into this game for a long time, I've got a good hand yet still lose due to his observation on me.

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Quote from: DoublerHunter on April 29, 2021, 03:41:23 PM

Quote from: Mauser on April 29, 2021, 02:56:28 PM

Keeping track of our winnings is very important, a past hand analysis should also be done whenever possible. To remain unpredictable the best idea is to play a large range of hand similar. If we play AK the same way we plat 910 suited than it will be very hard for our opponents to put us on an exact hand.

^ What was the importance of tracking winning? I do not see any relevance in this analysis in order for you to win.
I liked poker games but remember it is always different playing poker in the offline casinos than the online casino, there is no real bluffing in the online casinos. Bluffing is not just easy, you will probably ask a question in yourself first before doing such a bluff, like are you representing a legit hand? or even like what does my opponent think I have? Nevertheless, never show fearful players, let them keep guessing.

When it comes to experience then it is totally different or we can say that it could never be the same in terms of real user experience and essence so theres no point on making out some comparisons.
You cant apply those gestures and emotions when you do play online so there no point with that.I can say that it is a bit hard to deal up with opponents online
because you dont know neither they do have good hands or bad but eventually you can really spot out some behavior.

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Quote from: Mauser on April 29, 2021, 02:56:28 PM

Keeping track of our winnings is very important, a past hand analysis should also be done whenever possible. To remain unpredictable the best idea is to play a large range of hand similar. If we play AK the same way we plat 910 suited than it will be very hard for our opponents to put us on an exact hand.

^ What was the importance of tracking winning? I do not see any relevance in this analysis in order for you to win.
I liked poker games but remember it is always different playing poker in the offline casinos than the online casino, there is no real bluffing in the online casinos. Bluffing is not just easy, you will probably ask a question in yourself first before doing such a bluff, like are you representing a legit hand? or even like what does my opponent think I have? Nevertheless, never show fearful players, let them keep guessing.

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Quote from: YOSHIE on April 29, 2021, 01:46:58 PM

Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

Sometimes in the game of poker theory is not enough, but from experience losing and making changes (practice) can have good results in the future.

You are right, playing poker must have tricks and techniques to see the opponent's card, it is very difficult to explain here, without directly involving in the game.

Sometimes google provides a little description of the practice of doing poker betting tricks and techniques, for that this way: 9 Basic Poker Strategy Tips for Beginners, can add a little knowledge in determining the direction of the game of poker, at least to be better than before.

The most important thing about poker is that we shouldn't change our strategy because we lost one hand, or in one night. It can take a few hundred hands for our strategy to fully show itself. Keeping track of our winnings is very important, a past hand analysis should also be done whenever possible. To remain unpredictable the best idea is to play a large range of hand similar. If we play AK the same way we plat 910 suited than it will be very hard for our opponents to put us on an exact hand.

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Quote from: paxmao on March 19, 2021, 07:37:45 PM

Anyone there knows techniques or trick to avoid being easy to read?

Sometimes in the game of poker theory is not enough, but from experience losing and making changes (practice) can have good results in the future.

You are right, playing poker must have tricks and techniques to see the opponent's card, it is very difficult to explain here, without directly involving in the game.

Sometimes google provides a little description of the practice of doing poker betting tricks and techniques, for that this way: 9 Basic Poker Strategy Tips for Beginners, can add a little knowledge in determining the direction of the game of poker, at least to be better than before.

South Park

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I am terrible at Fantasy Football!!!

Quote from: joker_josue on April 25, 2021, 08:05:22 PM

Quote from: South Park on April 25, 2021, 03:24:50 PM

I am the first to admit that it took me a lot of time to understand this myself, and for a long time I just played in the same way regardless of who my opponent was, but this does not make sense, if you are playing against a newbie that barely knows the rules of poker then you need to play just solid poker because anything other than that will fly over their head, but when you are playing against a good player that is when you can make use of your arsenal of advanced plays, so as we can see adjusting to the type of opponent that we have is essential if we want to win at poker.

Sometimes playing with newbies can get more complicated. Since they still have no addictions and, because of their lack of experience, they have a more difficult playing style to play. Able to make plays, meaningless to a professional and take risks in a totally "crazy" situation.

This can sometimes make them win. But it is in this phase of apparent victory, that the experts are able to re-control the table, since the novice, begins to be more predictable and in this way the experts already have a better understanding of what may happen.

Correct, newbies are a pain to read, after all if you are playing against a player you consider good then you can narrow what kind of hands he could have based on his position and betting patterns and this could give hindsight of whether you are ahead or behind at the moment, but when it comes to a newbie this is impossible as they can go all-in with nothing on their hand and just rely on their luck and still beat you that way, which is why when I play against someone I consider a newbie I just concentrate on playing solid poker and grow the pot.

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Quote from: South Park on April 25, 2021, 03:24:50 PM

I am the first to admit that it took me a lot of time to understand this myself, and for a long time I just played in the same way regardless of who my opponent was, but this does not make sense, if you are playing against a newbie that barely knows the rules of poker then you need to play just solid poker because anything other than that will fly over their head, but when you are playing against a good player that is when you can make use of your arsenal of advanced plays, so as we can see adjusting to the type of opponent that we have is essential if we want to win at poker.

Sometimes playing with newbies can get more complicated. Since they still have no addictions and, because of their lack of experience, they have a more difficult playing style to play. Able to make plays, meaningless to a professional and take risks in a totally "crazy" situation.

This can sometimes make them win. But it is in this phase of apparent victory, that the experts are able to re-control the table, since the novice, begins to be more predictable and in this way the experts already have a better understanding of what may happen.

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Quote from: chaser15 on April 20, 2021, 05:20:47 PM

Why need tips and tricks if you already know the basics of playing poker?

Just play on your usual, it's much comfortable. And it's not something you are competing with strangers, it's your friends.

Enjoy the game, that's it.

I think that if the opponents in the game often play with each other, then the usual game is rather boring - like playing solitaire. Therefore, applying new tactics or interesting tricks can bring the game to life. In the end, the players get their main emotions not from the result, but from the process of the game.

South Park

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Quote from: joker_josue on April 19, 2021, 03:34:10 PM

Quote from: South Park on April 19, 2021, 02:48:17 PM

One thing to remember as well is that we also need to mix our style depending on the kind of table in which we are, we do not play against computers but other players and the table dynamics are going to be different in each game, if we see a table that is full of loose players that play many hands then tightening our style makes sense as you do not want to to play against those people unless your hand is rock solid, an if the table is composed mostly of tight players then you should adjust and become more loose, this way you can steal the blinds over and over again.

This is sometimes the problem for less experienced players, not being able to adapt their game to the circumstances of the table and their opponents.
To have this ability you have to play a lot, and maybe even lose many times. Play and watch others play.

Whether we like it or not, we all have a style, even with its possible variations. Therefore, we have to train this style, to be able to adapt it to the situations of the table, and in turn not to create clear patterns for the opponents.

I am the first to admit that it took me a lot of time to understand this myself, and for a long time I just played in the same way regardless of who my opponent was, but this does not make sense, if you are playing against a newbie that barely knows the rules of poker then you need to play just solid poker because anything other than that will fly over their head, but when you are playing against a good player that is when you can make use of your arsenal of advanced plays, so as we can see adjusting to the type of opponent that we have is essential if we want to win at poker.

Topic: Being unpredictable - page 10. (Read 5353 times)