Topic: Biblepay BBP Community Discussion Thread (Read 23801 times)

Nice of you to join PoG. I thought Orbis had a lot of prominence and then you beat Orbis 10x

I bought a Subway gift card using BiblePay. It came to me via FedEx from Walmart. Kind of neat to use BBP to buy gift cards.

Hopefully, he offers Amazon gift cards as an eCode. It'd be pretty easy to include a signed message with your e-mail inside.

I love how Rob sets conditions for redemption for others (including myself). Yet he never sets the same standards for himself. What an ego and lack of humility in his own follies. We're all human right? But it takes a courageous person to admit weakness.

I feel people don't invest in this coin because it is too complicated for unnecessary reasons. I think Rob's constant tinkering with what he calls "features" or "innovation" brings way too much headache to everyone else whom is more interested in a stable coin/wallet. His constant boasts of his ideas not having bugs and then later comes out there were bugs doesn't help either. Nobody is a perfect coder. It is one thing to say that nobody has reported a bug. It is another to claim that there "are no bugs". If he is all about sticking to the facts and "not misleading investors" then he needs to do just that. Rob was very clear what was in his heart when he immediately threatened to label me a Satanist because I disagreed with his reasoning on BOINC on Apple devices and Apple's stance on not allowing apps that pull executables from 3rd parties to run within the app. Apparently he knows more than several others Dev's that have been trying to get DC projects in the app store for almost a decade. I'm still waiting on them to accomplish their goal of an Apple miner app. If grandma cannot figure out Walmart Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Apple Pay, etc.... then he is delusional to think his app is anywhere remotely close to the common person or a 5 year old to use.

People continue to call this a charity coin rather than support Rob's idea. The core mission is to bring more to God. However, I don't see how all his gimmicks are really converting people to God. Charity work can do that but I don't see donating money converting people to God. I believe it comes from our labors.

Seeing how crummy this Dev treats those that have truly tried to help out and embrace this coin speaks volumes as to why many won't want to put money here. If you want people to come here, make another Dev the face of the coin.

As far as the argument on control. Sunk has a legitimate argument. One doesn't need 51% to have controlling majority. 51% is controlling ownership. When all it takes is 1 person to sway the decision one way but takes 25+ to sway it back, then that is definitely seen as having control. Especially when you rarely have 51% of the voters (not nodes) actually participating in voting. Those votes may "matter" from a philosophical stand point, but from reality they don't unless they are cast. One person casting a lot of votes is much more influencing than a few casting minimal votes.

This is why I state transparency is important.

That's been my intention all along, but somewhere along the way, I stopped caring. Only the Holy Spirit can change Rob.

I pretty much agree with everything you've just said secoccular

=

Without Rob there is no developer to continue BiblePay developing with the same time commitment and passion,
and as investors that is the risk we have taken investing into the project
(as opposed to Dash coin, that has a team of developers and large monthly funding to pay developers)
[I feel like maybe people didn't understand this risk when they invested though]

Theres the ideals of what people want things to be, and then theres the reality of how things really are

=

I very much value freedom of speech and open communication, and I have never silenced anyone (other than spammers)

(Sun decided the other day to ban Rob from Discord... I unbanned him)

If Sun is going to keep pushing his ownership/control interpretation though, I will keep pushing my interpretation, I do not want people being misled

=

I believe many in the project have been overly critical, and have spent time talking a lot,
which is okay, discussion is good and great ideas can come from that,
but we need to help spread the coin, to help grow the coin and increase the value,
we have lots of people with opinions (and many lurkers), but not many doers

I recently documented all my marketing/advertising ideas/discussions again:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.51053114
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.51053212
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.51062536

=

I dont claim to point any fingers, to me its as simple as it being a brutal 1 1/2 year bear market, and us going through a lot of changes

We havent spent much of any time/money/thinking on Advertising/Marketing,
we can have a great product, but if no one knows about it?

=

In the past few months I have:
- commented about BiblePay in multiple Bitcointalk threads
- commented about BiblePay on masternode articles
- updated the website to reflect all new changes
- updated the ANN post to reflect all new changes
- updated the mining guides
- posted my charity investigation into the public
- helped test new evolution code in testnet, helped others setup testnet masternodes
- continually post BiblePay updates to reddit and twitter
- clicked like on other Christians on Twitter, replied about BBP to other crypto charity initiatives on Twitter (Dash Text, Binance Charity Foundation)
- posted again about how PrivateSend/CoinMixing works and run one coin mixer
- tried to get Rapture coin to merge with us
- posted on all other Christian coin bitcointalk threads
- posted about cryptocurrency to a Christian subreddit
- confirmed that GIN hosted masternodes can vote
- still run the main block explorer
- contacted Christian / Libertarian websites
- wrote medium article, got us published on Masternode Buzz
- wrote recent email newsletter
- updated our Facebook and boosted a post, tried to get us enabled for ads on Twitter
- clarified our number of orphan sponsorships and how to view them

https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/togoshigekata-1087591
https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/togoshigekata-1087591;start=20
https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/togoshigekata-1087591;start=40
https://www.reddit.com/user/togoshige/
https://twitter.com/BiblePay/likes
https://twitter.com/BiblePay/with_replies
https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?action=profile;u=6;area=showposts
https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?action=profile;u=6;area=showposts;start=15
https://forum.biblepay.org/index.php?action=profile;u=6;area=showposts;start=30

Ive been mainly just trying to keep information flowing from the forums to the rest of our community and to the crypto community
and to help out where I can (updating info, helping test, etc)
I wish there was more funding so I could do more!

=

Many of you in this thread do not even have Forum Signatures to help spread BiblePay!
that is an easy first step to help spread BiblePay on the most highly used forum for crypto miners/investors!
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7s1qsy/bitcointalk_forum_signature_guide/

=

I think a lot of technical people are against marketing/advertising for some reason, they dont value it or they think lowly of it

I also think people do not like stepping outside their comfort zones either, but we are all part of this startup, we can all try on and wear many hats,
Do you guys really think I have any idea I know what Im doing LOL, Im just winging it

Your business analogy is not that relevant. We're talking control, not ownership. I'm not sure how at this point anyone is not calling this a monarch coin. I'm OK with that, but it is so strange to me that anyone would say Rob doesn't exert an incredible amount of influence over the coin. In fact, if it wins or fails, it's pretty much his doing. He seems to control the direction a lot.  He pushes his agendas, and seems to decide which direction things should go. Will anyone here describe Rob as open-minded, mellow, and deferring? No, he's a classic Type A personality. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it's so obvious to observe I'm unsure of how to debate a dissenting view.

The "Have you unkowningly surrounded yourself with only people that share your opinion?". That's a pretty funny projection. That's' the problem here, there's no real disucssion other than pro-Rob or anti-Rob. As a community, we really don't have much power. Even if we vote to go a different direction, Rob has stated he would quit. If the lead dev quits, the project is dead. That sounds like control to me. If anyone else quits, it's recoverable. If Rob quits, it's not. Not much of a choice when it comes down to it.

The assumptions and attacks on whether someone speaks for the community or not is ridiculous. We all have a voice, and trying to silence one says a lot. Communities that allow themselves to be torn apart and the monarch exerts control, usually die from lack of community support. This is just my observation from watching a whole lot of failed projects.

It doesn't matter how many lurkers there are. No one can guess that or speak to that. But one thing is clear, however many of them there are, they sure aren't buying the coin. Instead of pointing fingers, what is your idea Togo to get people to buy the coin. All this philosophy you and sunk are engaged in is empty if the coin ends up in the toilet like so many others. If we cared about the coin more, we'd address this issue instead of these debates.

Explain where I state I speak for the community of users? There are some that share my opinion. There are others that share your opinion. No one knows the exact numbers. I don't need to re-hash the conversation you posted from Telegram. Unless there's something new you want to cover, you're just wasting both of our times.

If its silly to debate opinion, then why do you keep debating?

The data is that Rob only owns ~20-25% of masternodes, but somehow in your mind, this means he is in control

Im not sure how anyone who owns 25% of anything is in control of it?
If I own 25% of a business, am I in control of it? No

Its a silly opinion to have, and youve gone down a silly path of weird definitions to push your opinion

I believe in your mind that you cant believe that there are other people in the community who actually support proposals that Rob supports

Have you unknowingly surrounded yourself with only people that share your opinions?
Do the messages from other community members you see only represent a subset of the community?

You act as if you speak for everyone else in the community, You do not

Like Ive said before, there are many in the community who lurk, who dont talk, who are in the background, but yet you speak for them? You do not

20% to 25% sounds about right. I said 125-150 masternodes at last count. I already gave you links but you just rather argue some position then actually appreciate the analysis I've done.


You can have an opinion like we do. Silly to debate opinion.


You know, this is exactly what people did for the vote to change from 1.55M to 4.5M BBP for a masternode. You know what happened? On April 15, Rob went ahead and used 40M BBP to create more masternodes to vote with: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924063.htm

So, it is quite laughable when Rob suggests masternodes vote on important issues. When they do, he will go ahead and out vote them anyway. If he really wanted to listen to the will of the community, he wouldn't pull such stunts to maintain power.

I went through 50+ pages of old Rob posts and found these relevant posts:

===


===


===


===


===

Understanding BiblePay Masternode Governance:
http://wiki.biblepay.org/UnderstandingGovernance

===

Robs publically claimed he owns 20-25% of masternodes 3 months ago

Id still like to see your analysis though Sun

I still support the masternode system and I support Rob owning whatever he owns

===

The criticisms the masternode system faces are not new, read these Dash comments:

IAMA Masternode owner who rarely votes
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/567o23/iama_masternode_owner_who_rarely_votes/

MNO voting behaviour
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/alfmn1/mno_voting_behaviour/

Best way for non-masternode DASH users to influence DASH budget proposals?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/5ay0vl/best_way_for_nonmasternode_dash_users_to/d9mb99f

We should change voting from Masternodes to EVERYONE
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/64fuyf/we_should_change_voting_from_masternodes_to/

Will masternode voting eventually lead to Dash being controlled by the wealthy?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/7dthw5/will_masternode_voting_eventually_lead_to_dash/

===

I disagree with sunk818 and secoccular on their view of non-voters and how it relates to control, non-voters still have control, theyre choosing not to use it and to let the proposals go the direction they are going, if they cared to change the direction of a vote, they would vote --- Any masternode owner has money on the line, why would they choose to not vote if it went against their view on how to increase the value of their money?

Masternode Owner Confession from an above link:
"I have masternodes, and I rarely vote. I run masternodes for a friend, who rarely votes. I see a lot of arguments about people upset that proposals often pass or fail with less than half of nodes voting. I dont think those people understand the reasons why so I thought I would give some insight.

Am I lazy? No.

Do I give a shit? Yes

Then why do I rarely vote?

Because I am happy with the outcome most of the time. When I do vote, it's often last minute on a proposal that's close, or risks superseding something I care about. If it doesn't meet one of the above criteria, I don't vote."

Wow, if ever a post could have used a TL;DR.

So the gist is a discussion about how many masternodes Rob controls, and how that affects voting and his power.

I think it's a fallacy to say someone needs 51% of masternodes to control the vote. That's only true if 100% of masternodes cast votes. I don't have a sanc because I have a moral issue with masternodes, but I have a hard time believing that 100% of masternode owners vote on each proposal. Does anyone know on average what percent do vote?

Even having 1% more than the combined voting power of those who vote, is enough to tip the scales. Even less than that is needed, because some people are going to vote with the dev or with which direction the proposal seems to be going.

I have no proof of anything, but my gut tells me there's something that's being hidden. The anonymity seems strange in this case. Maybe it's justified. Over time, I think less.

I think if larger investors are going to come back in, they're going to want to know what the real distribution of power is. I wouldn't dream of making more than a modest investment without knowing how the voting works in real life. I still can't decide if this is a monarch coin or not.

sunk818, [07.05.19 12:36]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Rob put a proposal in to change GridCoin to have masternodes component and the community voted against him. So, he learned from that. He made BiblePay added a masternode component and has had voting control through masternode ownership ever since.

Togoshige, [07.05.19 12:40]
@sunk818 Do you have any proof that Rob has "voting control" of BiblePay?

Togoshige, [07.05.19 12:40]
to have full voting control you would need to own 55%+ of the masternodes ("Proposal approval occurs when yes votes minus no votes equals 10% or more of the total available votes.")

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:08]
[In reply to Togoshige]
I've done blockchain analysis to see how many masternodes he owns. I estimate he has 125-150 masternodes. That means he has voting control..

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:14]
[In reply to K - GIN▪XZC▪ZEN▪POLIS]
Dangerous in the sense that power is consolidated to fewer people and those that want to join now need to purchase more BBP to get involved. This will ensure Rob will cement his voting power plus spend less on hosting fees to do it. Its a win-win for him.  Unfortunately, the voting details are not working right now... https://forum.biblepay.org/cc/governance/116850 — but when non-Rob masternode holders voted against this proposal, all of the sudden, there was a 100 yes votes, then another 25 yes more from recently created masternodes originating from addresses that Rob owned. They came from the Orphan Foundation address and his Proof of Giving (BME6) address.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:15]
@sunk818 Document your analysis for all to see and view over, otherwise its just speculation

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:15]
I just want to be clear that this project is centralized lead by one person. Nothing wrong with that. Many small altcoins have to operate this way. Its that Rob wants to give this miscommunication of the project being "decentralized" by a "community".

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:15]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Anyone can see on the blockchain. I've posted the links on Discord before.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:15]
Assuming Rob does own 25% of masternodes, how is that voting control? Only 35% have to vote against

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:16]
Do you understand what "voting control" means?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:17]
What does voting control mean to you?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:17]
Why are you trying to FUD what I've written?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:17]
Why are you spreading FUD?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:17]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Apparently, not the same as yours. You want to count total masternodes.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:18]
Explain your definition then

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:18]
[In reply to Togoshige]
There's no FUD in what I've written. — only truth.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:18]
because 150 masternodes out of 600 masternodes is not control

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:18]
rob votes + other votes = total votes

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:19]
rob votes / total votes = rob has voting control

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:19]
You have no documentation to back up your claim of how many masternodes Rob may own, show me your full documentation/analysis

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:19]
You assume people that are not voting dont count?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:19]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Why? You're already calling me FUDster.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:20]
[In reply to Togoshige]
people that do not vote are not voters.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:20]
that is by definition

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:21]
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?772869.htm

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:21]
follow the biggest output - that leads you to: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924074.htm

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:21]
Choosing not to vote is a choice, they still have voting power, but you seem to like to not count them in at all

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:22]
What is the Total Votes for your equation?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:23]
[In reply to Togoshige]
not voting is a choice, but by definition, that is not a vote.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:23]
I just looked at the consolidation proposal, there were 424 total votes

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:24]
Assuming like you say that Rob has 150 votes, thats 150/424 = ~35%

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:24]
that is not voting control like you claim

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:25]
and you still have not shown your full analysis/proof of how many masternodes you believe Rob to have, it is just speculation

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:26]
I just gave you a link.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:27]
If that's your attitude, I don't need to bother.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:27]
You gave a link that shows 39 million BBP

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:28]
Rob only needed 10% over 163.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:28]
Ive disproven your claim of voting control

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:28]
Unless voting control to you means 25% masternodes, 35% of masternodes that vote

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:28]
LOL

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:28]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Not really. You picked one proposal that had the biggest turnout ever.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:29]
Look at every other proposal that passed since the inception of the project.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:29]
Oh so now the parameters of what Total Votes means changes? And all the non-voters get cast out still?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:32]
total votes are by proposal. how else do you calculate it?

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:32]
non-voters are not voters. why do you keep bringing up a point that's a red herring.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:33]
Just because they dont vote now on something, doesnt mean they wont vote later, look at the consolidation proposal

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:33]
Yes, I have no argument with that. What's your point?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:34]
You claim Rob has voting control, assuming your numbers, I disproved you on that, or do you feel that my analysis is incorrect?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:35]
Or will your stance change to, "sometimes" Rob has voting control lol

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:35]
because of others not voting

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:35]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Yes, your analysis is incorrect. You looked at one proposal.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:35]
There were others that voted yes on that proposal.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:39]
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924071.htm is the link I sent you for Apr 2019 where he created 25 masternodes to swing the vote his way.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:48]
Im all for transparency, but youve made false claims of voting control and keep changing your definitions and parameters on it, and on the masternode ownership count you havent documented your analysis publically all together in a report and have only given 2 explorer links today —— I want the truth to be spread, not speculation, and youve been spreading speculation as fact

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:53]
[In reply to Togoshige]
That's your opinion. I've made no false claims. Your reception to the link I've posted shows you're not interested in transparency.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:54]
I've not changed any definitions on the definition of "voting control". You misunderstand what it means to vote vs owning a masternode.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:54]
I guess you're not familiar with how the voting process works.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:55]
sunk818, [08.05.19 12:18]
rob votes + other votes = total votes

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:19]
rob votes / total votes = rob has voting control

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:55]
Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:23]
I just looked at the consolidation proposal, there were 424 total votes

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:24]
Assuming like you say that Rob has 150 votes, thats 150/424 = ~35%

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:55]
And then after that you couldnt define what  "total votes" means

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:56]
total votes is 424.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:57]
plus the 4 that put in abstain vote

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:57]
Then how does your claim that "Rob has voting control" stand up against this?, Ive shown that Rob, by your numbers, Did in fact not have voting control

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:58]
150 is enough to influence the vote and have voting control

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:58]
So now your definition changes once again

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:59]
My definition hasn't changed. You keep saying that.

sunk818, [08.05.19 12:59]
You think he needs to have 250 yes votes to have voting control?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:00]
He just needs to vote enough to get to 10% net yes and that's voting control for DASH & BiblePay.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:22]
Your spreading misinformation that Rob has control of voting, Ive disproven you, Why cant you accept it?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:24]
[In reply to Togoshige]
LOL, because your assertion is not true.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:24]
In your mind, b/c someone may own 25% of masternodes, they are somehow in control, And thats not true at all, To be fully in control, to where no one could ever vote against you, you would need to own 55% of masternodes, so the other 45% could not outvote you, so that youd always have to the 10% you need to pass

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:25]
Your math is bad because only the masternodes that vote count in any proposal.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:25]
Youve gone down some weird path of this definition of yours "voting control", which doesnt make any sense

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:26]
Ugh, it makes perfect sense. You've never voted on board proposals in real life?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:26]
Do you own stocks at all?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:27]
I went along with you on your definition of "voting control" to see where it would go, and I showed a case where Rob could not have had "voting control" and you dismissed it and changed definitions again and brought up some "influence" factor, And yet you still claim he has "voting control"

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:28]
[In reply to Togoshige]
I'll give you a hypothetical. Say Rob didn't want this to pass or there's a proposal for lapdances at a strip club. He could vote his 150 NO on the proposal. He has voting control because he can bring up the result he wants on any proposal. That's voting control.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:33]
Your definition changes once again, now "voting control" is, having enough votes to sway a controversial proposal in either directoin after everyone else has voted ———— What if it were 50 Yes votes and 50 No Votes on Proposal X, does that mean anyone with 10+ masternodes would have "voting control" by your definition?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:35]
[In reply to Togoshige]
That's not an accurate example.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:36]
Its misleading to get the answer you want.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:36]
Do you agree Rob made extra 25 masternodes ~April 15?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:37]
Lets not mix the two subjects yet, Im still trying to understand your definition of "voting control", it keeps changing

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:37]
https://chainz.cryptoid.info/bbp/tx.dws?924074.htm

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:37]
[In reply to Togoshige]
😂 I'm not going for your bad example. Its not the same.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:37]
I provided a good example, and applied your current definition of "voting control", but now you claim that that is not "voting control"?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:37]
lol

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:37]
That's a terrible example. My example is actual numbers.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:38]
My question though is related about the 25 masternodes.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:38]
Bear with me.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:39]
So, the vote first-second week of April was the proposal was as NET NO.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:39]
Rob then made 25+ masternodes to get it to a NET YES

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:39]
Sun, maybe in fact, you are the one that is "misleading to get the answer you want.", I keep using your definitions and I keep proving you wrong, and you then keep changing the definition, and now you are saying my example is bad, when its a totally plausible and good example, before that you brought up some "influence" factor, how deep will you keep going to try and twist things and change things to fit your false narrative?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:41]
If it were a false narrative, then you'd have to explain why Rob reacted to  net NO on that proposal, created 25 masternodes, voted yes with them, to get to NET yes.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:42]
The blockchain has all the evidence written in plain sight for all to see.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:42]
Then why reject my previous example?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:42]
I applied the same logic and definitions that you have to that example

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:43]
"What if it were 50 Yes votes and 50 No Votes on Proposal X, does that mean anyone with 10+ masternodes would have "voting control" by your definition?"

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:43]
Alright, I'll bite.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:43]
""voting control" is, having enough votes to sway a controversial proposal in either directoin after everyone else has voted"

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:43]
150 yes/150 no.

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:44]
the 150 yes votes are from rob, and 150 no votes are from others

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:44]
25 more yes votes are from rob

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:45]
I accept your example

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:47]
So by your definition of "voting control", Rob only has "voting control" on controversial/split proposals with lots of votes? —- How often do we have split proposals like that? —-What of proposals where most vote in one direction? What of proposals where people dont really vote? —- Is there still "voting control" in those instances?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:51]
What do you think?

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:52]
look at march 2019: https://forum.biblepay.org/cc/governance/104550

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:52]
Im trying to understand your definition

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:52]
You rejected my example of 50 yes votes and 50 no votes meaning anyone with 10+ masternodes has "voting control"

sunk818, [08.05.19 13:54]
I accepted your example... I just changed it to real world examples 150 yes / 150 no, with 25 yes.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:54]
so 50 yes and 50 no could not happen in the real world?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:57]
And in your example of 150 and 150, could not another person with a high amount of masternodes change their vote or decide to vote as well?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:57]
Could not many people with a small amount of masternodes together decide to vote in one direction to chnage the vote?

Togoshige, [08.05.19 13:59]
Do the other whales not have" voting control"? Do those on the sidelines not have "voting control"? Do other groups of fish collectiveley together not have "voting control"? —- Or only "Rob" has "voting control"? With this assumed 25% of masternodes

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:00]
[In reply to Togoshige]
What's the reality vs the hypothetical. All your hypothetical obviously have a yes... do the proposals in real life bear that out? no.

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:01]
Essentially, we're stuck at total masternodes (togo) vs voting masternodes (me).

Togoshige, [08.05.19 14:06]
Youve continually been unable to define your concept of "voting control" and keep changing it ——- I proved a real world example of Rob not having "voting control" you wont accept it —— I believe your trying to push a narrative of Rob being in control of voting, when in fact he is not in control —— I believe you are spreading misinformation and misleading people

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:12]
[In reply to Togoshige]
Sorry, you've proven nothing.  If that's your opinion, you can have it. You're stuck on my "definitions" because that's seems to be the only thing you can attack. How does it feel to say to you are right? We will let the real community decide.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 14:23]
Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:23]
I just looked at the consolidation proposal, there were 424 total votes

Togoshige, [08.05.19 12:24]
Assuming like you say that Rob has 150 votes, thats 150/424 = ~35% voting power

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:31]
Yup, for BiblePay that's enough for voting control of every proposal.

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:31]
Its been a blessing because Rob never had to vote with that many, but he had to show his hands when so many NO votes appeared.

Togoshige, [08.05.19 14:35]
Sun your assuming my motives and feelings —— My goal is to increase the value of BBP, Im not sure if you share that goal —— especially with your words the past weeks given your falling out with Rob ——- Im not enjoying debating you, I feel down actually —— Ill gladly post this debate for all to see so they can make up their own minds

sunk818, [08.05.19 14:37]
[In reply to Togoshige]
My goal is to increase the value of BBP as well. Not at the cost of transparency. Honesty is so important to a project, and there's a lot of trickery going on with Rob's framing BiblePay as "decentralized community" BiblePay is.