Bitfury: "16nm... sales to public start shortly" - page 60.

GSpgh

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Quote from: 64dimensions on December 21, 2015, 10:17:55 AM

Quote from: QuintLeo on December 21, 2015, 03:57:51 AM

14/16nm full custom will be the last major efficiency improvement - for a few years.

IBM has already announced they're researching 8nm (IIRC) for the next generation process.

So here is what is confusing. If 14/16nm is due out within a few months, this would severely shorten the useful life of the A6/S7 models. Yet the network hash seems to say that a lot of money was dumped on these very models. If true, even the big boys might have problems with ROI. One wonders if BITMAIN et al would recoup their 1385 development costs. You would think the the competitive intel of the bigs would be accurate.

Speaking of IBM, one of their old tricks used to be to pre announce their next model of large systems to forestall customers from buying their competitors hardware.

of course Bitmain will recoup their costs

their miners are selling as fast as they can make them

their customers might not be as lucky though

not sure about Avalon they aren't interested in selling in small quantities and their pricing sucks

64dimensions

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Quote from: QuintLeo on December 21, 2015, 03:57:51 AM

14/16nm full custom will be the last major efficiency improvement - for a few years.

IBM has already announced they're researching 8nm (IIRC) for the next generation process.

So here is what is confusing. If 14/16nm is due out within a few months, this would severely shorten the useful life of the A6/S7 models. Yet the network hash seems to say that a lot of money was dumped on these very models. If true, even the big boys might have problems with ROI. One wonders if BITMAIN et al would recoup their 1385 development costs. You would think the the competitive intel of the bigs would be accurate.

Speaking of IBM, one of their old tricks used to be to pre announce their next model of large systems to forestall customers from buying their competitors hardware.

QuintLeo

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14/16nm full custom will be the last major efficiency improvement - for a few years.

IBM has already announced they're researching 8nm (IIRC) for the next generation process.

rupy

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Would be nice with some passively cooled 16nm chips to heat the cottage in the forest. The Monarch is awesome for heating when underclocked but seen how they meltdown completely if the fan breaks (firehazard, I use two fans in push/pull and fingers crossed) and also I'm thinking 16nm is the last major efficiency improvement.

dogie

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dogiecoin.com

Quote from: QuintLeo on December 20, 2015, 06:33:27 AM

I don't see Bitfury ever being listed on the NYSE, as they're too "secretative", they're too SMALL, and they are not a US company anyway (depository shares at MOST, similar to what some Canadian companies like Pengrowth do, but more likely on NASDAQ than NYSE).

If you look at the case docket in the Bitfury vs exCFO case, they have incorporations all over the place, including at least 2 in the US that I remember.

64dimensions

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Quote from: QuintLeo on December 20, 2015, 06:33:27 AM

Quote from: 64dimensions on December 18, 2015, 07:00:38 PM

Along with the fixed string voltage option, I'm wondering why ATX power supply manufacturers don't use a move from the old HP playbook and come out with an option "B" for their high wattage power supplies.

Not part of the ATX spec, and would add significant cost to them.
They would also be less efficient, as they can't be designed to maximise efficiency at a specific operating voltage.

The whole point to a string design is to not NEED a voltage regulator on the board at all, dropping the cost substantially. The tradeoff is flexability to tailor the voltage for max output or max efficiency.

I don't see Bitfury ever being listed on the NYSE, as they're too "secretative", they're too SMALL, and they are not a US company anyway (depository shares at MOST, similar to what some Canadian companies like Pengrowth do, but more likely on NASDAQ than NYSE).

Sorry, not quite true.

At some point in time, some ATX power supplies were built with fine adjust pots for the different output voltages:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=765175

In terms of efficiency, if there is an on board final adjust pot, this would only move the +12V output bus by a few percent. Doubtful that it would change the efficiency much. The point I'm making is that if there are designs that still have this onboard pot, this is useful info for the A6 and other string miner users. The tradeoff being that you void the warranty by opening up the case and also expose yourself to hazardous voltages.

QuintLeo

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Quote from: 64dimensions on December 18, 2015, 07:00:38 PM

Along with the fixed string voltage option, I'm wondering why ATX power supply manufacturers don't use a move from the old HP playbook and come out with an option "B" for their high wattage power supplies.

Not part of the ATX spec, and would add significant cost to them.
They would also be less efficient, as they can't be designed to maximise efficiency at a specific operating voltage.

The whole point to a string design is to not NEED a voltage regulator on the board at all, dropping the cost substantially. The tradeoff is flexability to tailor the voltage for max output or max efficiency.

I don't see Bitfury ever being listed on the NYSE, as they're too "secretative", they're too SMALL, and they are not a US company anyway (depository shares at MOST, similar to what some Canadian companies like Pengrowth do, but more likely on NASDAQ than NYSE).

Dobmaster

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Quote from: generalt on December 17, 2015, 09:28:38 PM

Just when I was hoping difficulty increases would stabilize a little bit this will keep the ball rolling for a little longer if they do release this soon.

The difficult will keep on rise for at least 10% every two weeks for the next 3 months. Bitmain is still supplying the market and so will the Bitfury.

Mitak

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Good idea , but I think the problem is how much these PSU's will cost.
I think there are adjustable Voltage 12V PSU's , just the price tag is not ''good"

64dimensions

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Along with the fixed string voltage option, I'm wondering why ATX power supply manufacturers don't use a move from the old HP playbook and come out with an option "B" for their high wattage power supplies. Option B would entail having a recessed screwdriver driven adjustment of the 12V bus. There are so many user communities that could use an output from +12V to +13V+. Functionally the miner designers should off load voltage control and efficiency to the power supply types anyway.

Mitak

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Yep we have a common spot on the last one
Wink

sidehack

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Curmudgeonly hardware guy

I never said I didn't like strings, just that I don't like fixed-voltage options. I do also really want to play with some of these chips.

Mitak

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Of course you are right but
20W @ 0.5V is what - 40 Amps for the same 24 Chip design you are looking @ hell of a DC-DC in terms of cost and MCU resource to control it.
In fact I made very rarely string designs in my practice but here it would be a great advantage

sidehack

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Curmudgeonly hardware guy

Just throwing this out there, but you will never see me and mine endorsing a fixed-voltage solution, even if it means sacrificing some of the profit margin. People paying for gear deserve better than that.

Mitak

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I have to agree on this.
But in terms of PCB design - mining board price the most interesting point for me would be if there is a string option implemented .
Let us speculate a little bit
Then in modest power mode you'll have 11-13 w per chip with 0.5V
So 24 chip blade will run @ 12V 264 w .
Sounds nice and even the risk with the daisy chain setup it will be hell of a price for the PCB and BOM if it is possible.
I personally do not like Bitmaintech's designs , but the fact is that this is the bestseller and best retail sales ever organized in the bitcoin mining hardware .
I just do not trust Chinese and do not like the way they eat everything else

sidehack

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Curmudgeonly hardware guy

So, a bit of a question.

Quote

The design target was 40 gigahash per second with power efficiency of 0.06 joules per gigahash. On average, the measured power efficiency of tested engineering samples of the new BitFury Chip ranges from 0.055 joules per gigahash to 0.07 joules per gigahash
...
J / Gh metric in working modes starting from 55 Gh/s up to 180 Gh/s follows an almost linear relationship of 0.0011, while at 40 – 55 Gh/s measured slope converges to plateau.

So, let's see if I follow what they're saying. At 40-55GH the efficiency is pretty flat around 0.06J/GH (with deviation as noted above), and above this the J/GH increased with a slope of 0.0011

So the J/GH could be estimated by .0011(G-55) + 0.06 for any given hashrage "G" (greater than 55).

Which means at 55GH/0.06J they're drawing 3.3W and 100GH gets us about 0.11J/GH for an 11W chip. The 140GH air-cooling max sees 0.15J/GH and 21.5W dissipation. That's a pretty hot chip; I wonder how big it is to handle 22W under air cooling. That's getting into the A1 neighborhood, about where the A3222 ran if I'm remembering right. Quite a bit hotter than the BM1384, whose practical air-cooling limit was about 13W. Also the consideration that if it's doing that 21.5W at a tidy low voltage, say 0.6V, that's 36A per ASIC to get top clock.

100GH/11W would be a pretty solid operating point, probably more like 0.5V 20A which ain't bad to design around. A pair of, say, S1-sized boards with 20 of those ASICs per and volt-adjustable would get you a 4TH miner off around 550W wall down to 2TH from around 125W wall.

fr4nkthetank

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Now the money is free, and so the people will be

You may be right. After all, they will need to cash out at some point

wlefever

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Quote from: d57heinz on December 17, 2015, 08:00:59 PM

Not when they have cooling like this.. Im sure that more will move to cooler locations aswell.. Most of this hashrate isnt joe blow with a cpl ths heating his house for the winter. Just seen this on blockchain/ That facility can house a ton of miners.. And at the efficiency they claim!! Gonna make for interesting next few years at:)

https://youtu.be/uV7MDhqNyXE?t=27s

Best Regards
d57heinz

True for them, but I was speaking on the other non immersion cooled mines. Thanks for that vid though! Never seen it.

Quote from: fr4nkthetank on December 18, 2015, 10:09:00 AM

Quote from: dogie on December 18, 2015, 05:28:06 AM

Quote from: adaseb on December 18, 2015, 04:38:14 AM

Quote from: QuintLeo on December 18, 2015, 04:36:55 AM

Quote from: generalt on December 17, 2015, 09:28:38 PM

Just when I was hoping difficulty increases would stabilize a little bit

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Not this year.
Perhaps middle of NEXT year, with a drop at the halfing for a short while.

You've OBVIOUSLY not been paying attention to "new gear in production" or "new gear available SOON" announcements.

They have been having these announcements all the time. Wasn't KNC suppose to come out with some 0.05Gh/W miners also in 2014?

Like Cointerra in 15Q1.

Bitfury has its own PR weirdness which is why we have to be cautious with promises. Talk is cheap when you're paying close to 7 figures a year for PR.

To sell lightbulbs in 2015
Takes 4 months to announce actual 16nm testing data after tapeout
Announces 28nm launch 6 months after previously announcing it... which has disappeared
Bitfury to be maybe listed on NYSE in 2014
And because its a VC'ed company in control of its own publicity, you don't hear the bad stuff. Like they allegedly terminated their CFO in order to not have to give him $10m of equity he was allegedly promised by one of the CEOs. They're now being sued and trying to minimise discovery, link to filed documents here.
Or that they have a Cayman Islands company. I mean who does that, seriously.

Bitfury will not be listed on the NYSE....going public means having top notch and clean operations and finances.....verified finances. Reporting obligations. Regulation by SEC and others...methinks Bitfury is full of crap, and = "oh invest in us, we got all these new products, hype hype hype such wow, and you'll cash out and make a killing when we get listed on the NYSE, give us money money". my 2cents, I smell the bullshit from here.

I see it different actually. I could see them going public because like you say they love the hype, and new product so what better than the first harware/mining manufacturer to go public? Not to mention we know they have been making a killing through their private mining operations what would stop them from playing on that hype, and making even more money with a highly pumped IPO? Just my 2 satoshis...

fr4nkthetank

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Now the money is free, and so the people will be

Quote from: dogie on December 18, 2015, 05:28:06 AM

Quote from: adaseb on December 18, 2015, 04:38:14 AM

Quote from: QuintLeo on December 18, 2015, 04:36:55 AM

Quote from: generalt on December 17, 2015, 09:28:38 PM

Just when I was hoping difficulty increases would stabilize a little bit

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Not this year.
Perhaps middle of NEXT year, with a drop at the halfing for a short while.

You've OBVIOUSLY not been paying attention to "new gear in production" or "new gear available SOON" announcements.

They have been having these announcements all the time. Wasn't KNC suppose to come out with some 0.05Gh/W miners also in 2014?

Like Cointerra in 15Q1.

Bitfury has its own PR weirdness which is why we have to be cautious with promises. Talk is cheap when you're paying close to 7 figures a year for PR.

To sell lightbulbs in 2015
Takes 4 months to announce actual 16nm testing data after tapeout
Announces 28nm launch 6 months after previously announcing it... which has disappeared
Bitfury to be maybe listed on NYSE in 2014
And because its a VC'ed company in control of its own publicity, you don't hear the bad stuff. Like they allegedly terminated their CFO in order to not have to give him $10m of equity he was allegedly promised by one of the CEOs. They're now being sued and trying to minimise discovery, link to filed documents here.
Or that they have a Cayman Islands company. I mean who does that, seriously.

Bitfury will not be listed on the NYSE....going public means having top notch and clean operations and finances.....verified finances. Reporting obligations. Regulation by SEC and others...methinks Bitfury is full of crap, and = "oh invest in us, we got all these new products, hype hype hype such wow, and you'll cash out and make a killing when we get listed on the NYSE, give us money money". my 2cents, I smell the bullshit from here.

philipma1957

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'The right to privacy matters'

Quote from: d57heinz on December 18, 2015, 09:32:51 AM

I think the best result to come of this news is it's making Bitmain supporters/sellers squirm a bit. I smell a price drop on miners coming soon😜 Well for me regardless of who is throwing the hash online. For me the cat is outta the bag. 1 ex is on the cusp and like I've said buying miners now to only have the network jump 40% is just silly. Been there done that with s1's. Only bad deal then price was dropping crazy aswell

Best regards
D57heinz

You were the first to call this. Plain and simple.

The bottom line is they have a big farm. Has to be 180 to 225 ph or more. The only hope is they take it on and off line for a reason.( still has overheating issue?)

The evidence is

http://btc.blockr.io/charts

Dec 9 --------- 174
Dec 10 -------- 212 peak test?
Dec 11 -------- 157

Dec 13 -------- 137
Dec 14 -------- 197 peak test?
Dec 15 -------- 185 two days in a row?
Dec 16 -------- 162
Dec 17 -------- 159

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