BITSTAMP eXchange wall Observer. second biggest and best exchange - page 38.

Walsoraj

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Quote from: Coinseeker on August 12, 2013, 11:32:14 AM

You are absolutely wrong but I wish you good luck in court with that "interpretation". Basically, your "legal" argument is, if an entity doesn't file for a business license, they can buy and sell all the volume they want because they are not actually a "business". Again, good luck with this argument. I hope you win and set precedence. For now, I know it's a delusion.

This is pure LOL. Filing docs are not required for court to determine you operating biz. The reason persons file docs is to recieve additional biz benefits. FOr example liability protections. Make loans easier to get etc.. But courts are aware that lots of ppl try to get away with running businesses without filing docs. lol, they don't get away with it. There is a "common law" definition that courts apply. Also, when idiots operate businesses without filing docs, they don't get lots of statutory protections. You are subject to all the laws without the benefits of protections

lol at the stupidity in this forum. talk to areal lawyer.

Walsoraj

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General def near top of doc:

Quote

Definitions of User, Exchanger, and Administrator

This guidance refers to the participants in generic virtual currency arrangements, using the terms "user," "exchanger," and "administrator."6 A user is a person that obtains virtual currency to purchase goods or services.7 An exchanger is a person engaged as a business in the exchange of virtual currency for real currency, funds, or other virtual currency. An administrator is a person engaged as a business in issuing (putting into circulation) a virtual currency, and who has the authority to redeem (to withdraw from circulation) such virtual currency.

A proper lawyer will interpret the more specific clarifications in context of general def'n. Are you poor or something? Sit down with a lawyer to discuss the guidance. They will tell you that what will trip up most bitcoiners is the "engaged as a business" language. That is not defined anywhere and is not always intuitive. You need not file docs w/ secretary of state to be considered a business. Legal courts will impose this def'n on you if you are doing something for profits and it is your sole source of income/how you earn a livelihood.

You dum poor people need to talk to a good lawyer.

Coinseeker

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Quote from: Walsoraj on August 12, 2013, 11:25:02 AM

Quote from: joesmoe2012 on August 12, 2013, 02:11:06 AM

Quote from: Walsoraj on August 11, 2013, 05:19:07 PM

Coinseeker,

i believe those administrator/exchanger definitions apply to those "in the business of ...." Look near top of that fincen doc. I cannot find definition of what constitutes being in business. But, the lawyers to which i paid lots of dolars say lots of cases have clarified the def'n. The average btc user or speculator is not in the business of doing anything w/ bitcoin. A day trader might be. Bottom line is if your livelihood or sole source of income is from moving around coins, then fincen should be a concern to you.

If you are operating a ripple gateway or exchanging bitcoins (i.e. on localbitcoins) and are not registerd with FinCEN then you are breaking the law in the USA. Doesn't matter if your buying bitcoins or selling bitcoins, if you're doing it for USD then you're breaking the law.

Hi, you can't read.

Operating a ripple gateway mostly likely means you are running a business revolving around bitcoins and in that case would be subject to the admin/exchanger definitions. As I explained above.

Consult w/ a lawyer about that Fincen guidance. If they are any good, they will catch the general rule about operating a biz and the more specific rules further down that apply to biz operatings.

Dumy, don't challenge me.

You are absolutely wrong but I wish you good luck in court with that "interpretation". Basically, your "legal" argument is, if an entity doesn't file for a business license, they can buy and sell all the volume they want because they are not actually a "business". Again, good luck with this argument. I hope you win and set precedence. For now, I know it's a delusion.

Walsoraj

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Activity: 686

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Ultranode

Quote from: joesmoe2012 on August 12, 2013, 02:11:06 AM

Quote from: Walsoraj on August 11, 2013, 05:19:07 PM

Coinseeker,

i believe those administrator/exchanger definitions apply to those "in the business of ...." Look near top of that fincen doc. I cannot find definition of what constitutes being in business. But, the lawyers to which i paid lots of dolars say lots of cases have clarified the def'n. The average btc user or speculator is not in the business of doing anything w/ bitcoin. A day trader might be. Bottom line is if your livelihood or sole source of income is from moving around coins, then fincen should be a concern to you.

If you are operating a ripple gateway or exchanging bitcoins (i.e. on localbitcoins) and are not registerd with FinCEN then you are breaking the law in the USA. Doesn't matter if your buying bitcoins or selling bitcoins, if you're doing it for USD then you're breaking the law.

Hi, you can't read.

Operating a ripple gateway mostly likely means you are running a business revolving around bitcoins and in that case would be subject to the admin/exchanger definitions. As I explained above.

Consult w/ a lawyer about that Fincen guidance. If they are any good, they will catch the general rule about operating a biz and the more specific rules further down that apply to biz operatings.

Dumy, don't challenge me.

joesmoe2012

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Ching-Chang;Ding-Dong

Quote from: Walsoraj on August 11, 2013, 05:19:07 PM

Coinseeker,

i believe those administrator/exchanger definitions apply to those "in the business of ...." Look near top of that fincen doc. I cannot find definition of what constitutes being in business. But, the lawyers to which i paid lots of dolars say lots of cases have clarified the def'n. The average btc user or speculator is not in the business of doing anything w/ bitcoin. A day trader might be. Bottom line is if your livelihood or sole source of income is from moving around coins, then fincen should be a concern to you.

If you are operating a ripple gateway or exchanging bitcoins (i.e. on localbitcoins) and are not registerd with FinCEN then you are breaking the law in the USA. Doesn't matter if your buying bitcoins or selling bitcoins, if you're doing it for USD then you're breaking the law.

Walsoraj

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Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Ultranode

Coinseeker,

i believe those administrator/exchanger definitions apply to those "in the business of ...." Look near top of that fincen doc. I cannot find definition of what constitutes being in business. But, the lawyers to which i paid lots of dolars say lots of cases have clarified the def'n. The average btc user or speculator is not in the business of doing anything w/ bitcoin. A day trader might be. Bottom line is if your livelihood or sole source of income is from moving around coins, then fincen should be a concern to you.

Coinseeker

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Quote from: johnyj on August 11, 2013, 04:21:59 PM

I think the philosophy of bitcoin is decentralization, by doing this it can work cross the globe and be politically neutral. An exchange or gateway will have to follow the regulations of local government, which might not be interested for another country which have a different political situation

I don't care about FinCEN regulation because I'm not living in US, and I believe that many other countries will have different view on bitcoin than US. China could be a very big mover behind bitcoin in the future because all the mining equipment production will eventually be outsourced to there, and the chinese political system is totally different

We need thousands of localbitcoins-like website to connect local buyers and sellers, when there are more and more people have coins, local trading will be practical

Yeah, good luck with that...seriously. I personally will take hundreds of Ripple gateways over thousands of "localbitcoin-like" sites. Or even better, all those sites plug into the Ripple network too. Grin

johnyj

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I think the philosophy of bitcoin is decentralization, by doing this it can work cross the globe and be politically neutral. An exchange or gateway will have to follow the regulations of local government, which might not be interested for another country which have a different political situation

I don't care about FinCEN regulation because I'm not living in US, and I believe that many other countries will have different view on bitcoin than US. China could be a very big mover behind bitcoin in the future because all the mining equipment production will eventually be outsourced to there, and the chinese political system is totally different

We need thousands of localbitcoins-like website to connect local buyers and sellers, when there are more and more people have coins, local trading will be practical

Coinseeker

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Quote from: molecular on August 11, 2013, 09:38:54 AM

Quote from: Coinseeker on August 10, 2013, 12:21:45 PM

Quote from: johnyj on August 10, 2013, 12:03:10 PM

Quote from: Coinseeker on August 09, 2013, 09:37:16 PM

Quote from: johnyj on August 09, 2013, 09:22:53 PM

Ripple is a good concept, if they don't have that XRP thing, it will be more successful, XRP against the basic philosophy of bitcoin

You have to have a cryptographic currency inside the network to prevent against spam. Ripple doesn't work without it.

Anyway, ripple's gateway concept is much less flexible than a dealer in localbitcoins.com, those gateways will become the regulation and confiscation target

You think busts wont occur with a localbitcoin dealer? Please tell me you're joking. They are probably the easiest targets to bust. If you're buying/selling on Gox, Stamp or any other exchange, you are taking the same risk. These are all gateways. If you have no interest in dealing with exchanges/Gateways why are you posting in a bitstamp thread? Who also happens to be the most liquid Ripple gateway.

Bust? What are you talking about? Last time I checked it was not illegal to buy, sell, own bitcoins.

Unless that changes, local trading is a viable alternative for the people to acquire bitcoins for transactional and store-of-wealth purposes and also to buy fiat again if need arises.

Might be time to check again. Here's a couple of notable quotes:

An administrator or exchanger that (1) accepts and transmits a convertible virtual currency or (2) buys or sells convertible virtual currency for any reason is a money transmitter under FinCEN's regulations, unless a limitation to or exemption from the definition applies to the person.

Under FinCEN's regulations, sending "value that substitutes for currency" to another person or to another location constitutes money transmission, unless a limitation to or exemption from

A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter. By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter. In addition, a person is an exchanger and a money transmitter if the person accepts such de-centralized convertible virtual currency from one person and transmits it to another person as part of the acceptance and transfer of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency.

So, if such person is not a registered MSB, they are in violation of the law. However, it does not appear to be illegal to mine and spend virtual currencies for goods and services. There's plenty more in the link below.

http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html

molecular

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Quote from: Coinseeker on August 10, 2013, 12:21:45 PM

Quote from: johnyj on August 10, 2013, 12:03:10 PM

Quote from: Coinseeker on August 09, 2013, 09:37:16 PM

Quote from: johnyj on August 09, 2013, 09:22:53 PM

Ripple is a good concept, if they don't have that XRP thing, it will be more successful, XRP against the basic philosophy of bitcoin

You have to have a cryptographic currency inside the network to prevent against spam. Ripple doesn't work without it.

Anyway, ripple's gateway concept is much less flexible than a dealer in localbitcoins.com, those gateways will become the regulation and confiscation target

You think busts wont occur with a localbitcoin dealer? Please tell me you're joking. They are probably the easiest targets to bust. If you're buying/selling on Gox, Stamp or any other exchange, you are taking the same risk. These are all gateways. If you have no interest in dealing with exchanges/Gateways why are you posting in a bitstamp thread? Who also happens to be the most liquid Ripple gateway.

Bust? What are you talking about? Last time I checked it was not illegal to buy, sell, own bitcoins.

Unless that changes, local trading is a viable alternative for the people to acquire bitcoins for transactional and store-of-wealth purposes and also to buy fiat again if need arises.

Coinseeker

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Quote from: johnyj on August 10, 2013, 12:03:10 PM

Quote from: Coinseeker on August 09, 2013, 09:37:16 PM

Quote from: johnyj on August 09, 2013, 09:22:53 PM

Ripple is a good concept, if they don't have that XRP thing, it will be more successful, XRP against the basic philosophy of bitcoin

You have to have a cryptographic currency inside the network to prevent against spam. Ripple doesn't work without it.

Anyway, ripple's gateway concept is much less flexible than a dealer in localbitcoins.com, those gateways will become the regulation and confiscation target

You think busts wont occur with a localbitcoin dealer? Please tell me you're joking. They are probably the easiest targets to bust. If you're buying/selling on Gox, Stamp or any other exchange, you are taking the same risk. These are all gateways. If you have no interest in dealing with exchanges/Gateways why are you posting in a bitstamp thread? Who also happens to be the most liquid Ripple gateway.

Quote

When it comes to interfacing with existing banking system, the best way is decentralize to every private person. Currently you can not do large size transaction on localbitcoins.com, but this exactly proved that bitcoin's popularity is still very low, that is the real transaction volume, not made up by some market maker in exchange

Sellers on localbitcoin are just local market makers. Not sure what your point is here. You're complaining because exchanges/gateways can handle large volume and can do so because of market makers? I don't know much but I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about. If these localbitcoin dealers are not licensed MSB's they are going down eventually. It's just a matter of time before you start seeing Bitcoin stings. I think you, like some people here are afraid to like Ripple so you refuse to learn what it actually is and thus regurgitate or make up mindless FUD.

johnyj

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Quote from: Coinseeker on August 09, 2013, 09:37:16 PM

Quote from: johnyj on August 09, 2013, 09:22:53 PM

Ripple is a good concept, if they don't have that XRP thing, it will be more successful, XRP against the basic philosophy of bitcoin

You have to have a cryptographic currency inside the network to prevent against spam. Ripple doesn't work without it.

Anyway, ripple's gateway concept is much less flexible than a dealer in localbitcoins.com, those gateways will become the regulation and confiscation target

When it comes to interfacing with existing banking system, the best way is decentralize to every private person. Currently you can not do large size transaction on localbitcoins.com, but this exactly proved that bitcoin's popularity is still very low, that is the real transaction volume, not made up by some market maker in exchange

Coinseeker

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Quote from: johnyj on August 09, 2013, 09:22:53 PM

Ripple is a good concept, if they don't have that XRP thing, it will be more successful, XRP against the basic philosophy of bitcoin

You have to have a cryptographic currency inside the network to prevent against spam. Ripple doesn't work without it.

johnyj

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Beyond Imagination

Ripple is a good concept, if they don't have that XRP thing, it will be more successful, XRP against the basic philosophy of bitcoin

Actually the risk management part should be the responsibility of end user, e.g. always divide large capital transaction into small pieces. So in principle just an escrow service and an exchange rate is enough for anybody to trade it locally, a credit system of each user is even better, you don't really need a physical exchange, information is all you need

When you do transaction in existing banking system electronically, localbitcoins.com has advantage, banks won't be able to tell which transaction is bitcoin related, but they will easily spot which transaction was sent to a bitcoin exchange

ElectricMucus

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I'm a short term speculator, so tell me how am I supposed to use localbitcoin or OTC?

Ripple might have issues, but it's still the best potential alternative we've got in that regard. Uh and you do know ripple is endorsed highly by bitstamp, don't you?

Odalv

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 09, 2013, 05:31:38 PM

Quote from: Odalv on August 09, 2013, 05:02:25 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 09, 2013, 04:45:37 PM

Quote from: Walsoraj on August 09, 2013, 04:36:36 PM

fyi noobs, this is "fracturing" not decentralization of the market. The latter to remain absent until a true peer2peer exchange arises.

fracturing just makes bot manipulation easier because it costs less to do so. not good for bitcoin

Ripple is the closest thing and is pretty much the most hated project in this community. So now here is your "hope".

Cripple

... I would prefer localbitcoin or #bitcoin-otc.

Neither of which is an exchange in the sense that it would replace mtgox, at least for most users.

10s (tens) years old cripple project did not transfer enough amount (total sum of all transactions in the history) than OTC, localbitcoin or Gox in ONE day. ... I'm sorry if you cant see,feel or hear this :-)

rampantparanoia

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i vote coinbase

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: Odalv on August 09, 2013, 05:02:25 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 09, 2013, 04:45:37 PM

Quote from: Walsoraj on August 09, 2013, 04:36:36 PM

fyi noobs, this is "fracturing" not decentralization of the market. The latter to remain absent until a true peer2peer exchange arises.

fracturing just makes bot manipulation easier because it costs less to do so. not good for bitcoin

Ripple is the closest thing and is pretty much the most hated project in this community. So now here is your "hope".

Cripple

... I would prefer localbitcoin or #bitcoin-otc.

Neither of which is an exchange in the sense that it would replace mtgox, at least for most users.

Odalv

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 09, 2013, 04:45:37 PM

Quote from: Walsoraj on August 09, 2013, 04:36:36 PM

fyi noobs, this is "fracturing" not decentralization of the market. The latter to remain absent until a true peer2peer exchange arises.

fracturing just makes bot manipulation easier because it costs less to do so. not good for bitcoin

Ripple is the closest thing and is pretty much the most hated project in this community. So now here is your "hope".

Cripple

... I would prefer localbitcoin or #bitcoin-otc.

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: Walsoraj on August 09, 2013, 04:36:36 PM

fyi noobs, this is "fracturing" not decentralization of the market. The latter to remain absent until a true peer2peer exchange arises.

fracturing just makes bot manipulation easier because it costs less to do so. not good for bitcoin

Ripple is the closest thing and is pretty much the most hated project in this community. So now here is your "hope".

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