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Topic: (Closed) Butter Bot!: Premier Bitstamp, and BTC-E EMA Trading Platform (Closed) - page 50. (Read 274783 times)

sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Every bot that profits in US$ but have loses in BTC is plain dangerous for your finances IMHO. Can we please resolve this issue with some data? Can someone who trades with this bot post profits/loses per 1 BTC per month, form the begining of the month till the end?

For example:

July, started 1BTC -> ended BTC
August, started 1BTC -> ended BTC
September, started 1BTC -> ended BTC
October, started 1BTC -> ended BTC

Thanks.

Not sure why that is your opinion... it depends entirely on your goal.  For me the goal isn't to accumulate BTC its to accumulate USD Smiley

In other news BTC-E triggered a trade this afternoon but its questionable if its going to make any money.
legendary
Activity: 1974
Merit: 1077
^ Will code for Bitcoins
Every bot that profits in US$ but have loses in BTC is plain dangerous for your finances IMHO. Can we please resolve this issue with some data? Can someone who trades with this bot post profits/loses per 1 BTC per month, form the begining of the month till the end?

For example:

July, started 1BTC -> ended BTC
August, started 1BTC -> ended BTC
September, started 1BTC -> ended BTC
October, started 1BTC -> ended BTC

Thanks.
full member
Activity: 209
Merit: 100
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
Ok i need to play a lot more with the settings i see already...
Currently only playing with a bit play money... with manual trading i would have buy @470 bot did nothing with default setting. (only 1 hours instead of 2 hours)

For now i would sell @550-560 as I think we see another down later today, missed that chance as i want to see what the bot will do :-)

Probably these days trading manual is general better with these heavy swings...

Often $100+ swings a day.

To bad I missed the $900 swing.

But to make things clear i'm more investor, my biggest BTC assets I'm holding.
Invested a bit in Mining and with a very small amount I do Trading with the goal to get more BTC.

I feel better with BTC then Fiat money :-)

The haasonline bot is only working on Windows as I see...
Maybe also some other suggestions for what Bots to use?

hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
If you switch your charts to 1 week, it will show a near vertical climb when it reached 900, sharp climbs like that are a bad indication on sustainability. The stochastic indicators for that period also showed the market was way overextended in the positive. It was kind of obvious what was going to happen.

1 day indicators also show that the market should (for a short time) stabilize soon. Probably around 350 from eyeballing it.

Yeah, my bot sold when it was up high, not near 900 but close so I was happy. I then shut off BTCE trading for now. My MTGX settings are doing well still.

I was thinking it might be stable around 400. Hearing your guesstimate affirms that 2 minds are on similar thought, so that's good news.
full member
Activity: 163
Merit: 100
This has been an interesting week so far. My greatest achievement I think was eliminating the BTC-e chatbox thanks to Adblock Element Hiding Helper. All the Harpies, beggars and snake-oil was making me nauseous.

I see that people have, like me, been demoing Butter Bot. On Monday night I shut the bot off. Trust me, this was not the week to profit on EMA trades, but rather quick but smart betting (and luck) with volatile trends.

full member
Activity: 163
Merit: 100
Hey Pablo,

I think it would be nice if the bot would provide a chart with EMA lines so we could visualize exactly what different tweaks in our engine settings are doing. It would help noobs like me understand the product.

+100  Can someone retrofit the backtest data output to produce something if Pablo can't get it into the Roadmap?

Don't know if this helps, but if you visit bitcoinwisdom.com and tinker with the settings it may get you by. Under the parameters nav link you'll find ema settings.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
We should reach 400 by 4pm, maybe 8pm.



Yeah I'm holding on buying there just for this very reason.

I wonder if anyone has insight as to why things have levelled off/begun sliding down? I'm confident it'll shoot up again.
If you switch your charts to 1 week, it will show a near vertical climb when it reached 900, sharp climbs like that are a bad indication on sustainability. The stochastic indicators for that period also showed the market was way overextended in the positive. It was kind of obvious what was going to happen.

1 day indicators also show that the market should (for a short time) stabilize soon. Probably around 350 from eyeballing it.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
We should reach 400 by 4pm, maybe 8pm.



Yeah I'm holding on buying there just for this very reason.

I wonder if anyone has insight as to why things have levelled off/begun sliding down? I'm confident it'll shoot up again.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
We should reach 400 by 4pm, maybe 8pm.

member
Activity: 71
Merit: 10

You can increase your BTC holding, you just have to know how to set up the bot and what to expect from normal market activity.

If you had 20k at 130 USD, then you at 900 USD you should have made (in fiat) about 70k to 90k. When it comes back down to roughly about the same level, your bot will then buy BTC and increase your future earnings as it swings up again. Of course this may take months and a very volatile market. The next time (assuming the same level of volatility) you should have alot more BTC than you started with.

Though honestly, if you are looking for short term gains you'd have to look at a BOT that can look at different kinds of indicators and more than 4 thresholds. Hopefully B-Bot development goes down the same path as Haasonline.

I'm looking for longterm profit, i runned the test with different settings and i never got a way where it increase btc holding...
I'll continue testing...

Please note that you are testing configuration over a very long time period. In reality there different phases in the market where different settings work best (e.g longer time frames during slow and steady trends to filter out the small movements, smaller time frames and lower EMA values during triangle formations to catch the breakout ASAP etc) so  real profit can  much higher when you monitor the market and adapt the settings from time to time.

And finally to some (to me at least) running a bot is not only about maximizing profit but also about managing risk. I definitely sleep better knowing that the bot would get me out in case of any unforseen circumstances Smiley
newbie
Activity: 16
Merit: 0
Hi Guys,
I have to Qs to the users here and Pablo:

1) As back testing engine was nicely implemented into bbot wouldn't it be possible to use that mechanism and test all the possible EMA pairs and maybe even sell/buy thresholds against the past data and precisely tell which one is the best (at the moment)? Or this is the way you do it Pablo to tell us the best initial parameters? I just saw that EMA returns table created by Gombo's and was thinking is it possible to automated with bbot back testing engine.

2) In many places mentioning about trading BTCs it's mentioned that one should not keep neither bitcoins nor fiat on the exchange account (except the time of executing trade of course Wink. In the light of different hacker attacks and even exchanges disappearances it make sense although while using bots become a little troublesome. I was wondering then about your opinions in the matter; do you think it's safe to keep the money on exchange or it's a worthy precaution to keep it in you (offline?) wallet and transfer only after the  'first threshold' email?



P.S Sorry Pablo for not sending you the logs last time, API came back to normal after couple of hours. I'll try to stay cool(er) the next time ;P
       
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Any issues with the Bot Server side?

I woke up this morning and checked my bot and its showed no activity since 1 am

I am on Bitstamp and use 30 min checks..

I restarted by Browesr and now it just sits there saying Loading on the Bot screen..(Had to leave for work so not sure it ever came up)


My Internete is up and I can get to other web sites so dont think its my connection..

No one else having issues?



legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003

You can increase your BTC holding, you just have to know how to set up the bot and what to expect from normal market activity.

If you had 20k at 130 USD, then you at 900 USD you should have made (in fiat) about 70k to 90k. When it comes back down to roughly about the same level, your bot will then buy BTC and increase your future earnings as it swings up again. Of course this may take months and a very volatile market. The next time (assuming the same level of volatility) you should have alot more BTC than you started with.

Though honestly, if you are looking for short term gains you'd have to look at a BOT that can look at different kinds of indicators and more than 4 thresholds. Hopefully B-Bot development goes down the same path as Haasonline.

I'm looking for longterm profit, i runned the test with different settings and i never got a way where it increase btc holding...
I'll continue testing...
Probably because different settings are required to make what I mentioned above a profitable scenario.

One settings is good for uptrends, others are much better for downtrends. The bot is currently too simple to make effective decisions based on more than one trend. It will do "okay" in all scenarios. Fine tuned settings for one particular type of market will make it work very good in one direction, then switch, and play a different card.

The current B-Bot requires a lot of refinement and many parameters to do what people really want it to do. Till it gets it, we will just have to babysit it every day to assess what the current scenario is playing out as. And adjusting as appropriate.

For example, I knew when it peaked at 900 that B-Bot wasn't going to react very well to a flash crash on most current users settings. So I turned it off when I noticed the market was rising too fast in 1 day and did manual trading while expecting the inevitable retracement.

In about 15 minutes it crashed 300 dollars, sure, it recovered for a number of hours, but if the timing was off, B-Bot would have cost people quite a bit of their earnings. There is definitely lots of room for improvement.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
In either case, you should be encouraging B-Bot use and adoption. In the end, the more bots there are, the more volatile the markets will become.
full member
Activity: 209
Merit: 100
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol

You can increase your BTC holding, you just have to know how to set up the bot and what to expect from normal market activity.

If you had 20k at 130 USD, then you at 900 USD you should have made (in fiat) about 70k to 90k. When it comes back down to roughly about the same level, your bot will then buy BTC and increase your future earnings as it swings up again. Of course this may take months and a very volatile market. The next time (assuming the same level of volatility) you should have alot more BTC than you started with.

Though honestly, if you are looking for short term gains you'd have to look at a BOT that can look at different kinds of indicators and more than 4 thresholds. Hopefully B-Bot development goes down the same path as Haasonline.

I'm looking for longterm profit, i runned the test with different settings and i never got a way where it increase btc holding...
I'll continue testing...
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
It is designed to make a profit in fiat currency, not in btc.

ok then i must be to stupid to understand it?

43 btc * actual rate = always more then 22 * actual rate?
Bot says it "made" 12k
When another person bought 2y ago 43 btc and didnt trade he would have 20k+...
I don't see where it is making Profit then when it is losing money.. its just making profit when btc goes higher but with less then just holding the btc...

maybe my math is to bad to understand it correct but in no way i see making it profit in usd or btc...
You can increase your BTC holding, you just have to know how to set up the bot and what to expect from normal market activity.

If you had 20k at 130 USD, then at 900 USD you should have made (in fiat) about 70k to 90k (with this bot). When it comes back down to roughly about the same level as you started, your bot will then buy BTC and increase your future earnings as it swings up again. Of course this may take months and a very volatile market. The next time (assuming the same level of volatility) you should have alot more BTC than you started with. With each long term increase and decrease you should be holding more USD and BTC. If it only goes in one direction then you'd be losing BTC over the long term.

Though honestly, if you are looking for short term gains you'd have to look at a BOT that can look at different kinds of indicators and more than 4 thresholds. Hopefully B-Bot development goes down the same path as Haasonline.

(Disclaimer: EMA is probably not the most efficient route to compare to a buy and hold strategy, it is considered a "lagging indicator".)
full member
Activity: 209
Merit: 100
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
It is designed to make a profit in fiat currency, not in btc.

ok then i must be to stupid to understand it?

43 btc * actual rate = always more then 22 * actual rate?
Bot says it "made" 12k
When another person bought 2y ago 43 btc and didnt trade he would have 20k+...
I don't see where it is making Profit then when it is losing money.. its just making profit when btc goes higher but with less then just holding the btc...

maybe my math is to bad to understand it correct but in no way i see making it profit in usd or btc...
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
It is designed to make a profit in fiat currency, not in btc.
full member
Activity: 209
Merit: 100
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
I Bought the bot but I don't get the advantage of this bot?
When I test settings it show profit but I don't see this profit?

I see $ is growing yes but when I Calculate against BTC I see BTC amount is going lower?

Default settings 2y test:

21.11.2011 23:00:00   buy   2.270    $99.40   -0.60%
That are 43.788546256 BTC

After 2y:
20.11.2013 09:00:00   sell   535.900    $12225.74   12125.74%
That is sell of 22.813472663 BTC
you sell it as 12125.4% profit but in fact its loss of 21BTC ?

I would prefer to make more BTC instead of USD...
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
@ Interested folks who don't quite understand how Butter Bot does things:



If you look at the above graph, this is how EMA values are read by the bot at 1 hour or 2 hour intervals.

If you look at the first arrow in orange, it shows that EMA (and butterbot) works by measuring deviations from two different EMA values and spits out a difference measurement. From this it generates a column called "DIFF". A negative (down trend) in red means that the deviation is downward, while a positive one in green is in a up trend.

If you look carefully, you'll notice that even though the deviation is growing, butter averages it out over whatever the update period is.

You can have a very large price drop and butter will show a proportion of change based on it's update frequency. A gradual price drop over a protracted period might not set off your threshold values! <--- important point

Depending on your settings you will find that butter (can and does) report a "DIFF" of -0.2% at two VERY different price points even as the market continues to drop. It is a deviation measurement as the numbers it is using are (EMA values) that change over time.

Sharp drops [depending on your update frequency]  in a very short period of time register as a larger "DIFF". While long term drops register as a very small DIFF over a larger period of updates.



=============================

A potential mistake you might make when using the bot is the following:

If you mistake the DIFF measurements as being based on price...you'd be setting up the bot in the wrong way.

So if you set a threshold value (for either buy or sell) of a very large value, [1%+] then you are instructing the bot to only react when the DIFF value it measures has a very sudden change in market prices based on the two EMA values you have chosen. (NOT based on the price)

Your thresholds determine when the bot reacts. Larger values means the bot reacts at sudden changes between updates. The smaller thresholds describe smaller and more gradual corrections [up or down].

Butter bot treats all threshold values as positive numbers. <---- IMPORTANT POINT

Placing any negative number in the threshold does NOT mean the bot will look for price drops based on price. It will default to any DIFF larger than 0.

In other words, if you use -0.2 as a buy threshold, Butter bot treats the threshold value as "any DIFF number greater than 0". So you should use positive numbers instead in any of the 4 threshold settings which will not leave you confused as to what you wanted the bot to look for.

==========================

If you are the type of person who is looking for sharp drops, you should change your update period to a shorter value. This will tell butter to update more frequently and make measurements often.

If you are the type of person who is looking for trends over many hours and days (or weeks) you should use a longer update interval. (1 hour or higher). Butter will then ignore any sharp drops and rises and focus on the long term EMA deviations.

Basically, a longer update period will cause butter to smooth out sudden changes in favor of long term changes.

Shorter update periods will allow butter to react to sudden moment-to-moment large deviations (drops and rises) with extreme sensitivity. But beware because it may pay attention to noise rather than trends.


============================

I would suggest (and only a suggestion) that if you are in a down market (as we are right now) you focus on trends. If we are in a uptrend market, then you might want to use a fast update period and high DIFF setting.
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