Topic: (Closed) Butter Bot!: Premier Bitstamp, and BTC-E EMA Trading Platform (Closed) - page 49. (Read 274808 times)

Increasing your usd would make sense when btc in the longterm will decrease but btc in longterm only increase, so lowering you btc volume and increasing your usd volume is alsways losing value.

This would be ok with forex trading or some stock trading.

For BTC we must do it like btc is the main currency and we sell/buy usd on up/downtrends.

Like with default setting making 12000-13000 usd in the past 2y is increasing your usd *120  - *130 btc got worth 250* - 325* in that time, halving your btc volume just cost money...
When you traded in the same time as i said you would have made more btc and so also more usd...

Maybe it should just be an option in the bot to trade to btc-usd or usd-btc..

for me and the most others btc-usd don't make sense as you lose btc in longterm and so also usd ( even when usd volume increase ).

If you don't believe in BTC you could be ok with trading btc-usd.
If you believe in BTC your would trade usd-btc.

M,
  Another great suggestion, this was already on the board, we will be likely looking into this as soon as there is some free development time .

Pablo.

GREAT idea!

Will bring this up with the developer to see what he thinks, but I think it's a pretty good tool suggestion.

Pablo.

Hi Boozezela ,
   I would be very interested in seeing the logs for this if any of you still have them. Butter will trade all your currency for either Fiat or BTC once you enable it depending on the market signal. Depending on when the signal was triggered this may be an issue because remember: Butter issues "standing" buy or sell orders depending on the trend.

Regardless, I understand the issue here and I will bring it up with the developer to revise the mechanics of this.

Any feedback is welcome .

Pablo.

Trading on the ups and downs of a trend would mean having an guesstimate of where the trend will be at the end of the day.

If you spent $350 USD on 1 BTC this morning, sold it for $400 USD at noon, you have added to your USD balance.
If later, the trend continues to fluctuate as it rises to $550 you could purchase again, only your 400 will not get you a whole coin like before. If you sell it again at $600 you have again increased your USD balance.
At the end of the day, unless price of BTC drops, you have lots of dollars worth less in Bitcoin.

I am sure that you can trade on the same graph, though it would be more useful in your case to see it in terms of drop of dollar value per Bitcoin. Personally, I build up as much USD as I can until I see BTC drop as far as possible and snatch them up, but somehow I always end up with USD, and one of these days, I will be stuck with buying very expensive Bitcoin with my accrued cash.

What exactly would someone have to do differently to increase bitcoin than what he is doing now to increase fiat?

You say you want to buy and sell USD with Bitcoin.  But wouldn't you still be doing the same thing?

If you want to buy as much USD as you can with your BTC, you need to wait until USD is low.  Then buy as much as you can.  Then once the price of USD rises and starts coming back down, you sell your USD back for more BTC.

Example:
If 1 BTC = $600 then $1 = 0.00167 BTC, Point A
If 1 BTC = $500 then $1 = 0.00200 BTC, Point B

In the example above, USD is at its lowest (0.00167) BTC at point A when BTC is at it's highest ($600).  Likewise, USD is at its highest (0.00200) at point B when BTC is at it's lowest ($500).

Is this not the exact same thing?  Sure you could invert the graph, but you would just be flipping it upside down. The crossovers will still come at the same points.  You would still trade BTC for USD at point A and trade USD for bitcoin at point B.

If I am wrong, someone please explain why.  Thank you!

Folks, as a reminder, this is a long term strategic bot which is best used when the market isn't highly volatile as it is right now. Go look at the charts and history and you'll see we're on quite a ride this week, way up.. way down.. all over the place, spinning in circles. You can't expect the bot to be the wizard of oz and magically handle this by itself.

Things will settle out and the bot will keep on trucking.

When you buy and sell BTC for USD you should be trying to increase your USD balance. Buy BTC for low value in dollars, sell high for more dollars. Over the past week of micro-trading I've had to change my mentality. I started out trying to trade up .5 BTC to 1 full BTC and with the current volatility, I was on track. I caught myself halfway through the week - my BTC balance was not increasing as steadily as my USD balance was. In essence, when you trade on this current uptrend, you hope that the price of BTC will drop and you will be able to snap up lots of BTC to dump at for a better fiat price. As the trend goes up, I can buy fewer BTC at the high price, but my USD balance is increasing.

TL,DR - you're looking at the wrong charts if you want to trade for BTC balance. You need to be selling and buying USD on the BTC value.

Hi Pablo,

I have a request for a future version of Butter-bot.  Could you put in an option to set the FIAT and/or Bitcoin reserve by percentage instead of a fixed amount?  Ideally this would be user selectable, either percentage OR fixed amount.

This way, if you start losing on trades, ie due to sideways motion eroding your money, for each trade you would lose less and less.  Likewise, if you earned a lot on some really good trades, you could start earning more and more.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Thanks for reading!

Good point.

After many hours of backtesting I haven't found a single setting that comes even close to buy and hold.

Plus: If you don't trade with very low amounts you will always have higher costs than the mere trading fee because you affect the market. Between 1 and 2 % from my experience. With high amounts even more. In the long run these 1 to 2 or more % really add up.

Also: Depending on where you live you need to pay quite high taxes on the profits. In some places you don't have to if you hold for a longer period.

All this combined buy and hold seems much, much more attractive than EMA based trading.


So why use the bot?

It might be that it performs well if the markets move sideways or downwards. With the current backtesting tool I can't check this though because the endpoint is always the time I do the test. Therefore it would be good to be able to have freely selectable start and end dates in the backtesting tool.

It might also be that the bot works if one adjusts the settings depending on the market. High volatility settings for periods like the last couple of days and standard settings for the rest of the time. So far I haven't found good high volatility settings which performed well in periods like the last couple of days though. I someone has I would be really glad to here about that.

I guess we need reversed chart reading to make more btc with ema trading ( what generates also more dollars )

not btc- usd but usd-btc...

so it will sell btc when usd get more in value ( decreasing btc price ) and buy when usd get lower ( increasing btc price ).

Then ema trading will work to generate more btc but also usd as you could always sell your "more" btc manual when you want usd...

So as for now usd is on a downtrend...
When btc drops usd is in uptrend...

Yes, Chrome needs to be running.

Pablo,

Do you think this is the same bug I'm experiencing where the bot trades immediately upon being re-enabled every time? I still haven't re-enabled mine yet to catch it in the console log, but maybe will tomorrow so you have something to debug.

-NginUS

This might be a really stupid question. Do you need to have Chrome running to have this Bot working?  I didn't know if the code is running locally or remotely somewhere...  I don't want to shutdown my computer if I need Chrome running.

My goal is to gather the data. In every science you first gather the data, than you drive the conclusions based on them. You don't go to conclusions first, and adjust the data later. So, please anyone who actually traded with this both, can you look at your logs and give us these four missing numbers?

July, if started with 1BTC -> ended BTC
August, if started with 1BTC -> ended BTC
September, if started with 1BTC -> ended BTC
October, if started with 1BTC -> ended BTC

Got a test acc, not really working? What am I doing wrong??

I'll reiterate this to the new guys. If you ema trade in a volitaile market, you will probably lose money short term. Long term you might come out ahead, but probably not better than buy and hold.

How could you make more usd when you loss btc?

Example your bots starts with 50 BTC now you made lets say 10k usd Profit but you have 25BTC Left..
You didn't make profit because the Bot is good trading but only because BTC got more worth...

In my opinion a Bot should make good sells and buys to get more BTC what = more USD then...
Selling 1 BTC for $500 and buying back 0.5 BTC for $1000 isnt Breakeven its $1000 loss...


When you let the Bot run a Test for past 2 years with $100 starting and default settings it says:
Profit:13309.75%
It starts with $100 and 0 BTC:
First Trade:
22.11.2011 02:00:00   buy   2.289    $99.40   -0.60%
Last Trade:
20.11.2013 08:00:00   sell   551.106    $13409.75   13309.75%

First Trade you have: 99.40 / 2.289 = 43.425076453 BTC
Last Trade you had: 24.4332433325 BTC

43.425076453 * 551.106 = $23931.82
So you lost $23931.82 - $13409.75 = $10522.07

I don't get it how the bot count this as profit?
It only makes "profit" because BTC price increased in general.

When I do manual Trading I try to sell at high points and buy at low points on that way I can either keep the same BTC amount and just make more fake money or I can increase my BTC volume with buying more BTC from the USD made with the Trades...

So lets assume the Bot runs some years and it started 2y ago, it started with 43BTC in 2y you have maybe still Profit because 12 BTC are more worth then 24BTC today but again you lost half of your money...

I really don't get it.

Anyway i'm testing the Bot with $200 to see what it does... it bought today for $603-$604 ( i would have buy @470 manual but ok ).

But your goal is clearly to show you will have less BTC.  Could be true, but you could still have more USD.  So I'm not sure I understand.  The profit is very clearly displayed in USD.  The bot trades based on USD trade lines.  Its goal is not to make you more btc, its to make you more USD.  So whatever data you want to gather, its not going to change that.

Let's leave opinions behind, let's gather four rows of data. Than we my interpret it and have opinions.