Topic: Do you verify every bet as a gambler? Provably Fair Guide. - page 11. (Read 4879 times)

Whenever I’m playing a game online I do not check every bet I’ve made if the site really offers a provably fair system. This is very informative though I’m not that big player so the next time I'll check everything. This gives me an understanding of the process in an online game and also to many users or gamblers so this is very helpful especially to those who do not know how provably fair works.

Not really! Like I said, block hashes are not random and can bring the house in vulnerable situation if results are wholly based on the hash of new blocks mined. Moreover, no house wants to give away the control over the result generated by following data which is entirely out of its control. Server seeds make sure that house resides considerable control over the results.

While from the player's point of view, custom client seed is still a better option than block hash as a client seed.

So in short, there can't be a working system where new blocks could be either used as client seed or server seed. What Tower Bet did, they took a single hash and reusing it as client seed. Dynamic hashes won't work.

Whenever we risk a large money we must know where it will go, I also not very particular in fairness of the game as long as I enjoyed it I'm fine, but this time that Pandemic and it's hard to find a job and sidelines we must know where are money goes or if we will use it in gambling atleast we find way to win. Being able to calculate the provably fair of a game might help us in winning.

While I'm not also familiar on how it determined, there are casinos who provide calculation to those who are into fairness based player. Casineos Define Provably Fair iin their website as games and bets are considered "Provably Fair". Any randomness that is needed to play a game such as dice or blackjack is predetermined before the game starts. Using new blockchain technology they publicly publish proof of this and guarantee that all wagers for every game are truly fair. They are proud to offer truly fair games and encourage anybody to check the fairness for themselves. They even provide this page (https://casineos.com/#/calculate fairness) to give more detailed information and instructions for how the calculation is done, which is a plus factor for me in playing there.

Me too, I am only play but I do not know this thing, it seems that I need to know more about this, and not only I will rely on where does many people go, or play in gambling site, because before I only play to those site that are recommended by some people or where does many people go. I should consider to check this before I put a large amount of money in my chosen gambling site.

If you feel that something is not right with end results of your bets probably you'll be seeking
for some great reference on how things had been done.


Good thing that you are aware of those available system to check what's really happened
from your previous games, it helps a lot to verified the results.


Yes, thinking that everything relied with luck.


I'm not exposed with fiat based gambling house, if that's the case those who divert their attention to crypto based gambling site
are just there to play, win or lose they won't mind to deal with anything.

Thank you for the great explanation ! 



So at the point it is easy to ad some pepper and enforce the system just by also including every new block mined 

Thanks for bringing this up Danydee. I have checked the Fairness script for Hi-Lo game and it is perfectly fine. I will now explain how the provably script on Tower Bet works for Hi-Lo:


First of all, they had generated a bunch of server seeds. To do so, they started with an initial 32-bytes number and produces SHA-256 hash of the same successively many times. Let me give an example along with the explanation so things become more clear. Suppose initial 32-bytes number they chose is:

d8534cceef185bfa3b6dbc65e851417ab9d46212b4e8b15bedf3f4e2d5254214 (i)

Now we will generate sha256 hash of the above number, which will be:

0b2dbe3d322cff35b6645f9af323acae8526aaacbbf235b17e789d0f527ce318 (ii)

Now generating sha256 hash of (ii) will be:

e1966dcd64ea1f76edaeb07ebf217d9c8ec48d04c4a8af0d0e87d08d61cb1d21 (iii)

and so on...

Tower Bet did this process 100K times and the 100,000 hashes that were generated served as first 99,999 server seeds for Hi-Lo game. In our case, let say we generated 6 hashes then these five will serve as first five server seeds:

Fifth Server Seed: d8534cceef185bfa3b6dbc65e851417ab9d46212b4e8b15bedf3f4e2d5254214 - our chosen initial number
Fourth Server Seed: 0b2dbe3d322cff35b6645f9af323acae8526aaacbbf235b17e789d0f527ce318
Third Server Seed: e1966dcd64ea1f76edaeb07ebf217d9c8ec48d04c4a8af0d0e87d08d61cb1d21
Second Server Seed: 29224e31e42f72669d493d4081d4644e46ac2193292a8df7170187e62ba5affd
First Server Seed: 07fcd88c11bc970237e6e50d8c8259083dc94a3c2498596c6923b94a366ddb69
Hash that will serve as proof: e53cbb67f801cc4bc1a0f6c2674472f13fe04d6705ef56c450640a6cb0eec8d3

Now you may be thinking why we are not using 6th hash as a server seed? The reason being, sixth server seed will act as a proof that server seeds are not manipulated by house later on. Let me explain how. After generating 100K hashes, Tower Bet added the 100,000th hash in the Ethereum Blockchain as an input data in one of their transaction. This is the transaction in which hash is included:

https://etherscan.io/tx/0x1b5bf677610024e8f29cfec39400df2d55322f506da3128832247d535bba481f (t)

Go to the above link and view input data as 'UTF-8'.

In our case, we will put e53cbb67f801cc4bc1a0f6c2674472f13fe04d6705ef56c450640a6cb0eec8d3 as an input data in Ethereum blockchain by including this hash as input data in ETH transaction. This will make sure that it is the hash of first server seed i.e. 07fcd88c11bc970237e6e50d8c8259083dc94a3c2498596c6923b94a366ddb69 and house cannot change that later.



In single player games like dice where player is individually playing against house, client seed is decided on the sole discretion of the player. He can change the client seed before placing the bet (which I have explained in detail in the opening post). But in social games, where more than one player is playing the same game, it is not viable for every player to choose his own client seed. As an easy way out, house chooses same client seed for all the players based on some future-event which isn't in control of house. In the case of Tower Bet's Hi-Lo game, the client seed is the hash of the block in which the above transaction (t) is recorded. Since block is not mined by Tower Bet, they have no control on what would be the hash of block which makes client seed fair for every player. The block in which the above transaction was recorded is:
https://etherscan.io/block/10057525

The hash of this block is 0xbc81865617ce0e8aca17b09c8df81c549cc3d677f1da95ad6ae7622d1c2c357f and this is currently used by Tower Bet as client seed for every round of Hi-Lo game.

So this is flow which make sure results are not pre-decided:




Result is generated very simply. First they combine server seed and client seed like this:

CombinedSeed = serverSeed + ClientSeed

Then they generate sha256 hash of the CombinedSeed. Then first four hexadecimal characters are taken to generate the result.

Here is the result of one of the round:


You can see that:
Client Seed or Salt = 0xb52b2c17b28c83c6e452c76b9650915e24f09091af9a1f643ee61fc6ee60ea5d  (which is same as the hash of the block we saw in Step 2)
Server Seed = 26d42b14348ed56482511c5557c538766e7b97dc968e30a7cf9cd75cdd414c83

So CombinedSeed will be 26d42b14348ed56482511c5557c538766e7b97dc968e30a7cf9cd75cdd414c830xb52b2c17b28c8 3c6e452c76b9650915e24f09091af9a1f643ee61fc6ee60ea5d

The sha256 hash of CombinedSeed will be 3ebbde85c5231686eb8dfcd49d2df382ba22d99f042473db6aebf016f0e40ae0

The first four hexadecimal character will be 3ebb.

The decimal form of 3ebb is 16059 which when divided by 25 leaves 9 as the remainder. Since array starts with index 0, the result shall be 10th item in the array:

[Joker, 2 red, 2 black, 3 red, 3 black, 4 red, 4 black, 5 red, 5 black, 6 red, 6 black, 7 red, 7 black, 8 red, 8 black, 9 red, 9 black, J red, J black, Q red, Q black, K red, K black, A red, A black]

Since, 10th item is '6 red', the card shall be 6 of reds. In image, we can verify that the card is correct! Hence, Tower Bet is provably fair.



Storing pre-calculated data on blockchain as server seed and choosing future data as client seed to determine result is an impressive way to maintain fairness of social game where more than one player play at the same time. I really liked the idea. However, player must make sure that such data is recorded on reputable blockchain (only Bitcoin and Ethereum blockchains). If the data is recorded on the blockchain of some small cap cryptocurrency, it is possible that house itself mined the block and in such condition block hash maybe generated as per the will of house. Note that, block hash is not random. It is the hash generated by combining the block details like transaction, timestamp, pervious block's hash, etc etc. So for small cap coin, it is possible for miner to mine block at specific time to generate block as per his own will. But for Bitcoin and Ethereum chain, we can assume that hash of block mined is fair.

OP,

What do you say on that?



 There is some more projects that are using registering / registering on blockchain systems to garanty the non compromision ..

To be frank, I'm very rare to verify my bets especially if I'm playing in a trusted casino. I do verify my bets some time especially when I feel  something is unusual such as long loss streak and long win streak. Although I'm not that good in this kind of system but I can verify bets by using 3rd party verifier to make it easier. I also think that most gamblers especially newbies and/or recreational gamblers do not really care about this thing. As well as those who comes from fiat based casinos, I believe they do not care about it because most fiat based casinos has no provably fair system so once they move to crypto based casino then they wont care about what is this system about.

I think it's really hard to check the auto bet systems because if the vast number of individual bets in a short period of time. Personally I back to just use manual betting. It might be slower but it gives me a better feeling of what's going on. It also makes checking much easier. Being honest, I haven't checked bets for a long time.
I prefer gambling on casinos that have been around from some time and have many positive reviews on this forum. A good track record is an easy way to choose my favourite casinos.

Honestly, I am not a techy kind of person and I don't know how to verify hashes and how provably fair works. And I bet the majority of gamblers don't care much about the specifics of the system as long as the site is reputable and they are winning. This is really informative and it can help gamblers test the platform's fairness and verify bets, especially for new gambling sites.

I just google searched this in the past and I don't know if they are still updating this site for the people.

I checked this last year and I don't know if they are still active or not, I just bookmarked it since I might need it again. All I know is that at the time I needed these sites to check they show it to me. Maybe you could contact them since I don't bet that much in these sites nowadays.

I've known to checking each of our manual bets that we place on a dice site, but still not aware of checking the fairness of autobet rolls. Let's take an example of duckdice, if I play through their autobet feature and use flash in it, I won't be able to check each and every dice bet that it places. And I mostly lose on those flash bets, does it mean that the site is rigged? But what about the fact that I win sometimes when I manually play there?

Indeed. Many of us are surprised reading this fresh information for those who still do not know about this. It was really an interesting topic and at the same time a new knowledge worthy to be known by many people most specially those who are just doing bets but did not even care to check just because they are random bettors that play frequently and at small time bets. Actually upon reading this one, I come into realization that if ever I would try to do some bets again, I would try to check the Provably Fair script of the site I am currently using although it is known already to be popular and reputable. I just want to check the new information and knowledge I have learned from this thread since I am also a small bettor that is not verifying or checking my bets once I have done betting for I just play with small amount of bets. But with this thing, I have realized to make it a try to check it out.

This is really fascinating how this forum becomes helpful to each and every one to see information like this that is new for many and this was really an interesting knowledge to be known.

OP's effort in explaining how it works is very nice even it's too long, he explained the process and what and whys of doing it. You're reference will also be helpful to those who are lazy in readi g at the same wanted a list of casino's who offering the provably fair in their games, might bookmark it for future reference since their list is still few and they might add more in the future.

There was a thread similar about this about one gambler who find out that he is playing in a gambling site that shows different algo hash, but it was already rectified by the admin of that gambling site, so it's better that you checked before you play the game, it's to protect your funds and to also validate the integrity of the gambling site that you are playing.

Very true! A reputable and established casino site will not ruin their image by not exercising the provable fairness.
However, if you are a player, from time to time, it is better to check the fairness randomly, just to make sure their system is always working.
Because if there's a bug in the system, and if the casino is legit, they will be willing to rectify the situation and will not make excuses.
So the sites and other tips here how to check the provable fairness is really helpful in spot checking these casinos.

Reputable sites are mostly concern with their names, knowing that being fair is the main life of their business, they won't let this being ruined.



That's how this forum able to help those gamblers, this place is a good channel to reached those sites, as they are really concern with their reputations.

If you choose to play on a reputed gambling site then all the results are fair and if you can want then you can verify your random bets to see how their reputation goes. Actually people keep verifying their random bets and expressing their opinion about reputed gambling sites in bitcointalk as well and if there is some issue then you can report it to the site and can get bounty rewards for that.