First BFL ASIC! - page 22. | Bitcointalksearch.org

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legendary

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FPV Drone Pilot

If this goes on another 24 hrs I'm going to go on the offensive, personally. It appears someone with a large pro-BFL bet has gotten coinjedi's ear on this matter, and he is still "debating" in the face of overwhelming evidence for the correct decision:

Quote from: Gator-hex on April 02, 2013, 12:45:33 PM

The BFL ASIC never left the BFL Lab therefor it was never "shipped". Wink

Avalons where photographed being unpacked from their shipping containers.

Quote from: marra on April 02, 2013, 04:58:42 AM

BFL doesn't have a working device.

Quote from: KGambler on April 02, 2013, 11:45:37 AM

Have you actually received any correspondence from BFL backers claiming to have won the bet? That would be sad and pathetic.

I guess you have two options.

1. pay the obvious winners

2. pay the losers or cancel the bet, thus destroying the credibility your business relies upon

What a dilemma.

Quote from: ShadesOfMarble on April 02, 2013, 08:45:50 AM

What can be seen in the OP is NOT a finished product, nothing that will be shipped to customers.
When Avalon shipped the first two devices, those were the FINISHED products. The same products which were later received by "ordinary" customers.

This "shipping" by BFL is NOT comparable to what was shipped by Avalon.

People saying BFL has shipped should as well request to remove Matthew's scammer tag then.

Quote from: hardcore-fs on April 02, 2013, 02:01:24 AM

sorry a prototype is NOT shipped.

If I produce 10 boards with crap hanging off them and screws holding them to a table , then supply them to developers that does not count as shipping.

totally done with betsofbitco.in. This is very damaging for their business, and it pisses me off to see one of the more respected, older btc gambling sites making decisions (or indecision) that are so clearly influenced by the obvious losing side of the statement.

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legendary

Activity: 1232

Merit: 1014

FPV Drone Pilot

Quote from: Gator-hex on April 02, 2013, 12:45:33 PM

The BFL ASIC never left the BFL Lab therefor it was never "shipped". Wink

Avalons where photographed being unpacked from their shipping containers.

Really at a loss for words here.

really coinjedi?

Can't call this one yet? too close in your eyes?

I will not be placing any more bets at betsofbitco.in seeing how you can be 100% correct with your wagers and have the payout in question.

I can't bet like that. This is such a simple matter, the fact that coinjedi let JZ even briefly pause his decision on this statement is cause for concern. Imagine if something was actually, really close! how easily could coinjedi be manipulated one way or the other?

Korbman

legendary

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Quote from: Dalkore on April 02, 2013, 12:00:53 PM

Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013 - This is the title. It is quite specific. If bettors don't accept that this claim was the understanding of the bet, then those people are plainly trying to tell untruths. Even comparisons from the representative of the company (BFL) was to how the shipments of Batch #1 of Avalon were handled. By invoking that, you are implicitly implying that shipping the product to a customer is what the bet is about. What more do you really need? Any disagreement on these facts are just wrong. I am sorry to say it but it is true.

Am I wrong on this?

You are not wrong, and I understand what you're saying..but ..

Quote from: Dalkore on April 02, 2013, 12:00:53 PM

Isn't the intent more important than the technical wording?

No. In contracts or other formal agreements the content takes precedence over the intent. One example I usually think about when it comes to something like this is Taxes. The government's intent is for you to pay your share and they write this massive tax code to cover just about everything they can think of. But thanks to their wording, there are loopholes that allow for people to keep their money if they put it in the right places.

Something well written thoroughly transfers intent into technical wording, which the author of this bet clearly did not do properly. As a result, we have to debate about something that should be pretty straightforward Cheesy

Quote from: Dalkore on April 02, 2013, 12:00:53 PM

Didn't the people betting that this would not happen, go into it thinking that?

I would imagine so. But I also imagine there are people who looked through the details of the bet and agreed to it based on that instead. Anyway, it should all be taken into context..title and content.

EDIT: I never bet on this, so I have nothing to gain or lose here.

Gator-hex

hero member

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The BFL ASIC never left the BFL Lab therefor it was never "shipped". Wink

Avalons where photographed being unpacked from their shipping containers.

BadBear

legendary

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Quote from: crazyates on April 02, 2013, 12:36:50 PM

Quote from: ShadesOfMarble on April 02, 2013, 08:45:50 AM

This "shipping" by BFL is NOT comparable to what was shipped by Avalon.

You mean when Avalon "shipped", and people went 3 weeks without even seeing a single unit in customer hands? They were shipping like 10 a day, and then taking 4 weeks to clear customs.

Wait, are you using shipped in scare quotes to attack Avalon (who has shipped), in defense of BFL? That's some funny shit man.

crazyates

legendary

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Quote from: ShadesOfMarble on April 02, 2013, 08:45:50 AM

This "shipping" by BFL is NOT comparable to what was shipped by Avalon.

You mean when Avalon "shipped", and people went 3 weeks without even seeing a single unit in customer hands? They were shipping like 10 a day, and then taking 4 weeks to clear customs.

Phinnaeus Gage

legendary

Activity: 1918

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Time Zone in bold: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701

Quote

Betting deadline is past. This statement is awaiting decision.

Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013
This bet concerns the 3 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC products announced here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.966886

For this statement to be false, both of the two following conditions must be met:

• Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

• The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate.

Info
Opening date: Sept. 23, 2012
Bet deadline: March 4, 2013 end of day Eastern Time
Event date: April 1, 2013 end of day Eastern Time
Category: Technology
Total agree bets: 213.82
Total disagree bets: 334.53
Total weighted agree bets: 233413.233
Total weighted disagree bets: 605930.295

Dalkore

legendary

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Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012

Quote from: maqifrnswa on April 01, 2013, 12:50:54 PM

Quote from: Dalkore on April 01, 2013, 12:21:16 PM

Disclosure: I do not have any stake in the outcome of the "BFL Ships ASIC before April 1st" bet.

With that said, from what I have read and the details about the unit not being in the possession of Luke-Jr, it being on the test bench and Luke not being with the unit. Also mentioning that BFL likely violated their own 1/3 shipping plan, shows that this was more of a STUNTto win a bet and not a real shipment.

Verdict: Bet is lost

Sidenote: It is promising to finally see this type of progress from BFL and we should not berate them so harshly when they really gave people information they have been craving. I know they are late and have done many objectionable tactics, but you can't burn them on the stake for this one. It is good to see that information released.

I think the general consensus is that they lost the bet, but people are fighting over what is the reason why the lost the bet. For those that have not actually read the text of the bet:
"For this statement to be false, both of the two following conditions must be met:

• Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

• The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate."

it's true that none of those conditions mention anything about shipping, but the "Before April 1" line stands out. In the absence of a time zone specification, I'd go with UTC. It's up to the BoB to figure out what the timezone is and then sift through the remaining points.

Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013 - This is the title. It is quite specific. If bettors don't accept that this claim was the understanding of the bet, then those people are plainly trying to tell untruths. Even comparisons from the representative of the company (BFL) was to how the shipments of Batch #1 of Avalon were handled. By invoking that, you are implicitly implying that shipping the product to a customer is what the bet is about. What more do you really need? Any disagreement on these facts are just wrong. I am sorry to say it but it is true.

Am I wrong on this?

Isn't the intent more important than the technical wording? Please think about the previous statement before just responding. Didn't the people betting that this would not happen, go into it thinking that? I can't really see how that was not the case. This is my argument.

Disclosure: I did not bet on this claim

Dalkore

legendary

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Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012

Quote from: Korbman on April 02, 2013, 11:04:35 AM

Quote from: Dalkore on April 02, 2013, 10:40:15 AM

Quote from: Korbman on April 02, 2013, 09:25:24 AM

A title doesn't govern a contract, the content does. I could change my contract titles to "Two Monkeys Butt-fucking" and it wouldn't change the fact that I wrote a Notes contract binding me to my investors.

Korbman - Correct. If you read my comments back a couple pages, there is no way to really interpret the facts to fit the content. BFL did not ship before April 1st, 2013. With that said, the progress is looking good and I am happy for their very very very patient customers.

Ah, skimmed over the majority of pages since I hadn't read it in over 24 hours. Are you referring to Page 8?

Yes and I believe one more later comment.

KGambler

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Quote from: coinjedi on April 01, 2013, 10:12:00 PM

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

On the one hand, it's nice to see that you will take your time and consider all arguments before making a decision. On the other hand, this is such an open and shut case that it's a little disconcerting to see that you haven't made a final decision yet. Only a real wannabe thief and welsher would be upset about losing this bet if they had backed BFL. Besides, as you said, its part of your job to make decisions regardless of who will be upset about it. The decision is supposed to be based on facts, reason and logic.

Have you actually received any correspondence from BFL backers claiming to have won the bet? That would be sad and pathetic.

I guess you have two options.

1. pay the obvious winners

2. pay the losers or cancel the bet, thus destroying the credibility your business relies upon

What a dilemma.

(no, I don't have any stake in the outcome of this bet. it does bother me to see people try and weasel out of debts though.)

jwzguy

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Activity: 868

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Quote from: ShadesOfMarble on April 02, 2013, 08:45:50 AM

Who remembers Matthew's 10k BTC bet?
Well, by the "wording" of his bet one can argue that he did nothing wrong, and his scammer tag is not justified.

I agree with your conclusion that they should not be allowed to weasel out of the bet, just like MNW wasn't. But let's not go overboard. MNW's bet was not worded ahead of time to let him out of it, he looked like an utter fool for trying to argue that he had "left himself an out."

Korbman

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Quote from: Dalkore on April 02, 2013, 10:40:15 AM

Quote from: Korbman on April 02, 2013, 09:25:24 AM

A title doesn't govern a contract, the content does. I could change my contract titles to "Two Monkeys Butt-fucking" and it wouldn't change the fact that I wrote a Notes contract binding me to my investors.

Korbman - Correct. If you read my comments back a couple pages, there is no way to really interpret the facts to fit the content. BFL did not ship before April 1st, 2013. With that said, the progress is looking good and I am happy for their very very very patient customers.

Ah, skimmed over the majority of pages since I hadn't read it in over 24 hours. Are you referring to Page 8?

Dalkore

legendary

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Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012

Quote from: Korbman on April 02, 2013, 09:25:24 AM

Quote from: Syke on April 02, 2013, 08:43:52 AM

Quote from: JordanL on April 02, 2013, 01:57:15 AM

Isn't one of the issues that the terms of this specific bet doesn't say anything about shipping or shipped??

The actual title makes it pretty clear:

Quote

Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013

A title doesn't govern a contract, the content does. I could change my contract titles to "Two Monkeys Butt-fucking" and it wouldn't change the fact that I wrote a Notes contract binding me to my investors.

Korbman - Correct. If you read my comments back a couple pages, there is no way to really interpret the facts to fit the content. BFL did not ship before April 1st, 2013. With that said, the progress is looking good and I am happy for their very very very patient customers.

Korbman

legendary

Activity: 1064

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Syke on April 02, 2013, 08:43:52 AM

Quote from: JordanL on April 02, 2013, 01:57:15 AM

Isn't one of the issues that the terms of this specific bet doesn't say anything about shipping or shipped??

The actual title makes it pretty clear:

Quote

Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013

A title doesn't govern a contract, the content does. I could change my contract titles to "Two Monkeys Butt-fucking" and it wouldn't change the fact that I wrote a Notes contract binding me to my investors.

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: Nancarrow on April 02, 2013, 01:08:59 AM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on April 01, 2013, 11:06:07 PM

Quote from: Inspector 2211 on April 01, 2013, 11:01:45 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on April 01, 2013, 10:56:23 PM

Quote

Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

It's visible in the picture.

Is an image a report? I thought a report is something like, "The unit is hashing at..."

Of all the pigfucky things in Luke's OP, that's what you want to quibble over?

I have some respect for Luke and, honestly, that's the best I could do at the time with the knowledge I had on hand. I felt it was the strongest argument I could pull from the post to further my stance.

ShadesOfMarble

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Who remembers Matthew's 10k BTC bet?
Well, by the "wording" of his bet one can argue that he did nothing wrong, and his scammer tag is not justified.

BUT nobody understood the wording the way he did, so he got his scammer tag.

What can be seen in the OP is NOT a finished product, nothing that will be shipped to customers.
When Avalon shipped the first two devices, those were the FINISHED products. The same products which were later received by "ordinary" customers.

This "shipping" by BFL is NOT comparable to what was shipped by Avalon.

If the official bet outcome is that BFL *has* shipped, they could as well soldered some of their FPGAs to a board and call it SC Single. Because, well, power consumption and the fact it's not the product that will be shipped to all customers does not matter?!

People saying BFL has shipped should as well request to remove Matthew's scammer tag then.
(Because both maybe matched the wording but not the intention of the bet.)

Syke

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Quote from: JordanL on April 02, 2013, 01:57:15 AM

Isn't one of the issues that the terms of this specific bet doesn't say anything about shipping or shipped??

The actual title makes it pretty clear:

Quote

Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013

hardcore-fs

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Activity: 196

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Quote from: Nemesis on April 02, 2013, 07:41:22 AM

Quote from: hardcore-fs on April 02, 2013, 02:01:24 AM

sorry a prototype is NOT shipped.

If I produce 10 boards with crap hanging off them and screws holding them to a table , then supply them to developers that does not count as shipping.

If it were, then Tom could also claim he had "shipped" ,since he also had a prototype that Dave saw.

The only thing Dave saw was Tom's tiny dick.

You still believe craps Dave told everyone here?

I'm a naturally trusting person, ask bitmofo.

hardcore-fs

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Activity: 196

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Quote from: rupy on April 02, 2013, 03:04:03 AM

So FPGA's are not that bad after all (If you only look on electricity consumption):

	W/GH
zTEX	40
Avalon	9
BFL	7

On purchase price they are aweful though:

	$/GH
zTEX	1450
Avalon	110
BFL	22

But if you look how many BTC they will give, I think buying FPGA's around christmas 2011 kicks all ASIC's in the butt!

Edit: Just need a timemachine and someone that gives a crap! Wink

You just know it is a sad state of affairs for the gene pool .... when an individual wants a time machine to go buy FPGA's... when in reality he should be buying bit-coins.

Nemesis

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Quote from: hardcore-fs on April 02, 2013, 02:01:24 AM

sorry a prototype is NOT shipped.

If I produce 10 boards with crap hanging off them and screws holding them to a table , then supply them to developers that does not count as shipping.

If it were, then Tom could also claim he had "shipped" ,since he also had a prototype that Dave saw.

The only thing Dave saw was Tom's tiny dick.

You still believe craps Dave told everyone here?

Topic: First BFL ASIC! - page 22. (Read 58307 times)