Gambling Streamers. Are they promoting fun or fueling addiction?

Dewi Aries

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Quote from: Fredomago on November 18, 2024, 12:54:57 PM

Quote from: Dewi Aries on November 18, 2024, 07:16:24 AM

Yes, that's right, not only does it trigger an increase in adrenaline but it also triggers an increase in hope and belief that they will be able to achieve a big win as they see from what the streamers produce in the show which indirectly they hope that the amount of big wins will be able to change their lives for the better financially.

On the other hand, I also agree that what is done and shown by the streamers really does influence the perspective and way of thinking of gamblers in viewing gambling, many of them eventually get lost in a wrong understanding and of course as we know about how dangerous it is and what bad potential will befall a gambler when they already have the wrong perspective on gambling, of course over time without realizing it they will be trapped in a cycle of addiction where when they win they will be greedy and when they lose they will be even more curious.

The reason why many followers loses their money as they are hoping that they can also have that same success that streamers are sharing, they are being blind by the reality that its all for the sole purpose of advertisement and just to make sure that they'll be able to reached those followers who also have that same passion with gambling, streamers are sharing those kinds of activities to earn money directly from the casinos or indirectly by form of ads and referrals.

Yes, as I said before, misunderstanding is the biggest trigger for various disasters that will befall gamblers who come because they are interested in gambling after they see the shows made by streamers, on the other hand, as we know, everyone likes money and when there is a party that shows something that looks tempting, then of course there will be at least many people who try the same thing with high hopes and beliefs.

On the other hand, I think being rational and maintaining common sense can help someone avoid something that is misleading, because by being rational, I think you will know what looks reasonable and what looks far from realistic, so for this problem it depends on how each person responds to everything they find.

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Quote from: ethereumhunter on Today at 05:07:31 AM

Quote from: n0ne on November 18, 2024, 06:51:47 PM

Gambling platforms used to have different promotional tactics. One among those is the usage of streamers, which is really bad. They don't care about the money, and they keep on spending. This isn't possible with a common man, but it triggers a common man to give it a try, risking the amount he has earned for long. With gambling to be on the safer side, one should not spend more than 1% of his household earnings, but the reality is different, as people easily get triggered soon after they lose. One needs to be careful while gambling, know his limits, and shouldn't get misled by streamers, as we need to make ourselves responsible.

That is because gambling can tempt people easily so that makes them keep playing gambling without stop. Gambling streamers promote the casino and makes people realize that they have the same opportunities to win the games. But people doesn't realize that if they can not control themselves, they will just lose their money and that amount will be bigger than they imagine. People doesn't need to follow what other people and streamers to because they have their own reason that will different than us. So that is why we must know how much money we can use to playing gambling and strictly to our rules by limiting the money and time to gambling.

What they don't realize is the risk are twice compared to the chance that they might win, aside from getting greedy your adrenaline keeps adding to the pressure where instead of stopping gambler tends to push for more, as they think they'll be able to acheive what the streamers shows from their videos, those kind of hope are being installed inside a gamblers mindset thinking that they've got that equal opportunities where the chance is too small,

unlike with streamers which most of the time are being played or helped by the casino owners to shows that they keep on winning and there's a patterns that they use to bring the bacon on thier wallets.

Those tricks are being neglect by those gamblers who mostly idolize streamers that kind of hope keeps pumping inside that leads them to lose a lot.

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Quote from: n0ne on November 18, 2024, 06:51:47 PM

Gambling platforms used to have different promotional tactics. One among those is the usage of streamers, which is really bad. They don't care about the money, and they keep on spending. This isn't possible with a common man, but it triggers a common man to give it a try, risking the amount he has earned for long. With gambling to be on the safer side, one should not spend more than 1% of his household earnings, but the reality is different, as people easily get triggered soon after they lose. One needs to be careful while gambling, know his limits, and shouldn't get misled by streamers, as we need to make ourselves responsible.

That is because gambling can tempt people easily so that makes them keep playing gambling without stop. Gambling streamers promote the casino and makes people realize that they have the same opportunities to win the games. But people doesn't realize that if they can not control themselves, they will just lose their money and that amount will be bigger than they imagine. People doesn't need to follow what other people and streamers to because they have their own reason that will different than us. So that is why we must know how much money we can use to playing gambling and strictly to our rules by limiting the money and time to gambling.

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Quote from: n0ne on November 18, 2024, 06:51:47 PM

Gambling platforms used to have different promotional tactics. One among those is the usage of streamers, which is really bad. They don't care about the money, and they keep on spending. This isn't possible with a common man, but it triggers a common man to give it a try, risking the amount he has earned for long. With gambling to be on the safer side, one should not spend more than 1% of his household earnings, but the reality is different, as people easily get triggered soon after they lose. One needs to be careful while gambling, know his limits, and shouldn't get misled by streamers, as we need to make ourselves responsible.

Indeed, now one of the most effective ways to develop or promote a business is of course by utilizing the current development of the internet, with the current reality that almost everyone spends their time involving the internet and social media, of course this is an opportunity for casinos to develop their business or business. By working together perhaps with other people who have a good reputation or popularity will increase their income even though they must have previously spent money in advance to make advertisements or work with streamers with the aim of promoting their casino.

In my opinion, the streamer himself does not force everyone to gamble or bet, but the desire from ourselves is what makes us gamble or bet when we see this streamer succeed in getting a tempting victory, if we can restrain ourselves then there will be no desire to try our luck by betting, just by looking at it is enough.

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Gambling platforms used to have different promotional tactics. One among those is the usage of streamers, which is really bad. They don't care about the money, and they keep on spending. This isn't possible with a common man, but it triggers a common man to give it a try, risking the amount he has earned for long. With gambling to be on the safer side, one should not spend more than 1% of his household earnings, but the reality is different, as people easily get triggered soon after they lose. One needs to be careful while gambling, know his limits, and shouldn't get misled by streamers, as we need to make ourselves responsible.

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Quote from: Kavelj22 on November 16, 2024, 09:48:12 AM

Quote from: boyptc on November 15, 2024, 06:15:36 PM

I agree.

This hits more the younger generation. And those that have become addicted at their mid-age or adults and professionals, you ask them and the majority of them have became a gambler once then when they were younger.

But then when they grew older and have the occupation and money, that's how they're enjoying things that they cannot afford before. As for these younger generation, they've got a lot of opportunities nowadays so they can be hook for as long as they can and easily without having that much to be worried with money.

The influence for decision making is easier on them because they have younger minds and lesser experience in life and gambling.

It is not only the youth that can be affected, users of different ages can be excited to try gambling without having any previous experience in placing bets. It is true that younger people are more receptive to new experiences without considering all the consequences, but we should always remember that a large percentage of video viewers do not have the full capacity to deal with different content online.

Casinos contract with streamers to publish promotional content for them on streaming platforms, so streamers or casinos cannot be blamed as long as there are platforms that allow such content to be published.

You're right, every age can be affected by the streamers or influencers when they're being loved by their own viewers.

So, the risk that they're telling to everyone who watches will be ignored for as long as they don't care about that because the fans like to follow wherever their idol is going.

They are there to attract and whoever does start to gamble because of them cannot be blamed, it's true.

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Quote from: taufik123 on November 18, 2024, 03:19:57 AM

That is a marketing necessity that needs to be done, and the goal is indeed to attract many people to enter and register at the casino.
And some casinos also offer bonuses for the first deposit made.

Most of the casinos offer bonuses for the very first deposits. And all of them are very attractive that makes the new comers think that they'll have it on an instant. There's always a condition that needs to be met and it depends on what the casino is asking for. I've seen a lot of streamers that are also sponsored by stake and they're all having fun. They seem not to be sponsored because they all do it naturally or that's just how they stream at all. Even if they always mention that they're sponsored by stake or any other casinos, the viewers aren't going away from them but keeps on watching them for entertainment.

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Quote from: Dewi Aries on November 18, 2024, 07:16:24 AM

Quote from: Fredomago on November 17, 2024, 01:29:24 PM

Quote from: Dewi Aries on November 17, 2024, 01:09:26 PM

Of course I think it is a definite possibility for someone to become addicted when their intention and purpose in gambling is to seek or pursue winning money, in the end it is clear that consciously or unconsciously their behavior towards gambling will definitely lead them to addiction where the worst point is when one day they experience a really significant downturn in their lives, in this case yes streamers can really trigger various downturns by showing something that looks tempting which triggers a change in perspective in a wrong direction that makes people who watch become so sure that they can also get victory like the streamers have managed to achieve. Therefore on the other hand this is a lesson for us that in life we must always be able to use common sense and a rational perspective every time we find new things in life so that we know about what and how the activities we are facing are actually.

Indeed, when a gambler starts to aim to win more money the adrenaline inside them increase that's added up for them take longer time and more money to spend for thier gambling activities, and yes, it triggers addiction inside them as they wanted to increae their potential earnings the way they see those streamers did.

That kind of influenced affects those people who loves following someone's else journey not realizing that everything they've witness are all just for the sake of advertising.

Yes, that's right, not only does it trigger an increase in adrenaline but it also triggers an increase in hope and belief that they will be able to achieve a big win as they see from what the streamers produce in the show which indirectly they hope that the amount of big wins will be able to change their lives for the better financially.

On the other hand, I also agree that what is done and shown by the streamers really does influence the perspective and way of thinking of gamblers in viewing gambling, many of them eventually get lost in a wrong understanding and of course as we know about how dangerous it is and what bad potential will befall a gambler when they already have the wrong perspective on gambling, of course over time without realizing it they will be trapped in a cycle of addiction where when they win they will be greedy and when they lose they will be even more curious.

The reason why many followers loses their money as they are hoping that they can also have that same success that streamers are sharing, they are being blind by the reality that its all for the sole purpose of advertisement and just to make sure that they'll be able to reached those followers who also have that same passion with gambling, streamers are sharing those kinds of activities to earn money directly from the casinos or indirectly by form of ads and referrals.

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Quote from: I_Anime on November 18, 2024, 06:08:20 AM

Quote from: Nrcewker on November 17, 2024, 10:56:45 PM

Quote from: rachael9385 on November 16, 2024, 09:31:06 AM

Gambling streamers are doing more of fueling addiction than promoting fun.

Their task is to increase addiction only. They are paid by the casino owners to do livestreams and show potential winning capabilities. This influences the common people that, if the streamers are winning, then why can’t they win? But the sad reality is that streamers use dummy money to place the bet and streams. We can’t do anything about it. What we can do is avoid these types of streamers and stop giving them views and subscribers.

Amd most folks don't care if it's dummy money or real , they still get their addiction feed up because of seeing wins via the internet from streamers, and the funny thing is that after all the losses you won't have anyone to blame but yourself, because you where the one that fell for it and go into gambling with the wrong mindset. Gambling is meant for fun not to get rich quick or to make easy money there's nothing like easy money, because gambling still can also get you rekt.

We do know that there those people who do admit their mistakes and there are ones who do blame out someone because of the things that they are really currently experiencing those unfortunate situations. Bear in mind that these influencers or streamers are really just that doing their job on which they do make money out of it. As for someone who do look or sees out those streams are neither being hooked up or not. There are those who do end up on being addicted and there are ones haven’t been affected at all, as long they do treat up gambling for the sake of entertainment.

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Quote from: Fredomago on November 17, 2024, 01:29:24 PM

Quote from: Dewi Aries on November 17, 2024, 01:09:26 PM

Of course I think it is a definite possibility for someone to become addicted when their intention and purpose in gambling is to seek or pursue winning money, in the end it is clear that consciously or unconsciously their behavior towards gambling will definitely lead them to addiction where the worst point is when one day they experience a really significant downturn in their lives, in this case yes streamers can really trigger various downturns by showing something that looks tempting which triggers a change in perspective in a wrong direction that makes people who watch become so sure that they can also get victory like the streamers have managed to achieve. Therefore on the other hand this is a lesson for us that in life we must always be able to use common sense and a rational perspective every time we find new things in life so that we know about what and how the activities we are facing are actually.

Indeed, when a gambler starts to aim to win more money the adrenaline inside them increase that's added up for them take longer time and more money to spend for thier gambling activities, and yes, it triggers addiction inside them as they wanted to increae their potential earnings the way they see those streamers did.

That kind of influenced affects those people who loves following someone's else journey not realizing that everything they've witness are all just for the sake of advertising.

Yes, that's right, not only does it trigger an increase in adrenaline but it also triggers an increase in hope and belief that they will be able to achieve a big win as they see from what the streamers produce in the show which indirectly they hope that the amount of big wins will be able to change their lives for the better financially.

On the other hand, I also agree that what is done and shown by the streamers really does influence the perspective and way of thinking of gamblers in viewing gambling, many of them eventually get lost in a wrong understanding and of course as we know about how dangerous it is and what bad potential will befall a gambler when they already have the wrong perspective on gambling, of course over time without realizing it they will be trapped in a cycle of addiction where when they win they will be greedy and when they lose they will be even more curious.

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Quote from: Akbarkoe on November 18, 2024, 02:23:19 AM

Those who say that gambling is about fun and entertainment, are actually just using an alibi as a form of defense for their carelessness in gambling. And although "yes" it is about fun and entertainment, only a few people are able to enjoy gambling as a place to seek pleasure and entertainment, most of them gamble to make a profit.

Continuing to gamble in the hope of covering the losses that have been experienced is a carelessness that is often done by gamblers. And not because they don't know the limits, but the big losses they experience have encouraged them to continue gambling even more. And this is where we need to appreciate every limit that we have made when we want to gamble, because if not, we will continue to experience even more losses.

Streamers broadcast the gambling they do just to attract people to gamble again and visit the gambling site that they promote, but some stupid people think that it is real, so in the end they continue to gamble in the hope of getting the same victory as the streamers.

I dont gamble for profit. For me gambling = paying for entertainment. Like going to a movie or bowling. I dont pay for movie ticket or bowling to earn. I can explain why I have such vision on gambling. Because I lose more than win, and by job brings me enough. With gambling, I am used to lose, as well I am used to pay for service. And even if I become short on money, I have few skills and options to earn besides earning on a regular job.

As to streamers, they do it for fun, and for their own fun. However they broadcast it to people not because they want to get more people addicted to gambling, but because streaming is fun for them, and they like popularity, to be in front of camera, to be discussed by others.

But becoming addicted to gambling, that is persons own wish. A person can get addicted after first ever game of gambling, or by playing on his own without even watching streams. Gambling streams are just alive pictures. Same as we see people smoke in movie or see cigarette ads, but we dont get addicted to smoking just by watching, nor even have a strong wish to try.

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Quote from: Nrcewker on November 17, 2024, 10:56:45 PM

Quote from: rachael9385 on November 16, 2024, 09:31:06 AM

Gambling streamers are doing more of fueling addiction than promoting fun.

Their task is to increase addiction only. They are paid by the casino owners to do livestreams and show potential winning capabilities. This influences the common people that, if the streamers are winning, then why can’t they win? But the sad reality is that streamers use dummy money to place the bet and streams. We can’t do anything about it. What we can do is avoid these types of streamers and stop giving them views and subscribers.

Amd most folks don't care if it's dummy money or real , they still get their addiction feed up because of seeing wins via the internet from streamers, and the funny thing is that after all the losses you won't have anyone to blame but yourself, because you where the one that fell for it and go into gambling with the wrong mindset. Gambling is meant for fun not to get rich quick or to make easy money there's nothing like easy money, because gambling still can also get you rekt.

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Quote from: Bitinity on November 18, 2024, 01:49:03 AM

-snip-
Fine or not is about our own responsibility on how to deal with what they follow and watch. Some followers can be attracted to do the same as what the streamers do when they watch the streamer win big. Money can attract many people easily even it can make people lose their logic so we have to educate ourselves about it to avoid the possible negative effect of what we watch.

You need to be aware of yourself and don't be too FOMO with the successes made by others, especially since the success is still unclear.
Online Casino streamers who get big wins have indeed been arranged in such a way, using a real account, but of course the system has been adjusted by the casino because the streamer is a player who will continue to win.

That is a marketing necessity that needs to be done, and the goal is indeed to attract many people to enter and register at the casino.
And some casinos also offer bonuses for the first deposit made.

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Quote from: Frankolala on November 18, 2024, 02:04:42 AM

Quote from: AmoreJaz on November 17, 2024, 04:31:18 PM

.................

Gambling is the opposite of what most people think it is, because majority of gamblers are doing it for profit sake, unknown to them that it is casino that will take from them, because you cannot win the house edge. Blindly, they continue gambling over and over again hoping that the next game will be a big win, but unfortunately they get more losses. These set of people that puts all their lives and hope in gambling to be life changer for them are the ones that's making the society think that gambling is bad and evil, because in the long run if they don't change their orientation that they cannot make profit from gambling and stop chasing their losses, their financial situation will be in a big mess, making them to look tattered and frustrated.

Those who say that gambling is about fun and entertainment, are actually just using an alibi as a form of defense for their carelessness in gambling. And although "yes" it is about fun and entertainment, only a few people are able to enjoy gambling as a place to seek pleasure and entertainment, most of them gamble to make a profit.

Continuing to gamble in the hope of covering the losses that have been experienced is a carelessness that is often done by gamblers. And not because they don't know the limits, but the big losses they experience have encouraged them to continue gambling even more. And this is where we need to appreciate every limit that we have made when we want to gamble, because if not, we will continue to experience even more losses.

Streamers broadcast the gambling they do just to attract people to gamble again and visit the gambling site that they promote, but some stupid people think that it is real, so in the end they continue to gamble in the hope of getting the same victory as the streamers.

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Quote from: AmoreJaz on November 17, 2024, 04:31:18 PM

Quote from: I_Anime on November 16, 2024, 05:00:24 PM

Quote from: rachael9385 on November 16, 2024, 09:31:06 AM

Gambling streamers are doing more of fueling addiction than promoting fun. The internet is flooded by young people and they are the ones that are more vulnerable to this addiction. If a streamer does a live video showing how he's making millions of dollars from a casino game even if those wins are probably fake, a lot of young people would be interested and this is how they can get lured into this. Gambling streamers are into what they are doing basically to promote their page, it's also an advertisement for the casinos that they are using, everything they do is all about making money.

And that's why you will see young folks gambling even when their guidance ain't doing it , because of what he encountered on the internet via social medias , because most folks like to showcase wins in there social handle just to lure people to gambling and some mainly endup ruining their lives.

Because they where no one to tell them the disadvantages of gambling but rather they where been filled with the advantages alone (e.g how folks made millions by hitting the jackpot). So which Made them to approach gambling the wrong way and may eventually endup been an addict.

Let us admit the fact that most lucrative winnings that you can find over the net are questionable. However, people are being attracted to the notion that gambling may be their way out of poverty, debt or any financial troubles. And in the process, they will soon find out that they are only digging themselves into more inconveniences. This may lead to stress, anxiety or financial pressure that would be hard to get out of.

Gambling is the opposite of what most people think it is, because majority of gamblers are doing it for profit sake, unknown to them that it is casino that will take from them, because you cannot win the house edge. Blindly, they continue gambling over and over again hoping that the next game will be a big win, but unfortunately they get more losses. These set of people that puts all their lives and hope in gambling to be life changer for them are the ones that's making the society think that gambling is bad and evil, because in the long run if they don't change their orientation that they cannot make profit from gambling and stop chasing their losses, their financial situation will be in a big mess, making them to look tattered and frustrated.

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We cant generalize because every streamer must have their own intention or main reason of doing it. Some streamers may do gambling streams merely because they are being paid although basically they do not like gambling at all while some other streamers may do it because both they do like gambling and they are also taking an advantage from the casinos who paid them. This 2nd type of streamers maybe the one that can be said as fueling their addiction because they do love gambling as well and on the other side they get more funds from the partnership with the casino.

Quote from: GreatArkansas on October 21, 2024, 06:31:29 PM

But a lot of people are saying that they are using fake accounts, like a testnet account with fake balance inside so they can use it to play and live it, how true is this?

I cant say so because I do not know, but if I have to guess, most streamers use real account and real money but the money is not fully withdrawable because usually the money is credited by the casino in order to make the streamer able to play.

Quote from: GreatArkansas on October 21, 2024, 06:31:29 PM

Another thing I'm concerned about is their audience because for sure, most of their followers will see their stream and some of them are minor, is this also fine?

Fine or not is about our own responsibility on how to deal with what they follow and watch. Some followers can be attracted to do the same as what the streamers do when they watch the streamer win big. Money can attract many people easily even it can make people lose their logic so we have to educate ourselves about it to avoid the possible negative effect of what we watch.

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Quote from: rachael9385 on November 16, 2024, 09:31:06 AM

Gambling streamers are doing more of fueling addiction than promoting fun.

Their task is to increase addiction only. They are paid by the casino owners to do livestreams and show potential winning capabilities. This influences the common people that, if the streamers are winning, then why can’t they win? But the sad reality is that streamers use dummy money to place the bet and streams. We can’t do anything about it. What we can do is avoid these types of streamers and stop giving them views and subscribers.

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Quote from: I_Anime on November 17, 2024, 08:10:26 PM

Quote from: AmoreJaz on November 17, 2024, 04:31:18 PM

Let us admit the fact that most lucrative winnings that you can find over the net are questionable. However, people are being attracted to the notion that gambling may be their way out of poverty, debt or any financial troubles. And in the process, they will soon find out that they are only digging themselves into more inconveniences. This may lead to stress, anxiety or financial pressure that would be hard to get out of.

Yeah , and the only people that have managed to get their lives changed by gambtare those that summon the courage to stop after hitting the huge win , because some folks always get greedy and always want more so they will keep gambling and eventually lose everything while those that where to stop and use the money to start up something that will sustain his self and his family , the reason I don't vibe most streamers is that they always plant the wrong mindset , making folks to gambling in a harmful way .

The role of gambling streamers is usually to promote gambling and one of the attractions of them is to spread stories about people who managed to win large sums and change their lives, it is undeniable that there are some people who can change their lives in gambling but that it very rare, even if there are, of course we do not know how much money they have spent so far in gambling, but apart from those who are successful, the fact is that people who are stuck in a cycle of loss by worsening their financial and emotional situation are even more numerous today.

I think gambling is not a reliable solution to our financial problems, because relying on luck to get out of financial difficulties can be very dangerous.

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Quote from: I_Anime on November 17, 2024, 08:10:26 PM

Quote from: AmoreJaz on November 17, 2024, 04:31:18 PM

Let us admit the fact that most lucrative winnings that you can find over the net are questionable. However, people are being attracted to the notion that gambling may be their way out of poverty, debt or any financial troubles. And in the process, they will soon find out that they are only digging themselves into more inconveniences. This may lead to stress, anxiety or financial pressure that would be hard to get out of.

Yeah , and the only people that have managed to get their lives changed by gambtare those that summon the courage to stop after hitting the huge win , because some folks always get greedy and always want more so they will keep gambling and eventually lose everything while those that where to stop and use the money to start up something that will sustain his self and his family , the reason I don't vibe most streamers is that they always plant the wrong mindset , making folks to gambling in a harmful way .

I admit that when you have managed to get a big win in gambling it is difficult to get out, but what makes it difficult is our own thoughts that still want to win again and again, I myself experienced this when I once got a big win that made me happy and confused about whether to continue or stop, sometimes I lost control of myself so that what I did was continue it again by increasing the amount of the bet to be bigger hoping that the win that would happen would be even bigger, but inevitably defeat is something that cannot be avoided and what happens is losing everything that has been obtained makes me get a lesson to take advantage of the opportunities that have occurred.

I am sure everyone who has ever gambled must have experienced something like this where they find it difficult to stop gambling when they have managed to get a big win, and in my opinion that is a natural thing, but when you have experienced it, you should be able to learn from the incident.

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Quote from: I_Anime on November 17, 2024, 08:10:26 PM

Quote from: AmoreJaz on November 17, 2024, 04:31:18 PM

Let us admit the fact that most lucrative winnings that you can find over the net are questionable. However, people are being attracted to the notion that gambling may be their way out of poverty, debt or any financial troubles. And in the process, they will soon find out that they are only digging themselves into more inconveniences. This may lead to stress, anxiety or financial pressure that would be hard to get out of.

Yeah , and the only people that have managed to get their lives changed by gambtare those that summon the courage to stop after hitting the huge win , because some folks always get greedy and always want more so they will keep gambling and eventually lose everything while those that where to stop and use the money to start up something that will sustain his self and his family , the reason I don't vibe most streamers is that they always plant the wrong mindset , making folks to gambling in a harmful way .

Well, streamers are only either doing what they are paid to do, or doing what they think will put money in their pocket,it's as simply as that but unfortunately and often times, many of us usually don't understand or we simply turn a blind eye.

Every gambler watching a streamer should know that they themselves have no special way they play their own games that needed learning from, they are simply hustling for their own money and that's all that matters to them, and like I will always say, some of this big wins we see happen live while the streamer is on air and gambling is sometimes arranged, this is why we must never take any of such things that happen live on streams serious.

Topic: Gambling Streamers. Are they promoting fun or fueling addiction? (Read 2366 times)