[Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016] - page 22.

drasted

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Quote from: RoadStress on October 21, 2014, 02:20:08 PM

Quote from: drasted on October 20, 2014, 11:35:59 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on October 20, 2014, 09:12:07 PM

nobody has reported getting any unit up to this point (review units don't count).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9273242

He is a reseller, not a customer.

Resellers are customers. Why wouldn't you consider them to be?
"Customer: a person who buys goods or services from a shop or business."
What they do with the goods after receiving it makes no difference. They're still shipped all the same whether they're keeping it or selling it to other people.

Pentax

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Quote from: dogie on October 21, 2014, 12:03:29 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on October 20, 2014, 11:53:17 PM

Quote from: dogie on October 20, 2014, 09:16:25 PM

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

BTCGarden

- No delays
- No problem with RMAs/partial refunds.
- Great customer support which makes sure customers do not feel ripped off.
- MAY have told a lie about their DOA %.

Ethics: 5/10

You're right in some respects, the ethics category doesn't have much depth. The problem is the more criteria / sub-criteria I add, the more I'll be accused of being biased or gaming the system somehow. By leaving it more rigid it removes that ability for any one person [me] to have too much control - the criteria is the criteria and everything has to fit into them.

The way you're wrong though is BTCGarden: 73, Black Arrow: 35. Not everything fits into the ethics category.

True. There is a lot of weight placed on whether or not a company is running a mine. We don't know that Black Arrow isn't. Although there's no proof, they initially claimed their data center was ready to go online to begin their cloudhashing service and then some time later claimed they couldn't be mining because their data center wasn't ready. I obviously know they can't be dinged for something that is unproven but it remains unclear why they haven't delivered a larger number of X-3's and given their overall ethics that I've seen, if they can be, they are.

I do wonder where the assumption that Black Arrow is large comes from. They don't seem to be building much of anything themselves, have contracted out assembly and there is no clear indication of a large number of employees. So, we've got what, a handful of engineers (maybe) and a few customer service personnel (again, maybe) and whoever it is that's running this mess in terms of "management".

RoadStress

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Quote from: drasted on October 20, 2014, 11:35:59 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on October 20, 2014, 09:12:07 PM

nobody has reported getting any unit up to this point (review units don't count).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9273242

He is a reseller, not a customer.

dogie

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Quote from: Meizirkki on October 21, 2014, 11:55:13 AM

The changelog says KnC quality went from 6 to 1 but you forgot to modify that part in the actual list.

Fixed

Meizirkki

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KnC's score actually went up after the update... Cheesy

The changelog says KnC quality went from 6 to 1 but you forgot to modify that part in the actual list.

dogie

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Quote from: ElGrandJefe on October 21, 2014, 09:24:45 AM

It's your ballgame, Dogie, but as someone who ordered both BFL 65 nm (then converted to 28 nm and ultimately refunded last April) and a few X-1s from BA, BA's ethics are definitely worse in my eyes. Regardless of BFL's motivation - I suspect it was because of the pending class-action lawsuit, the FTC breathing down their necks, or both - they were at least issuing refunds. Although they made their customers wait far too long for them.

In contrast, BA promised refunds to many customers in April and May, then stonewalled for months until finally announcing that there would be no refunds.

Both companies lied continuously and constantly about their engineering progress and shipping dates. Both companies were also founded by convicted criminals.

You're one of the lucky ones who got out with no damage then, BFL for swathes of time were NOT honouring refunds, even if they said they were publicly.

ElGrandJefe

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It's your ballgame, Dogie, but as someone who ordered both BFL 65 nm (then converted to 28 nm and ultimately refunded last April) and a few X-1s from BA, BA's ethics are definitely worse in my eyes. Regardless of BFL's motivation - I suspect it was because of the pending class-action lawsuit, the FTC breathing down their necks, or both - they were at least issuing refunds. Although they made their customers wait far too long for them.

In contrast, BA promised refunds to many customers in April and May, then stonewalled for months until finally announcing that there would be no refunds.

Both companies lied continuously and constantly about their engineering progress and shipping dates. Both companies were also founded by convicted criminals.

dogie

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Quote from: jjdub7 on October 21, 2014, 02:24:05 AM

Dogie - However, shouldn't there be a distinction between manufacturers who mine on their own private pools (e.g. KNCminer or BFL with Eclipse MC) and those who distribute their hashrate among the public pools? Mining in the public pools creates a (perhaps unintentional but still significant) positive externality to benefit all miners by lowering the variance of payouts and reducing their risk. Can you refine the ethics rubric on your rating scale to reflect this distinction (something like a -1)? Or do you not consider it to be a differentiating factor? It would help get the rubric more granular...

It would be too hard to tell, as with FF which is why I removed it from every company. Its really not worth talking about 1 or two points either, as its a rating out of 100.

jjdub7

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Woof!

Quote from: dogie on July 26, 2014, 10:36:46 PM

Ethics?
All companies start with 10 points, and lose points for various infractions. The key is as follows:
   F = Operates own mining farm = -2
   FF = Operates own large mining farm = -4
   P = Evidence of premining on preordered equipment = -2
   BFL = BFL'ing = -9
   B = Bankrupt = -9
   O = Other generic unethical behaviour = -5

(included to echo other sentiments)

This scale looks good for a constantly-evolving/improving draft. Consider another data point re: mining for profit...

Quote from: dogie on October 21, 2014, 12:03:29 AM

Quote from: jimmothy on October 20, 2014, 11:53:17 PM

Quote from: dogie on October 20, 2014, 09:16:25 PM

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

BTCGarden

- No delays
- No problem with RMAs/partial refunds.
- Great customer support which makes sure customers do not feel ripped off.
- MAY have told a lie about their DOA %.

Ethics: 5/10

You're right in some respects, the ethics category doesn't have much depth. The problem is the more criteria / sub-criteria I add, the more I'll be accused of being biased or gaming the system somehow. By leaving it more rigid it removes that ability for any one person [me] to have too much control - the criteria is the criteria and everything has to fit into them.

The way you're wrong though is BTCGarden: 73, Black Arrow: 35. Not everything fits into the ethics category.

With regard to ASICMINER, consider that the company is publicly traded and that current operations related to mining power are at the very least dispersed and therefore beneficial to all miners on public pools.

Quote from: jjdub7 on October 20, 2014, 09:10:01 PM

Quote from: Blazed on October 20, 2014, 09:00:53 PM

Quote from: jjdub7 on October 20, 2014, 07:46:19 PM

Quote from: dogie on October 20, 2014, 05:08:46 PM

This company's rating has been updated in the Manufacturer Trustworthiness thread.

[This message won't be monitored, discuss your concerns in the thread.]

Dogie, I see that you won't be monitoring this, but I'll ask anyway in case you check back and deem it worth a response. What would AM have to do in the coming rating cycle to improve back into the 90-95 ratings? Where were the ratings points lost, and why does AM have a 4/10 for ethics?

Just scroll down and read the change log...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5035170

Thanks. Must've just scrolled right over it without seeing. The ethics ratings make sense, I guess...no way to know if they're mining with customers' hardware. No such thing as being too careful after BFL.

... ->

Dogie - However, shouldn't there be a distinction between manufacturers who mine on their own private pools (e.g. KNCminer or BFL with Eclipse MC) and those who distribute their hashrate among the public pools? Mining in the public pools creates a (perhaps unintentional but still significant) positive externality to benefit all miners by lowering the variance of payouts and reducing their risk. Can you refine the ethics rubric on your rating scale to reflect this distinction (something like a -1)? Or do you not consider it to be a differentiating factor? It would help get the rubric more granular...

thx. good guide. should help newbs feel a little safer jumping into mining. I don't think you can ever really "get" bitcoin without at least trying to mine it and understand the processes behind the blockchain. keep up the good work man.

-dub

(P.S. still got my r-boxes running)

MrTeal

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Quote from: jimmothy on October 20, 2014, 11:53:17 PM

Quote from: dogie on October 20, 2014, 09:16:25 PM

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

Don't forget shipping power supplies that tend to light on fire, which in and of itself isn't necessarily an ethics issue. After that though...
1. Issue a recall, telling people to stop using the dangerous hardware and that they will be contacted about an RMA.
2. Wait one month.
3. Issue a big "Just Kidding" about the recall, tell customers that you'll only replace PSUs that have already gone roman candle on them. Unless there's mechanical damage as well, of course, in which case you'll be charged extra. Until then, just keep a fire extinguisher handy.

dogie

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Quote from: jimmothy on October 20, 2014, 11:53:17 PM

Quote from: dogie on October 20, 2014, 09:16:25 PM

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

BTCGarden

- No delays
- No problem with RMAs/partial refunds.
- Great customer support which makes sure customers do not feel ripped off.
- MAY have told a lie about their DOA %.

Ethics: 5/10

You're right in some respects, the ethics category doesn't have much depth. The problem is the more criteria / sub-criteria I add, the more I'll be accused of being biased or gaming the system somehow. By leaving it more rigid it removes that ability for any one person [me] to have too much control - the criteria is the criteria and everything has to fit into them.

The way you're wrong though is BTCGarden: 73, Black Arrow: 35. Not everything fits into the ethics category.

jimmothy

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Quote from: dogie on October 20, 2014, 09:16:25 PM

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

Blackarrow

- Repeatedly lied about shipping dates.
- Only 30% of hardware shipped 6 months late.
- Promised to be the best $/gh but decided screw it that would cost money.
- Several customers blackmailed/doxed by the company
- Shipping hardware to resellers before customers who ordered earlier
- Denied refunds even though they were promised after they began shipping.
- Compensation completely garbage for the huge delays.
- Heavy censorship of their thread/forum.
- Nearly every customer left feeling ripped off.

Ethics: 5/10

BTCGarden

- No delays
- No problem with RMAs/partial refunds.
- Great customer support which makes sure customers do not feel ripped off.
- MAY have told a lie about their DOA %.

Ethics: 5/10

drasted

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Quote from: RoadStress on October 20, 2014, 09:12:07 PM

nobody has reported getting any unit up to this point (review units don't count).

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9273242

dogie

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Quote from: DebitMe on October 20, 2014, 08:06:51 PM

Could you explain what BFL'ing is as far as ethics? I cannot find anything where BFL has been worse than BA and yet they still have an ethics rating. Just some clarification here would be helpful.

Its to represent that what they pulled with the 65nm delays, mis-selling, making potentially false/misleading claims, potentially misleading statements about tapeout etc, targeting new buyers with insanely old hardware and the repeated 'tradeups' with the second generation delays. Simply put, no other company has come close to what BFL did over the last 18-24 months - as highlighted by the FTC taking over the company. Blackarrow is getting close, but they're not at that level yet and still have an opportunity to fix it.

RoadStress

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Quote from: jimmothy on October 20, 2014, 09:01:14 PM

SP35/31/20 are all preorders because they use an untested chip and the specs are estimations.

It's the same chip as in SP30 so it can't be worse. Only better, but I got it now.

Quote from: dogie on October 20, 2014, 09:12:03 PM

Quote from: jimmothy on October 20, 2014, 09:01:14 PM

The SP10 was BTO because they built/tested a prototype and verified the specs before taking orders.

I'd disagree on this point in relation to the guide. The SP10 was using known chips, but it was sold with longer lead times than typical batch and preorders for future 'batches' far into the future. Those preorders are what was able to fund the next gen chip orders. It was sort of BTO, but BTO too far into the future to be considered batch.

Lol at "far into the future". All SP10s were sold with delivery in maximum 3 weeks. Even less from time to time. Care to share what was the lead time for the AM Prisma miners? I think it's over 2 weeks now and nobody has reported getting any unit up to this point (review units don't count).

dogie

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Quote from: jimmothy on October 20, 2014, 09:01:14 PM

The SP10 was BTO because they built/tested a prototype and verified the specs before taking orders.

I'd disagree on this point in relation to the guide. The SP10 was using known chips, but it was sold with longer lead times than typical batch and preorders for future 'batches' far into the future. Those preorders are what was able to fund the next gen chip orders. It was sort of BTO, but BTO too far into the future to be considered batch.

dogie

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Quote from: RoadStress on October 20, 2014, 07:55:58 PM

Since August there were no pre-orders. Only batch products with a lead time. We are past half October. That's over 2 months since the SP30s exist on the market. Am I wrong? Even now you can order the SP35 Novermber Batch 1. Where is the pre-order?

You can't make that an arbitrary cutoff when all those September and October SP35s were funded off the back of 1000s of preorders. ST's business model requires preorders and it will until they raise more cash or make more money.

jimmothy

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Quote from: RoadStress on October 20, 2014, 08:44:18 PM

Now let's keep this thread on topic and tell me what's the difference between AM's pre-orders and SP-Tech's ones and if they should be on par or not in dogie's guide.

It's been spelled out for you several times already, I'm not sure anyone can simplify it further.

Please just try to learn the difference between built-to-order and preorders.

The SP10 was BTO because they built/tested a prototype and verified the specs before taking orders.

The AM Prisma is also BTO because they built/tested a prototype before taking orders.

SP35/31/20 are all preorders because they use an untested chip and the specs are estimations.

RoadStress

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Quote from: jimmothy on October 20, 2014, 08:30:21 PM

It's only 3 weeks past the date they expected to publish the "fast ASIC" results but I'm sure the delay/silence can only be a good sign.

I know that you haven't missed Guy's reply about this, but I will share it with you one more time:

Quote from: Guy Corem on October 15, 2014, 05:01:34 AM

- Updated SP31, SP35 and SP20 spec will be published on Tuesday or Wednesday next week

Now let's keep this thread on topic and tell me what's the difference between AM's pre-orders and SP-Tech's ones and if they should be on par or not in dogie's guide.

jimmothy

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Quote from: RoadStress on October 20, 2014, 08:23:42 PM

Quote from: Blazed on October 20, 2014, 08:03:45 PM

I agree with dogie on this.. AM was not really a pre order since they had chips in hand. AM just needed new boards and they had a holiday. SP is defently a pre order company...

Now scamalon being rated higher than AM is just silly though.

Please re-read my post. SP-Tech has chips in hand since August. What's the difference between AM and SP-Tech if they both have chips in hand and the product are already developed?

So what you are saying is that Guy lied when he said:

Quote from: Guy Corem on September 18, 2014, 01:07:59 AM

The SP20 should give better results then what we published. We'll get the faster ASICs in 2 weeks and revise the spec.

It's only 3 weeks past the date they expected to publish the "fast ASIC" results but I'm sure the delay/silence can only be a good sign.

Topic: [Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016] - page 22. (Read 131506 times)