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Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine... Revolution. - page 47. (Read 227096 times)

legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Germany welcomes Putin's 'constructive tone'

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/world/article/Germany-welcomes-Putin-s-constructive-tone-5461949.php?cmpid=twitter

Quote
Germany's foreign minister says Russian President Vladimir Putin's newly "constructive tone" could provide new momentum for a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine. Frank-Walter Steinmeier said Thursday "we are now at perhaps a decisive point" following Putin's meeting Wednesday with Swiss President Didier Burkhalter, whose country chairs the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
Just for some perspective, let's compare the Maidan Protests to the Pro-Russian separatist protests.

Support of the population (based on surveys)More than half of the whole country.12% in the wole countr. Maximum support of 33% in Donetsk oblast, and 41% in Crimea (when questioned before the current occupation).


Case A: Western Ukraine; Case B: Eastern Ukraine.

Oh, and you numbers are a bit off. Wink
http://modsite.by/allresult/#.U0mEKPl_vG9
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014

Sorry to hear the Russian public is so hawkish. That is really bad news.

Hawkishness is probably not entirely correct word. It's unlike the American political hawkishness of "let's start a war in a random country, so we can justify military budget spendings".

Hawkishness in Russian population centres around the feeling of injustice that happened in 1917 when the country was destroyed and torn apart. Many see that territories that were given away by self-proclaimed rulers then (Lenin = Turchinov, eh Wink), need to be returned. I doubt anyone thinks of reunification of Finland, but the Novorussia region, with its population composition and mindset which hasn't change since the beginning of 1900s is a fair candidate.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Sadly, this says absolutely nothing about the quality or the truth of the news they report. I mean look at this:

Once again, outside the US and the EU, Russia Today is one of the most trusted news channels. At least in my native place (South Asia) it is. Much more unbiased when compared to all the other pro-US channels such as BBC and CNN.
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_relations#Kievan_Rus.27

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After the Mongol invasion of Rus the histories of the Russian and Ukrainian people's started to diverge.[9] The former, having successfully united all the remnants of the Rus' northern provinces, swelled into a powerful Russian state. The latter came under the domination of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, followed by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.


And yes Russian and Ukranian are both slavic people. People who serve in Right Sector are mostly Polish Austrian descent. Also they rob population and beat random people up. How come army is idling? Perhaps cause they like fellow Slavs? Cheesy Ukrainian army might take example from Egypt and help people Cheesy

He looks Slavic to you? Cheesy Or like Khazar? USA Israel warmonger. Well hopefully soon Ukrainians restore peace and manage to pacify such people.

http://seansrussiablog.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Yarosh.jpg
hero member
Activity: 538
Merit: 500
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
Just for some perspective, let's compare the Maidan Protests to the Pro-Russian separatist protests.

MaidanPro-Russian Protests
GoalsTo free the country from a dictator-like corrupt government, and to integrate with the much more democratic countries of Europe, while maintaining government independence.Full or partial occupation of their own country by a foreign, dictatorial, corrupt regime, and be swallowed up by an antidemocratic country with a total loss of their region's independence
MethodsDuring the course of the first months, strict non-violence, despite the use of force, even to the point of torture and killings, by the ruling force. Only after the ruling party broke promises on multiple occasions, and continued to use violent force against the protesters, did the protesters became violent themselves. Still, their main weapons were sticks and molotov cocktails. Firearms were almost entirely absent. Treatment of captured prisoners, though strict, was still mostly fair.Use of violence from the very beginning, including capture of administrative buildings, law enforcement offices, military facilities, seizure of military weaponry (including machine guns and grenade launchers), and distribution of weapons to supporters. Murder, torture, violent beatings of unarmed protesters, capture of hostages, use of women and children as human shields, and abuse of captured prisoners.
The role of foreign allied countriesVerbal support - much later economic sanctions. Everything is done in the open.Strategic and violent. Military occupation and annexation of Crimea using the already available and moved-in foreign troops, capture of buildings and objectives by foreign special forces, sending spies and saboteurs deeper into the country, and concentration of troops on the borders. All this done while hypocritically denying supplies to the rebels and army intelligence services of the country they claim to support.
National IdeologyUnity of the Ukrainian nation, including all ethnic groups and regions of Ukraine; absence of hatred and ethnic discrimination.Splitting the nation and the state, hatred of all things Ukrainian, European, and American. Russian fascism and anti-Semitism.
The Language IssueOfficial government language is Ukrainian, but no one objects to speaking in Russian. Russian language was frequently heard on Maidan. There is not a single case of abuse or violence against someone, just because they are speaking Russian.Hatred and contempt for the Ukrainian language, lack of recognition of it as a "real language," unwillingness to hear or learn any language other than Russian.
OrganizationSelf-organization from below; official policies more hurt than help; proven that massive cases of payoffs by special interests were not happening.Protests inspired by a foreign state; bystanders playing the role of pawns, extras, or human shields, governed by coordinators and fighters sent from abroad. There are numerous cases of people being paid off to act (although there are plenty of actors working for ideological reasons)
Support of the population (based on surveys)More than half of the whole country.12% in the whole country. Maximum support of 33% in Donetsk oblast, and 41% in Crimea (when questioned before the current occupation).
Intellectual, cultural, and creative levelIn general, high. On Maidan there was its own library, art exhibitions, lecture readings, comedy skits, musicians, poets, etc. Hig creativity, with many ingenious slogans and posters, and ingenuity in combat conditions (catapults and fire barricades).In general, low. Zero creativity, no own ideas, barricade tactics copied from Maidan. Many participants apparently with a criminal past.
AtmosphereIn general positive and polite, often even in relation to opponents.Generally vicious and aggressive, with constant cursing, threats, and physical aggression.
Behavior in captured buildingsMaintaining order, attempt to minimize possible damage.Vandalism and looting; piles of garbage.
AlcoholProhibited.Actively used. Also cases of drug use.
PropagandaMostly truthful, except for the inevitable in a revolutionary situation, with regards to unverified rumors.Almost entirely false, with the lies generated with all the might of a foreign state propaganda machine.
Attitude towards Soviet regimeNegative.Positive.
sr. member
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legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
Yet another proof that the anti-Russian propaganda is not working:

Russia Today becomes the first news channel to get a billion hits on YouTube!



Sadly, this says absolutely nothing about the quality or the truth of the news they report. I mean look at this:



And Fox News has been blatant about their propaganda and lies.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1007
Live like there is no tomorrow!
I think it's great to read all the news from all possible sides over here, go on Smiley.

Obviously, Putin had it enough and is seeking his way out. Taking Crimea might easily prove to be Russian Pyrrhic victory.

Too early to say that. If he does something like that, his popularity back home in Russia will take a severe beating. < . . >

I'm not sure about that. Some people might think he and Russia is weak by doing that, but others may think he and Russia is strong by doing that..  I think it really depends on the people.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
Tymoshenko at present is without any functions in the Ukraine government so why do You imply it's her decision? As for Putin popularity falling in Russian I don't think thats going to happen. When Crimea was taken by Russia many Russian citizens where against that.

1. Oleksandr Turchynov is widely considered as the proxy of Yulia Tymoshenko.

2. Putin's popularity received a boost during the Crimean invasion and currently stands at around 65% (verified by Western media sources). Much higher than Obama and Merkel.

3. I have followed sites like Vkontakte and Russian language discussion forums. More than 95% of the Russians were supportive of Putin's move to annex Russia. As far as I know, the current mood of the Russian public is even more hawkish than that of Putin.

Putin's move to annex Russia
Perhaps Sarah Palin wants to annex Russia?  Grin
I know it's a typo...




Sorry to hear the Russian public is so hawkish. That is really bad news.

legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Tymoshenko at present is without any functions in the Ukraine government so why do You imply it's her decision? As for Putin popularity falling in Russian I don't think thats going to happen. When Crimea was taken by Russia many Russian citizens where against that.

1. Oleksandr Turchynov is widely considered as the proxy of Yulia Tymoshenko.

2. Putin's popularity received a boost during the Crimean invasion and currently stands at around 65% (verified by Western media sources). Much higher than Obama and Merkel.

3. I have followed sites like Vkontakte and Russian language discussion forums. More than 95% of the Russians were supportive of Putin's move to annex Crimea. As far as I know, the current mood of the Russian public is even more hawkish than that of Putin.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1001
Too early to say that. If he does something like that, his popularity back home in Russia will take a severe beating. That said, he had put some pre-conditions to the Kiev-junta, such as completely stopping the ongoing operations against civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk. Not sure whether Tymoshenko and her servants would agree to it.

Tymoshenko at present is without any functions in the Ukraine government so why do You imply it's her decision? As for Putin popularity falling in Russian I don't think thats going to happen. When Crimea was taken by Russia many Russian citizens where against that.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Yet another proof that the anti-Russian propaganda is not working:

Russia Today becomes the first news channel to get a billion hits on YouTube!

legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
Obviously, Putin had it enough and is seeking his way out. Taking Crimea might easily prove to be Russian Pyrrhic victory.

I doubt it. Surrendering Crimea, seeing Simferopol becoming a NATO naval base would have been a devastating blow to Crimeans. The cost was much higher when Russia returned Crimea from German Fascist occupation. What Russia loses? Goodwill of the West? It didn't have it since... well, never. What it gains? It's territory of the last 300 years and people who've had it enough with Ukrainian rule.

(Oh, and Crime might prove useful in EuroVision as Crimeans still vote on behalf of Ukraine, so Russia is going to get several hundred thousand, maybe up to a million votes from there.  Tongue)

Besides, the question of Novorossia is not yet over. He speaks about postponing the referendum, not cancelling it. Peace is the same condition for a legitimate referendum as it is for pan-Ukrainian presidential election.

Case in point:
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2014/05/07/n_6136733.shtml
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Obviously, Putin had it enough and is seeking his way out. Taking Crimea might easily prove to be Russian Pyrrhic victory.

Too early to say that. If he does something like that, his popularity back home in Russia will take a severe beating. That said, he had put some pre-conditions to the Kiev-junta, such as completely stopping the ongoing operations against civilians in Donetsk and Lugansk. Not sure whether Tymoshenko and her servants would agree to it.
sr. member
Activity: 334
Merit: 250
Obviously, Putin had it enough and is seeking his way out. Taking Crimea might easily prove to be Russian Pyrrhic victory.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
An interesting move by Putin:

Putin calls for end to Kiev’s military op, postponing referendum in E. Ukraine
http://rt.com/news/157404-putin-ukraine-crisis-kiev/

Quote
"Russia believes that the crisis, which originated in Ukraine and is now actively developing in accordance with the worst-case scenario, is to be blamed on those who organized the coup in Kiev on 22-23 February and still do not care to disarm the right-wing and nationalist elements," the president said.

Direct dialogue between Kiev and anti-government protesters in southeast Ukraine is key to ending the crisis, Putin said.

It is now essential to create “to create the necessary conditions for this dialogue,” he added.

Quote
“We are calling for southeast Ukraine representatives, supporters of federalization of the country, to postpone the May 11 referendum to create the necessary conditions for dialogue,” Putin said at a press conference with OSCE Chairperson-in-Office and Swiss President Didier Burkhalter in Moscow.

In response to Putin’s offer, one of the leaders of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Denis Pushilin, said the possibility would be discussed Thursday.

“We respect Putin’s position. He is a balanced politician. So we will submit this proposal tomorrow to the people’s council,” he said. 
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
I'm sorry for strong words, but I'm reading your messages during long time and I have to say this. There is a difference between blind faith and knowledge. It's unfortunately but you have nothing more than obsession with faith into your own perverted version of history, while I possess the knowledge. If you don't know something then ask two opposite persons at least and make your choice without using any emotional experience from the past. If you wish to become someone greater than ignorant fanatic, then you have to forget everything what you have seen in BBC, CNN, bullshit textbooks and start analyze facts, you must be able to think without any help from anybody.

I don't watch BBC, CNN, or read bullshit textbooks. You guys should stop reading bullshit from rt.com and other Russian propaganda machines. It's nice that you think you have learned "knowledge," but it was likely just more made up bullshit, sorry to tell you. Mine is not faith, but your is likely myth and made up propaganda.

Talking about your question... I don't believe, I know it. There were no nationality and language issues during the last 70 years at least.

Could that have been due to the fact that Ukraine was forcefully occupied as part of the USSR, and any dissent got you a one way ticket to a Siberian gulag???

 
You are talking about "russians" while having no idea that there are no differences between "russians" and "ukrainians", they are the same people.

I suppose next you're going to tell me that Mexicans and Americans (east-coast colonial) are the same people?

They were on these lands even before Russian Empire was formed.

That's the lie that Russia made up way in the 1700's. On Ukrainian lands was Kievan Rus. On Russian lands were Finish tribes, then a knyaz who had no allegiance to Ukraine, then a bunch more knyazy who were aligned with Mongolian khanate, NOT Ukraine. Did you even read this? http://oleg-leusenko.livejournal.com/1361141.html I had 4+ years of studying Ukraine's history, culture, and geography, but that is a good summary of the Russian counterpart. Sorry to disappoint you, but Russia doesn't have the glorious history they tried to write for themselves.

And nobody had any problem before your fucken EU decided to fund nazi parties in the beginning of 1990s and then stage a nazi coup here.

Really? NOBODY had any problems? Not even from the widespread corruption? Or during the Orange Revolution? And everyone was just fine with Yanukovich scrapping the constitution and trying to give himself dictatorial powers? That last one is the #1 reason that the Maidan revolution happened, and the #1 reason that people there, including my friends, were protesting and supporting the protests. Not because of some made up Nazi bullshit.

Remove the junta, ban nazi parties and everybody will go home. It's the only possible solution, and east will do it eventually anyway... Through creating new federative state or another coup, time will tell.

How do you even know that there are Nazi parties there? What's the difference between a Nazi, and a Ukrainian who, after being forcefully subjected to 70 years of Russian Soviet rule, and 20 more years of Russian-supported communist political leaders, now distrusts Russians? My friends and relatives from Ukraine don't see many Nazis. Maybe a small insignificant group at best (just like USA has KKK, but they are insignificant). The most they see is severe distrust of Russian government and their propaganda.
legendary
Activity: 3108
Merit: 1359
there are no differences between "russians" and "ukrainians", it's the same people

Yes, all historical sources dating back to the 9th century are indicating that the Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians are the same people. It's something really hard to dispute, not even the most ridiculous extreme modern historical revisionists dare to claim that they're not. They share Kievan Rus' as their common ancestry.

Which, of course, doesn't mean that they must stand under one flag, nor that the strongest state has some kind of natural right to rule the other two  Smiley

It is like saying that there is no difference between Germany and Austria. They speak the same language and are practically the same nation. And why there are so many muslim countries when all muslims are the same? One religion, one language similar beliefs?
Ukrainian and Belorussian SSRs were created by Lenin as the artificial  buffer states between RSFSR and the west. The same is correct for Far-East Republic between RSFSR and Japan. These states served their buffer purpose and also allowed Bolsheviks to get additional votes in the international organizations.

Austria is a result of WW1, empire was divided to make it weaker;
Turkey and neighborhood were created from Ottoman Empire to make it weaker;

An arabic states case is quite different. The most of these states have preserved original borders before arabic expansion... France, UK are soon to be turned into arabic states in the same way, while keeping original borders.
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