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Topic: Mixers to be banned - page 6. (Read 23006 times)

Poker Player

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Quote from: mindrust on April 14, 2024, 02:12:12 PM

Soon we'll have to enter our National ID number every time we go online.

I remember years ago there was an EU project to require every user to identify themselves to access online social networks that could include forums, and theymos said something like that he was not going to pay any attention if a "Bolshevik" EU requirement came for that. In view of what's happened recently, I am not so sure what he would do now if such a requirement came, especially from the USA.

mindrust

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Quote from: Sandra_hakeem on April 14, 2024, 01:55:41 PM

Quote from: FatFork on April 14, 2024, 08:39:33 AM

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next.

That's obviously where we're going... I've observed that Theymos have made several irrevocable decisions without remorse and this, is just another one.
We, Bitcoin entirely didn't come this far just to amend the system in a way they could inject thier spywares to surreptitiously monitor people's asset. So the worst is about to happen!! Let's have it.

Enforced KYC on the exchanges
No meaningful DEX other than bisq which has near zero activity
Mixers shutting down and getting banned
Even the crypto only casinos added KYC in their ToS which is weird (like some government suit contacted them all)

Soon we'll have to enter our National ID number every time we go online.

The only way to get out of this mess is mass cooperation and it ain't happening.

Here are the 2 main problems have:

1- We all connect to a domain which the government provides. (Nobody's using .onion domains, maybe it is time to go underground eh?)
2- No business can survive without paying their taxes

They own the infrastructure, they own the businesses.

Nowhere to hide.

icopress

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Quote from: worldofcoins on April 14, 2024, 01:58:38 PM

If you take a look at the diagram of Jambler then you'll clearly see. (It's classified as a Mixer)
2* Letter of Guarantee is issued by the Jambler themselves.
3* & 4* Jambler is responsible for sending and receiving the coins from the Customer, and Partner MIXER doesn't even hold the funds.

In 2018, Jambler created a full-cycle software and sells its software to those who want to have a mixing business. And if you type “mix bitcoins” into Google and somehow end up on their website, you will not be able to make a mix as an ordinary user. You will need to deploy an affiliate node, which is 99.9% likely to deploy only if you want to become a real partner of the jumbler.

Not to mention that Jambler did not change the concept of its business for 6 years (even after censorship was launched on January 1). And the letters of guarantee that you mentioned are an integral part of their automated processes, and are designed to provide users with reliable information that the software that partners use is valid.

Poker Player

legendary

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Quote from: worldofcoins on April 14, 2024, 01:58:38 PM

I think many will blame Royse for that and the other campaign manager, who is anonymous atm.

No, I don't think it's that anonymous and I don't think people will blame that other campaign manager. If I had to bet on someone I would bet on my current campaign manager Little Mouse, as it is widely known that Royse777 and him are friends, and when Royse777 talks about "the" other campaign manager I think it is clear who he is talking about.

But I doubt that many people will blame him, since at least in public he keeps away from any controversy. I don't remember him intervening when I had big arguments with Royse777 neither in icopress or Gazeta vs Royse, or in other controversies.

worldofcoins

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From what I understand....without being in favor of anyone.
Royse contacted theymos asking to look into Jambler, theymos did it and banned the site on the forum. And royse asked one more manager to look into it and I don't want to get trolled so I am not trying to guess who it was and it doesn't matter.

Icopress lost a campaign that was dear to him/her and is trying to see if it's possible to save Jambler on the forum (it would be hard to do so)

My take on Jambler:

If you take a look at the diagram of Jambler then you'll clearly see. (It's classified as a Mixer, In short it seems Partner Mixer is acting as someone who's referring the mixing clients to Jambler's mixer to get a percentage of commission.)
2* Letter of Guarantee is issued by the Jambler themselves.
3* & 4* Jambler is responsible for sending and receiving the coins from the Customer, and Partner MIXER doesn't even hold the funds.

I don't think theymos will ban icopress since the Jambler was under the radar as to how it works and no one took a close enough look like Royse did (For some reason he thought he had to)

I think many will blame Royse for that and the other campaign manager, who is anonymous atm.

That's all I have to say for now.

Peace~

Sandra_hakeem

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Goodnight, ohh Leo!!! 🦅

Quote from: FatFork on April 14, 2024, 08:39:33 AM

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next.

Quote from: hugeblack on April 14, 2024, 07:30:38 AM

They don't necessarily announce that the upgrade is due to BTT but to make their system more "decentralized."

Is that a problem right now? Haaa!

Synchronice

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Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 12:22:50 PM

then banning Jambler is not necessary, since they perform blockchain analysis prior to accepting the fund and will return the "deposit" back to the originating wallet if the score [I used the word "tainted" here, though it probably not the best word to use] is negative, i.e. their origin is questionable.

They perform blockchain analysis on funds that they receive from sellers, aka investors. So, if you want to invest in Jambler.io and earn some profit, your deposited coins will undergo blockchain analysis to ensure that coins are clean. This doesn't mean that Jambler performs the analysis of coins that customers deposit on its partner mixers. You can check their FAQ and the FAQ of their partners, it's never said that coins that get deposited for mixer purposes ever undergo a blockchain analysis.

Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 12:22:50 PM

Thus, procedure-wise, whether it function like Wasabi or not? I don't think so too. They don't have the same SOP, and working on the completely different protocol.

Wasabi wallet performs blockchain analysis, that's why I asked this question but Jumbler doesn't performs that. By the way, performing of blockchain analysis destroys the privacy and the whole point of mixing and coinjoin.

FatFork

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Quote from: AB de Royse777 on April 14, 2024, 11:00:57 AM

Quote from: hugeblack on April 14, 2024, 04:30:21 AM

There was an ongoing discussion about that topic so I don't know why you shared it with admin.

It just happen without any prior plan. I saw your post and shared the link with the other manager. We laughed. He said maybe time to message theymos and ask by pointing your post. I said I am also thinking the same. Both of us messaged theymos and then we read this update. I am sure none of us asked for a ban but to give us a clarification.

I doubt you can play the ignorance card here. You were fully aware of the potential consequences of your actions, and I can only assume that getting Jambler banned was your main motive. (Honestly, what else could it be?) You wanted to stir the pot, get a reaction, and ultimately end a valuable campaign on the forum. Well, congratulations! You can do the victory dance now. I'm sure the campaign's dedicated members, all good contributors to this community by the way, will thank you for that.

But at least take some responsibility instead of this pathetic attempt to deflect blame.

holydarkness

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Quote from: Synchronice on April 14, 2024, 10:56:15 AM

[...]

Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 07:35:27 AM

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.

So, does Jambler function like Wasabi wallet?[...]

Actually, what I talked about and tried to propose is that if the initial purpose of mixers banning from the forum is to protect the forum [as a whole] from being stamped as [for the lack of better words] accesories-to-criminal-activities due to repetitive money laundering incidents done through several mixer platforms, then banning Jambler is not necessary, since they perform blockchain analysis prior to accepting the fund and will return the "deposit" back to the originating wallet if the score [I used the word "tainted" here, though it probably not the best word to use] is negative, i.e. their origin is questionable.

In other words, I initially assume, SOP-wise it is quite safe to say they can not be used as a money laundering platform, so the initial concern that lead to the decision to ban mixers is not needed on Jambler, nor to put them on the same category. But explanation from BlackHatCoiner, that it is still possible to launder bitcoin through the partners of Jambler made me have to re-think it deeper and consider if I stand corrected.

In five words or less: I was talking about procedure.

Thus, procedure-wise, whether it function like Wasabi or not? I don't think so too. They don't have the same SOP, and working on the completely different protocol.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Oh wow. I haven't been following any of this, and thus I'm reading about it for the first time. Call me an idiot (at least tech-wise), but when I looked at Jambler's description a while back I didn't pick up on anything that made it look like a mixer. Then again, I did not look too closely under the hood, so to speak. Yeesh.

Quote from: FatFork on April 14, 2024, 08:39:33 AM

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next.

On the forum or in the real world by governments? The latter is already happening, but I think there's a big difference between non-KYC exchanges and mixers, though I have no doubt there's a huge debate that could be had about that. I understand Theymos's position and his concerns, but I do hope he doesn't pre-emptively ban advertisement/discussion of a lot of other things for fear of the government's microscope.

AB de Royse777

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Quote from: icopress on April 13, 2024, 04:23:47 PM

Btw, do you still tell your clients that you have 65 positive feedbacks?

Quote

Is it better now? Everyone is discussing about mixer and Jambler but you want to discuss about the number of feedback I have.

What else do you want to discuss about? Why was I delaying but didn't agree with your offer to pay Sinbad due, why NotATether accepted my offer to rent his banner space, why am I not increasing payment on altcoinstalks. etc? Aren't there many other things you want to discuss and post openly (without tagging my name, leaving it unnoticed for me but it's about me) so that it looks like you are a great campaign manager, taller than I and some others? Mind your own business, I have many members to take lessons from but not you and your minions. Realize your own motives before understanding my motives.

Why are you angry? - For theymos to clarify that Jambler is a mixer

Which one is wrong?
- Continuing a forbidden business model on the forum
- Asking theymos to give a clarification
Which one from the above or both?

Quote from: hugeblack on April 12, 2024, 04:38:19 AM

[...]

Man, black will not become white just because you call it that, just like Jambler will not cease to be a tool for creating a mixing business. Since 2018, Jambler has not changed the concept of its business, and has never provided services to ordinary users who want to mix bitcoins.

Quote from: hugeblack on April 14, 2024, 04:30:21 AM

There was an ongoing discussion about that topic so I don't know why you shared it with admin.

Synchronice

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Quote from: cryptofrka on April 14, 2024, 04:13:49 AM

Nice to see that personal vendettas are ruining decentralization for us all.

We as a society really don't deserve anything anymore.

That's on point and it's so pity at the same time.
I personally think that Jambler is not much different from actual mixers and I agree with theymos's decision but this is not the problem here, the problem is that people who tried to change jambler's status as banned did this not for the safety of the forum but for personal vendettas. This attitude kills community and this attitude hurts many people.

Quote from: hugeblack on April 14, 2024, 07:30:38 AM

- If any legal problems occur, then jambler will be safe as the actual mixing is done through partners.

Actual mixing is done through partners but it's jambler's money after all (some of them belong to investors) but their business model offers some benefits and protection to them. If their partner gets in trouble, Jambler might stop providing that partner with its mixing service and this way they'll gain less attention and problems. Having partners is like having masks, if someone catches you in one mask, you change it with another one.

Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 07:35:27 AM

So, does Jambler function like Wasabi wallet?

Quote from: FatFork on April 14, 2024, 08:39:33 AM

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next. This is not what Bitcoin is supposed to represent, but it's hard to fight the "system".

If they become illegal or if government will tag them as money launderers and there will be freqeunt articles about money laundering through non-kyc exchanges or decentralized exchanges, then they'll be banned too.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 09:12:30 AM

[...]

It nowhere says "money laundering" and "taint". AML services always tell you that they do blockchain analysis to prevent receiving "tainted" coins or to fight money laundering. It is quite obvious that you can launder bitcoin through the partners of Jambler, and perhaps it is their best selling point one could argue.

The closest wording to "taint" is "cryptocurrency of questionable origin", which I agree that it's vague, but it doesn't necessarily mean "tainted" with the accepted sense of the term.

holydarkness

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on April 14, 2024, 07:59:33 AM

Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 07:35:27 AM

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny.

Mixers do two things. Receive money (be it tainted or not) and send money, to break the link. Jambler's partners use the Jambler API to do that. You could argue that every other mixer receives "tainted" and sends "clean" coins, just as well.

Am I the only reading that they perform blockchain analysis to prevent investors from scamming Jambler?

Quote from: https://jambler.io/become-seller.php

This stage makes it possible to terminate attempts of unfair investors to use an investment admittance as a mixer in order to clear their money and gain profit at the same time.

Examining coins to check that the investor doesn't try to cheat the system, and examining coins to avoid receiving "tainted" coins are two different things.

Do I understand things wrongly? I thought, based from their explanation on that page I snipped, Jambler will refuse to "mix and clean" the incoming funds if their analysis [be it through Jambler API or other methods] came with a result that the fund is tainted, thus it is not "pro-ML". This is different from mixers who accept those funds and clean them, regardless the source of the fund and the "taint score".

And regardless of whose behalf is the analysis being performed [Jambler's or investors' or goverments or even the victim of stolen funds], the point is they perform the analysis and return the fund [refuse to transact] to the originating address if it is tainted. Thus, if the point of banning mixers is to protect the forum and its members from being accessory to ML and TF, then banning Jambler will not be necessary, given Jambler does not facilitate ML and TF.

Quote from: mindrust on April 14, 2024, 08:17:06 AM

[...]F daym. Gimme my 10 merits back. I am scammed. Cool

[...]

LMAO, sorry, but merit transaction is not reversible, it can not be undone. You've been warned!

LoyceV

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on April 14, 2024, 07:59:33 AM

Am I the only reading that they perform blockchain analysis to prevent investors from scamming Jambler?

Quote from: https://jambler.io/become-seller.php

This stage makes it possible to terminate attempts of unfair investors to use an investment admittance as a mixer in order to clear their money and gain profit at the same time.

What if someone has "clean" (whatever that may mean) funds, and only wants to break the link for his privacy? He could then be an investor, and gain profit after getting his money back.
This whole check makes it sounds like they expect customers to mix "dirty" money, instead of just wanting privacy.

FatFork

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This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next. This is not what Bitcoin is supposed to represent, but it's hard to fight the "system".
I can understand theymos' decision but I don't have to like it.

mindrust

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Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 07:35:27 AM

In addition to above, theymos, isn't the initial purpose of banning mixers to protect the forum from goverments ~~persistent~~ prolific attempt to shut down money laundering activity? Thus, it can be derived that mixers banning are due to their close relationship with ML and other criminal uses.
On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.

...

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on April 14, 2024, 07:59:33 AM

Am I the only reading that they perform blockchain analysis to prevent investors from scamming Jambler?

Quote from: https://jambler.io/become-seller.php

This stage makes it possible to terminate attempts of unfair investors to use an investment admittance as a mixer in order to clear their money and gain profit at the same time.

Examining coins to check that the investor doesn't try to cheat the system, and examining coins to avoid receiving "tainted" coins are two different things.

F daym. Gimme my 10 merits back. I am scammed. Cool

*Just joking. I thought you were right for a moment till I read BlackHat's post and I guess he is righterr.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 07:35:27 AM

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny.

Am I the only reading that they perform blockchain analysis to prevent investors from scamming Jambler?

Quote from: https://jambler.io/become-seller.php

This stage makes it possible to terminate attempts of unfair investors to use an investment admittance as a mixer in order to clear their money and gain profit at the same time.

Examining coins to check that the investor doesn't try to cheat the system, and examining coins to avoid receiving "tainted" coins are two different things.

cryptosize

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Quote from: holydarkness on April 14, 2024, 07:35:27 AM

Quote from: hugeblack on April 14, 2024, 04:30:21 AM

@theymos I think that if Jambler partners are the ones who receive deposits and withdrawals, bear full responsibility for clients’ funds, and Jambler is the one who provides liquidity and technical support, then it should be allowed. What do you think?

Jambler provides a privacy feature and there are not many privacy services that are advertised here with high-quality posters, so giving them another chance will be beneficial for all.

In addition to above, theymos, isn't the initial purpose of banning mixers to protect the forum from goverments ~~persistent~~ prolific attempt to shut down money laundering activity? Thus, it can be derived that mixers banning are due to their close relationship with ML and other criminal uses.

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.

So Jambler uses AML/chain analysis and buys the concept of "tainted" BTC... interesting.

holydarkness

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Quote from: hugeblack on April 14, 2024, 04:30:21 AM

In addition to above, theymos, isn't the initial purpose of banning mixers to protect the forum from goverments ~~persistent~~ prolific attempt to shut down money laundering activity? Thus, it can be derived that mixers banning are due to their close relationship with ML and other criminal uses.

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.