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Topic: Mixers to be banned - page 7. (Read 23809 times)

legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6981
Top Crypto Casino
April 14, 2024, 10:17:39 AM
Oh wow.  I haven't been following any of this, and thus I'm reading about it for the first time.  Call me an idiot (at least tech-wise), but when I looked at Jambler's description a while back I didn't pick up on anything that made it look like a mixer.  Then again, I did not look too closely under the hood, so to speak.  Yeesh.

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next.

On the forum or in the real world by governments?  The latter is already happening, but I think there's a big difference between non-KYC exchanges and mixers, though I have no doubt there's a huge debate that could be had about that.  I understand Theymos's position and his concerns, but I do hope he doesn't pre-emptively ban advertisement/discussion of a lot of other things for fear of the government's microscope.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 3878
Hire Bitcointalk Camp. Manager @ r7promotions.com
April 14, 2024, 10:00:57 AM
Btw, do you still tell your clients that you have 65 positive feedbacks?

Quote

Is it better now? Everyone is discussing about mixer and Jambler but you want to discuss about the number of feedback I have.

What else do you want to discuss about? Why was I delaying but didn't agree with your offer to pay Sinbad due, why NotATether accepted my offer to rent his banner space, why am I not increasing payment on altcoinstalks. etc? Aren't there many other things you want to discuss and post openly (without tagging my name, leaving it unnoticed for me but it's about me) so that it looks like you are a great campaign manager, taller than I and some others? Mind your own business, I have many members to take lessons from but not you and your minions. Realize your own motives before understanding my motives.

Why are you angry? - For theymos to clarify that Jambler is a mixer

Which one is wrong?
- Continuing a forbidden business model on the forum
- Asking theymos to give a clarification
Which one from the above or both?



[...]
Man, black will not become white just because you call it that, just like Jambler will not cease to be a tool for creating a mixing business. Since 2018, Jambler has not changed the concept of its business, and has never provided services to ordinary users who want to mix bitcoins.

There was an ongoing discussion about that topic so I don't know why you shared it with admin.
It just happen without any prior plan. I saw your post and shared the link with the other manager. We laughed. He said maybe time to message theymos and ask by pointing your post. I said I am also thinking the same. Both of us messaged theymos and then we read this update. I am sure none of us asked for a ban but to give us a clarification.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 792
Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim
April 14, 2024, 09:56:15 AM
Nice to see that personal vendettas are ruining decentralization for us all.

We as a society really don't deserve anything anymore.
That's on point and it's so pity at the same time.
I personally think that Jambler is not much different from actual mixers and I agree with theymos's decision but this is not the problem here, the problem is that people who tried to change jambler's status as banned did this not for the safety of the forum but for personal vendettas. This attitude kills community and this attitude hurts many people.

- If any legal problems occur, then jambler will be safe as the actual mixing is done through partners.
Actual mixing is done through partners but it's jambler's money after all (some of them belong to investors) but their business model offers some benefits and protection to them. If their partner gets in trouble, Jambler might stop providing that partner with its mixing service and this way they'll gain less attention and problems. Having partners is like having masks, if someone catches you in one mask, you change it with another one.

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.
So, does Jambler function like Wasabi wallet?

This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next. This is not what Bitcoin is supposed to represent, but it's hard to fight the "system".
If they become illegal or if government will tag them as money launderers and there will be freqeunt articles about money laundering through non-kyc exchanges or decentralized exchanges, then they'll be banned too.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
April 14, 2024, 08:20:34 AM
[...]
It nowhere says "money laundering" and "taint". AML services always tell you that they do blockchain analysis to prevent receiving "tainted" coins or to fight money laundering. It is quite obvious that you can launder bitcoin through the partners of Jambler, and perhaps it is their best selling point one could argue.

The closest wording to "taint" is "cryptocurrency of questionable origin", which I agree that it's vague, but it doesn't necessarily mean "tainted" with the accepted sense of the term.
legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1462
Yes, I'm an asshole
April 14, 2024, 08:12:30 AM
On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny.
Mixers do two things. Receive money (be it tainted or not) and send money, to break the link. Jambler's partners use the Jambler API to do that. You could argue that every other mixer receives "tainted" and sends "clean" coins, just as well.



Am I the only reading that they perform blockchain analysis to prevent investors from scamming Jambler?
Quote from: https://[banned mixer
/become-seller.php]This stage makes it possible to terminate attempts of unfair investors to use an investment admittance as a mixer in order to clear their money and gain profit at the same time.

Examining coins to check that the investor doesn't try to cheat the system, and examining coins to avoid receiving "tainted" coins are two different things.

Do I understand things wrongly? I thought, based from their explanation on that page I snipped, Jambler will refuse to "mix and clean" the incoming funds if their analysis [be it through Jambler API or other methods] came with a result that the fund is tainted, thus it is not "pro-ML". This is different from mixers who accept those funds and clean them, regardless the source of the fund and the "taint score".

And regardless of whose behalf is the analysis being performed [Jambler's or investors' or goverments or even the victim of stolen funds], the point is they perform the analysis and return the fund [refuse to transact] to the originating address if it is tainted. Thus, if the point of banning mixers is to protect the forum and its members from being accessory to ML and TF, then banning Jambler will not be necessary, given Jambler does not facilitate ML and TF.



[...]F daym. Gimme my 10 merits back. I am scammed.  Cool[...]

LMAO, sorry, but merit transaction is not reversible, it can not be undone. You've been warned!
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
April 14, 2024, 07:53:29 AM
Am I the only reading that they perform blockchain analysis to prevent investors from scamming Jambler?
Quote from: https://[banned mixer
/become-seller.php]This stage makes it possible to terminate attempts of unfair investors to use an investment admittance as a mixer in order to clear their money and gain profit at the same time.
What if someone has "clean" (whatever that may mean) funds, and only wants to break the link for his privacy? He could then be an investor, and gain profit after getting his money back.
This whole check makes it sounds like they expect customers to mix "dirty" money, instead of just wanting privacy.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 2594
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April 14, 2024, 07:39:33 AM
This is so unfortunate. I suspect that non-KYC exchanges and other custodial services will be targeted next. This is not what Bitcoin is supposed to represent, but it's hard to fight the "system".
I can understand theymos' decision but I don't have to like it.
legendary
Activity: 3276
Merit: 2442
April 14, 2024, 07:17:06 AM
In addition to above, theymos, isn't the initial purpose of banning mixers to protect the forum from goverments persistent prolific attempt to shut down money laundering activity? Thus, it can be derived that mixers banning are due to their close relationship with ML and other criminal uses.
On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.

...

Am I the only reading that they perform blockchain analysis to prevent investors from scamming Jambler?
Quote from: https://[banned mixer
/become-seller.php]This stage makes it possible to terminate attempts of unfair investors to use an investment admittance as a mixer in order to clear their money and gain profit at the same time.

Examining coins to check that the investor doesn't try to cheat the system, and examining coins to avoid receiving "tainted" coins are two different things.

F daym. Gimme my 10 merits back. I am scammed.  Cool

*Just joking. I thought you were right for a moment till I read BlackHat's post and I guess he is righterr.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
April 14, 2024, 06:59:33 AM
On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny.
Mixers do two things. Receive money (be it tainted or not) and send money, to break the link. Jambler's partners use the Jambler API to do that. You could argue that every other mixer receives "tainted" and sends "clean" coins, just as well.



Am I the only reading that they perform blockchain analysis to prevent investors from scamming Jambler?
Quote from: https://[banned mixer
/become-seller.php]This stage makes it possible to terminate attempts of unfair investors to use an investment admittance as a mixer in order to clear their money and gain profit at the same time.

Examining coins to check that the investor doesn't try to cheat the system, and examining coins to avoid receiving "tainted" coins are two different things.
sr. member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 310
April 14, 2024, 06:45:02 AM
@theymos I think that if Jambler partners are the ones who receive deposits and withdrawals, bear full responsibility for clients’ funds, and Jambler is the one who provides liquidity and technical support, then it should be allowed. What do you think?

Jambler provides a privacy feature and there are not many privacy services that are advertised here with high-quality posters, so giving them another chance will be beneficial for all.

In addition to above, theymos, isn't the initial purpose of banning mixers to protect the forum from goverments persistent prolific attempt to shut down money laundering activity? Thus, it can be derived that mixers banning are due to their close relationship with ML and other criminal uses.

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.


So Jambler uses AML/chain analysis and buys the concept of "tainted" BTC... interesting.
legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1462
Yes, I'm an asshole
April 14, 2024, 06:35:27 AM
@theymos I think that if Jambler partners are the ones who receive deposits and withdrawals, bear full responsibility for clients’ funds, and Jambler is the one who provides liquidity and technical support, then it should be allowed. What do you think?

Jambler provides a privacy feature and there are not many privacy services that are advertised here with high-quality posters, so giving them another chance will be beneficial for all.

In addition to above, theymos, isn't the initial purpose of banning mixers to protect the forum from goverments persistent prolific attempt to shut down money laundering activity? Thus, it can be derived that mixers banning are due to their close relationship with ML and other criminal uses.

On this case, Jambler actually do the exact opposite of mixers in the sense of laundering money; receiving tainted money and sending them all clean and shiny. Jambler do a Blockchain check prior to accepting transaction. When the result come negative, they reject the transaction and return the fund to the originating address, ultimately fighting against money laundering.

legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 3911
April 14, 2024, 06:30:38 AM
You can't expect all Jambler partners to update their websites just because Bitcointalk is banning Jambler.

I can think of four reasons:

 - Mixtum & Mixermoney & WebMixer& jambler was paying about +15K per week, so the forum is important to them, especially after CM was banned.
 - ALTT is still small compared to BTT.
 - If any legal problems occur, then jambler will be safe as the actual mixing is done through partners.
 - From a technical standpoint, modifying the code is easy. Instead of calling ----> https://api.[banned mixer]/, they can copy the content of the code to partners back-end and call Liquidity lib code. Conversely, it will be an advantage as the mixing algorithm will be unique for each partners.

They don't necessarily announce that the upgrade is due to BTT but to make their system more "decentralized."
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
April 14, 2024, 06:10:04 AM
@theymos I think that if Jambler partners are the ones who receive deposits and withdrawals, bear full responsibility for clients’ funds, and Jambler is the one who provides liquidity and technical support, then it should be allowed. What do you think?

You can't expect all Jambler partners to update their websites just because Bitcointalk is banning Jambler.
legendary
Activity: 2870
Merit: 7490
Crypto Swap Exchange
April 14, 2024, 03:43:20 AM
inb4 XMR ban (built-in mixer) Grin

That would require different definition or criteria of "mixer".

Nice to see that personal vendettas are ruining decentralization for us all.

We as a society really don't deserve anything anymore.

Jambler isn't decentralized though. They don't use that term either on their homepage or FAQ.
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 3911
April 14, 2024, 03:30:21 AM
@theymos I think that if Jambler partners are the ones who receive deposits and withdrawals, bear full responsibility for clients’ funds, and Jambler is the one who provides liquidity and technical support, then it should be allowed. What do you think?

Jambler provides a privacy feature and there are not many privacy services that are advertised here with high-quality posters, so giving them another chance will be beneficial for all.

But today after reading the post, we decided to share it with theymos.
There was an ongoing discussion about that topic so I don't know why you shared it with admin. The discussion started from here[1] and its goal was to improve the service, not attack it.

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5491818
legendary
Activity: 2226
Merit: 1571
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April 14, 2024, 03:13:49 AM
Nice to see that personal vendettas are ruining decentralization for us all.

We as a society really don't deserve anything anymore.
sr. member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 310
April 13, 2024, 06:22:59 PM
inb4 XMR ban (built-in mixer) Grin
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 5874
light_warrior ... 🕯️
April 13, 2024, 03:23:47 PM
It's fair now [...] we decided to share it with theymos.
Your interpretation and motives are clear to me. But do not confuse a sense of justice with hidden envy or anger.

Btw, do you still tell your clients that you have 65 positive feedbacks?

Quote
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 3878
Hire Bitcointalk Camp. Manager @ r7promotions.com
April 13, 2024, 02:53:31 PM
There goes another business into the warm arms of altcointalk.
It's fair now. The community was misguided to believe that they are not a mixer. Many members knew about it but it was not discussed publicly. Even long time ago I and another highly reputed manager talked about it but decided to let it go. I did not want to be insulted and be trolled in case theymos had a different thinking that he has no problem with mixer working in different condition. But today after reading the post, we decided to share it with theymos.

We still have a long way to go to realize the original affect of the mixer ban from Bitcointalk. Right now we already know when a mixer act specious, it takes longer time to learn about it. In the recent time it happened with Yo!Mix. I learned about it after a few weeks while I was the one who was managing their signature campaign before mixers were ban on the forum.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
April 13, 2024, 02:51:41 PM
Jambler "has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property"
Strictly speaking, it doesn't. Jambler doesn't act as a mixer, in and of itself. For partners, yes, it takes property, and yes it might return roughly the same plus a profit, but it nowhere says that it improves their privacy. The point of being a partner is to earn profit.

I could go on, but I don't think it matters, because it seems that you've made your choice. You could slightly change the criteria in the OP and it'd be rightly considered a mixer. You can't beat the admin.
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