Mixers to be banned - page 7. | Bitcointalksearch.org

hugeblack

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Quote from: NotATether on April 14, 2024, 07:10:04 AM

You can't expect all Jambler partners to update their websites just because Bitcointalk is banning Jambler.

I can think of four reasons:

- Mixtum & Mixermoney & WebMixer& jambler was paying about +15K per week, so the forum is important to them, especially after CM was banned.
- ALTT is still small compared to BTT.
- If any legal problems occur, then jambler will be safe as the actual mixing is done through partners.
- From a technical standpoint, modifying the code is easy. Instead of calling ----> https://api.jambler.io/, they can copy the content of the code to partners back-end and call Liquidity lib code. Conversely, it will be an advantage as the mixing algorithm will be unique for each partners.

They don't necessarily announce that the upgrade is due to BTT but to make their system more "decentralized."

NotATether

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Quote from: hugeblack on April 14, 2024, 04:30:21 AM

@theymos I think that if Jambler partners are the ones who receive deposits and withdrawals, bear full responsibility for clients’ funds, and Jambler is the one who provides liquidity and technical support, then it should be allowed. What do you think?

You can't expect all Jambler partners to update their websites just because Bitcointalk is banning Jambler.

ABCbits

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Quote from: cryptosize on April 13, 2024, 07:22:59 PM

inb4 XMR ban (built-in mixer) Grin

That would require different definition or criteria of "mixer".

Quote from: cryptofrka on April 14, 2024, 04:13:49 AM

Nice to see that personal vendettas are ruining decentralization for us all.

We as a society really don't deserve anything anymore.

Jambler isn't decentralized though. They don't use that term either on their homepage or FAQ.

hugeblack

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@theymos I think that if Jambler partners are the ones who receive deposits and withdrawals, bear full responsibility for clients’ funds, and Jambler is the one who provides liquidity and technical support, then it should be allowed. What do you think?

Jambler provides a privacy feature and there are not many privacy services that are advertised here with high-quality posters, so giving them another chance will be beneficial for all.

Quote from: AB de Royse777 on April 13, 2024, 03:53:31 PM

But today after reading the post, we decided to share it with theymos.

There was an ongoing discussion about that topic so I don't know why you shared it with admin. The discussion started from here^[1] and its goal was to improve the service, not attack it.

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5491818

cryptofrka

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Nice to see that personal vendettas are ruining decentralization for us all.

We as a society really don't deserve anything anymore.

cryptosize

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inb4 XMR ban (built-in mixer) Grin

icopress

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Quote from: AB de Royse777 on April 13, 2024, 03:53:31 PM

It's fair now [...] we decided to share it with theymos.

Your interpretation and motives are clear to me. But do not confuse a sense of justice with hidden envy or anger.

Btw, do you still tell your clients that you have 65 positive feedbacks?

Quote

AB de Royse777

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Quote from: mrust_mobile on April 13, 2024, 03:31:16 PM

There goes another business into the warm arms of altcointalk.

It's fair now. The community was misguided to believe that they are not a mixer. Many members knew about it but it was not discussed publicly. Even long time ago I and another highly reputed manager talked about it but decided to let it go. I did not want to be insulted and be trolled in case theymos had a different thinking that he has no problem with mixer working in different condition. But today after reading the post, we decided to share it with theymos.

We still have a long way to go to realize the original affect of the mixer ban from Bitcointalk. Right now we already know when a mixer act specious, it takes longer time to learn about it. In the recent time it happened with Yo!Mix. I learned about it after a few weeks while I was the one who was managing their signature campaign before mixers were ban on the forum.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: theymos on April 13, 2024, 02:58:29 PM

Jambler "has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property"

Strictly speaking, it doesn't. Jambler doesn't act as a mixer, in and of itself. For partners, yes, it takes property, and yes it might return roughly the same plus a profit, but it nowhere says that it improves their privacy. The point of being a partner is to earn profit.

I could go on, but I don't think it matters, because it seems that you've made your choice. You could slightly change the criteria in the OP and it'd be rightly considered a mixer. You can't beat the admin.

mrust_mobile

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There goes another business into the warm arms of altcointalk.

theymos

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Previously, I was under the impression that Jambler was merely a software or platform provider, like Wordpress or AWS. But after reviewing it more closely, it meets the definition of a mixer as written. My mind was especially changed when I saw this diagram from their website:

The diagram clearly shows that Jambler is the actual mixer. They issue the "letters of guarantee", they send the BTC directly to the final customer, etc. The partners are just lightweight proxies in front of the true mixer, which is Jambler. Jambler "has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property", and it meets the other two criteria, so it's a mixer.

(Maybe you could make the case that Jambler's actual customers are its partners instead of the final end-users, but even in that case Jambler is acting as a mixer for its partners. Jambler is the one doing the mixing. So it's still a mixer in either case.)

Since I had previously ruled that Jambler did not meet the definition of a mixer, and I've now changed my mind, there will be a short grace period: Jambler will be wordfiltered (and otherwise treated as a mixer) starting on April 22.

As with other banned mixers, please do not interpret this as a moral judgement. I'm not saying that Jambler is or is not bad.

m2017

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Quote from: uchegod-21 on February 10, 2024, 10:24:06 AM

Privacy coins do not promote in the forum, so they have no direct link to the forum.

If we assume that the presence of an ANN topic on a forum dedicated to a confidential coin is not promotion, then it is impossible to deny the presence of links to the confidential coin project.
[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - almost every second line is a direct link from the forum.

I would not like this to become the beginning of a new wave of banning all information about confidential coins on the forum.

Now there is such a trend of denial of confidential coins everywhere.

NotATether

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Quote from: uchegod-21 on February 10, 2024, 10:24:06 AM

I think theymos is trying to avoid many things altogether, such as; let this forum not be the next place of thought after dark web. But how long would this be avoided, I don't actually know.

I consider "dark web" to consist of stuff only accessible through Tor.

So I think a better comparison would be to the "shadow internet" - pirate streams, libgen, public trackers, etc.

uchegod-21

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Quote from: shield132 on February 07, 2024, 04:19:55 PM

Quote from: mindrust on February 06, 2024, 07:34:51 AM

Binance just announced they are delisting privacy coins included but not limited to, XMR and Zcash.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277

If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.

We are slowly getting cornered.

The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.

How can theymos ban privacy coins even if the regulators take action against them? Bitcointalk doesn't accept XMR or Zcash deposits as well as doesn't offer you XMR or Zcash trading. If regulators ban privacy coins, we won't be able to advertise services that offer exchanges of privacy coins. Discussion about privacy coins will be allowed unless someone starts promoting their usage or offers coin exchange. Why do I say this? Because it will be as simple as it is, drugs are prohibited, banned and illegal but discussion about them is accepted on as famous social networks as Reddit is.

Mixers are quite different from privacy coins. Privacy coins do not promote in the forum, so they have no direct link to the forum. Even exchanges that houses privacy coins do not even have problems when privacy coins are banned. The only thing they are expected to do is to delist the particular privacy coin.

I think theymos is trying to avoid many things altogether, such as; let this forum not be the next place of thought after dark web. But how long would this be avoided, I don't actually know.

JollyGood

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There is a huge lobbying movement in the US which is pushing the agenda forward on matters that are beneficial to those that donate to senators. If someone gave a bundle of cash as a bribe to a senator to ask questions in congress or put forward their agenda it might be considered illegal but if it is a legal declared donation and then the very same thing happen it is acceptable and legally allowed. Strange.

In the case of banks and other big businesses including fossil fuel benefactors, they have a massive lobbying machine behind them and many in congress benefit from their donations.

Quote from: Synchronice on February 09, 2024, 01:02:46 PM

Quote from: Saisher on February 08, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Mixers are banned because criminals are using them so far we have not heard the news that privacy coins are being used to launder money because privacy coins lacks liquidity, they are not as liquid as Bitcoin, and criminals mainly use Bitcoin as and platform where they can conceal their identity.

If anything, it makes more sense to say that privacy coins are used for money laundering rather than bitcoin mixers are used for it. There are many articles that talk about Monero and money laundering but you hear mostly Bitcoin because it's a mainstream currency and media will attract attention with talking more about Bitcoin.
By the way, criminals not only launder money via mixers but via banks too. JP Morgan is the best destination for money laundering but no one bans them or talks about them.

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Quote from: Saisher on February 08, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Mixers are banned because criminals are using them so far we have not heard the news that privacy coins are being used to launder money because privacy coins lacks liquidity, they are not as liquid as Bitcoin, and criminals mainly use Bitcoin as and platform where they can conceal their identity.

If anything, it makes more sense to say that privacy coins are used for money laundering rather than bitcoin mixers are used for it. There are many articles that talk about Monero and money laundering but you hear mostly Bitcoin because it's a mainstream currency and media will attract attention with talking more about Bitcoin.
By the way, criminals not only launder money via mixers but via banks too. JP Morgan is the best destination for money laundering but no one bans them or talks about them.

Quote from: Saisher on February 08, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

We are just speculating, that the mixer ban hopefully is the last platform that will be banned here and I don't think its the end of the forum if ever privacy coins will be banned here, the forum is not a platform or project reliant this is a Bitcoin discussion platform.

Probably, seeing Monero and other privacy coin related services getting banned on this forum is the last thing that's about to happen. At the moment we are safe and there is no reason for further bans. Discussion is allowed, so, that's one of the most significant part that matters.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Saisher on February 08, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Mixers are banned because criminals are using them

Criminals are also using banks, fiat currencies, and everything else like the rest of the people.... so according to you everything should be banned Tongue

In fact biggest thing that is used for money laundering is WAR and we can see non-stop wars popping up all the time around the world, that means sending big amounts of money.
Politicians in charge are much worse than any criminals they call out, like unknown hackers and terrorist that conveniently always show up when they are needed.

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Quote from: Saisher on February 08, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

so far we have not heard the news that privacy coins are being used to launder money

That's the dumbest thing I've read today. Of course privacy coins are being used by criminals, just like anything else in life is used by criminals. Cars, internet, delivery services, you name it, and it's used by criminals. But we're not banning cars, internet and delivery services because they also have legitimate uses.

The phrase "money laundering" is often used incorrectly when it comes to mixers. The correct word would be "obfuscating", which is at most a small part of laundering. Or just for privacy which is a human right and not nefarious at all.
To launder money, you'll need a car wash in Albuquerque. Which we're not banning either.

Saisher

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Quote from: mindrust on February 06, 2024, 07:34:51 AM

Binance just announced they are delisting privacy coins included but not limited to, XMR and Zcash.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277

If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.

We are slowly getting cornered.

The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.

Mixers are banned because criminals are using them so far we have not heard the news that privacy coins are being used to launder money because privacy coins lacks liquidity, they are not as liquid as Bitcoin, and criminals mainly use Bitcoin as and platform where they can conceal their identity.

We are just speculating, that the mixer ban hopefully is the last platform that will be banned here and I don't think its the end of the forum if ever privacy coins will be banned here, the forum is not a platform or project reliant this is a Bitcoin discussion platform.

Bitcoadvice

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Quote from: examplens on February 07, 2024, 02:56:44 PM

Quote from: Bitcoadvice on February 07, 2024, 09:46:28 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on February 07, 2024, 04:40:00 AM

Quote from: Bitcoadvice on February 06, 2024, 01:35:50 PM

This change has caused some issues, such as identifying and reporting phishing mixer websites that use a portion of the real mixer domain name in their phishing domain name.

What's the point in knowing the exact phishing domain name? Just watch out, even if it's not on a list of phishing domains, it can still be a new one. Users now have to rely on other sources than Bitcointalk to find the real sites.

As a rule of thumb: if you can post the mixer's URL, chances are it's a phishing site. But being word filtered still doesn't guarantee the site is real.

Knowing the exact phishing domain name can be very useful for people or victims to research a specific website that might be phishing. They can find more details and references about it, such as on this forum.

For example, they can find my thread and learn that a specific website domain is a scam and a phishing website. By conducting research, they can avoid falling victim to a specific phishing domain, which they might have wanted to use.

For a skilled scammer, creating a fake site is just a few hours of work, with $20 for a domain and hosting, the phishing site is online very quickly. I don't know how it is possible to collect information about all such sites, I guess we don't even know about half of them. What if there is a new page that is not yet on the blacklist?

As far as I know, there are currently around 15 "legitimate" mixers (maybe some more that I haven't heard of yet), while at the same time, I saw lists of phishing mixer sites with over 100 domains. Isn't it easier to remember those 15 pages or at least a couple of listing pages that only collect data from legal mixer services?
The most important thing should be that people are educated enough to recognize whether the site is original or fake.

Based on my research, the phishing domains that are highly ranked in search engines have been active online for months or even years. Upon checking the WhoIS information of these specific domains, it was found that the phishing websites that generate significant traffic are likely created by a single individual. These websites also pose the most risk to potential victims who are seeking such services. This risk is discussed in my thread on cryptocurrency mixer phishing scams here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/scam-fake-cryptocurrency-mixer-phishing-network-5478625

It is possible that individuals may be tempted to use the best-ranked or longest-active phishing websites, assuming they are legitimate. However, my thread highlights the deceptive nature of these websites, revealing them as scams. Many newcomers to this field may struggle to differentiate between legitimate and fraudulent mixers. In light of this, I believe my efforts to identify and expose fake mixers, especially the top-ranked phishing websites that attract the most traffic, are crucial in protecting people from falling victim to scams.

Topic: Mixers to be banned - page 7. (Read 23006 times)