Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 145.

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Quote from: alegotardo on May 04, 2023, 08:40:56 PM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 04, 2023, 05:41:01 PM

It's sad to be a Ferrari fan currently. You can see how Leclerc and Sainz has been putting their all but unfortunately, their car is really underpowered compared to Red Bull's. Only if they can come closer in the straights, but they're having that engine problem the whole season. The only way you can see Leclerc and Sainz in the podium is when something extremely unlucky happens, and that rarely happens with how well Red Bull's car performs. It will be a hard feat, but certainly not impossible as long as they make some much needed updates on the cars.

Ferrari will soon bring updates to the SF-23, and I hope this brings some significant improvement to their cars. But for now, after a bad start to the season, only such "setup adjustments" could try to improve something in the race.
If I'm not mistaken, these updates can be applied as early as the Miami GP.
Will it have a positive result?

The original SF-23 was already coveted by many Ferrari enthusiasts, but it turned out to be far below the expected performance compared to the RedBull.

We are already now in the race weekend as it is Friday.Ferrari showed some improved performance in Baku compared to themselves but not much regarding Redbull pace as Redbull overtook Leclerc even without DRS at all in the big straight in this last week.They need desperately such massive upgrades in order to have a chance to start fighting back at Redbull but honestly I am not that optimistic as these upgrades will bring that much needed performance to beat Redbull because Redbull works to upgrade their car too.

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Quote from: dothebeats on May 04, 2023, 05:41:01 PM

It's sad to be a Ferrari fan currently. You can see how Leclerc and Sainz has been putting their all but unfortunately, their car is really underpowered compared to Red Bull's. Only if they can come closer in the straights, but they're having that engine problem the whole season. The only way you can see Leclerc and Sainz in the podium is when something extremely unlucky happens, and that rarely happens with how well Red Bull's car performs. It will be a hard feat, but certainly not impossible as long as they make some much needed updates on the cars.

Ferrari will soon bring updates to the SF-23, and I hope this brings some significant improvement to their cars. But for now, after a bad start to the season, only such "setup adjustments" could try to improve something in the race.
If I'm not mistaken, these updates can be applied as early as the Miami GP.
Will it have a positive result?

The original SF-23 was already coveted by many Ferrari enthusiasts, but it turned out to be far below the expected performance compared to the RedBull.

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Quote from: retreat on May 04, 2023, 02:50:35 AM

Quote from: Distraction on May 02, 2023, 03:20:16 PM

-snip-

Ferrari need to bring a huge update package to their car to make their drivers be able to compete for wins. Otherwise they will continue to watch Verstappen and Perez from a long distance in every race.
-snip-

They will see, because so far Ferrari have not been able to conclusively deliver maximum performance and moreover they have not solved the problem with their tires and their main engine. Even to have to get into the top five, Lecrec and Sainz had to struggle to race their car and it seems that is their best performance. So my expectations for Ferrari to win this season and the next few seasons are not that high.

It's sad to be a Ferrari fan currently. You can see how Leclerc and Sainz has been putting their all but unfortunately, their car is really underpowered compared to Red Bull's. Only if they can come closer in the straights, but they're having that engine problem the whole season. The only way you can see Leclerc and Sainz in the podium is when something extremely unlucky happens, and that rarely happens with how well Red Bull's car performs. It will be a hard feat, but certainly not impossible as long as they make some much needed updates on the cars.

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Quote from: Koal-84 on May 04, 2023, 11:48:45 AM

Ferrari brings updates again? Have you also heard in which direction the updates will be? On a fast lap at the slower circuits they are now back in front, but the top speed is still missing and for a full race distance they are still too slow. McLaren also need the updates urgently, they have been very disappointing this season.

The weather looks a bit stable except for the race day.

Nope, but they are speaking a lot of these updates.
In the today interview Leclerc spoken again about the big update and he said "we don't know yet if we can fight with them(Redbull)"

So I guess he is expecting a big big-time increase in performance or he could use other words.

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At the test in Jerez, Honda tested a chassis from the small German manufacturer Kalex for the first time. It is actually shameful for a formerly very successful Japanese manufacturer Honda to let a small foreign company develop and produce the chassis in order to be able to compete again.

https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2023/05/04/jerez-test-tech-hrc-s-kalex-chassis-new-aero-more/454425

Other manufacturers also tested new things in Jerez, more details in the article.

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vasseur-miami-gp-the-start-of-ferrari-f1-upgrade-push/10464016/

They don't mention what kind of upgrades these will be for Ferrari and McLaren in the Miami GP. However it looks like we can see some increase in the current pace of their cars here. They had better make some improvement indeed. Because for example Ferrari's car is still far from being competitive against Red Bull's right now. If they don't make progress in this GP as well then not much thing would change about its result as well.

McLaren drivers have also been facing problems because of the car's being quite slow. McLaren still can't keep up with their rivals so they need this kind of upgrades more often to have a chance to get closer to them at least. Norris must be really disappointed about this because you know he is a really competitive driver. He can do amazing things with a faster car. It is Piastri's first season around here as well so I wonder how quick he can adapt to Formula 1 world too.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on May 03, 2023, 05:25:31 PM

Ferrari and Mclaren are expected to have new things to test in MIAMI.

About the weather, the heavy raid is expected even if it is hot as someone above me said.

Ferrari brings updates again? Have you also heard in which direction the updates will be? On a fast lap at the slower circuits they are now back in front, but the top speed is still missing and for a full race distance they are still too slow. McLaren also need the updates urgently, they have been very disappointing this season.

The weather looks a bit stable except for the race day.

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Quote from: Distraction on May 02, 2023, 03:20:16 PM

-snip-

Ferrari need to bring a huge update package to their car to make their drivers be able to compete for wins. Otherwise they will continue to watch Verstappen and Perez from a long distance in every race.
-snip-

They will see, because so far Ferrari have not been able to conclusively deliver maximum performance and moreover they have not solved the problem with their tires and their main engine. Even to have to get into the top five, Lecrec and Sainz had to struggle to race their car and it seems that is their best performance. So my expectations for Ferrari to win this season and the next few seasons are not that high.

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Ferrari and Mclaren are expected to have new things to test in MIAMI.

About the weather, the heavy raid is expected even if it is hot as someone above me said.

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By the way we have another race weekend ahead of us in Miami. Temperatures would be really high here I guess so the teams had better be well-prepared for the track conditions. I think the difference between Red Bull and Ferrari can be even bigger here. Because Ferrari still can't do a very good job with tyre saving in harder conditions. Red Bull are like the opposite of them and they are actually the best team about that. I don't feel like we will see any other driver from a different team can make difficulties for either Verstappen or Perez here.

Perez is really dedicated right now so I will be expecting him to fight hard against Verstappen in this race also. If he can capture an advantage like he got in the Azerbaijan GP then he can even take the lead in the championship from Verstappen by the end of this race.

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Quote from: Distraction on May 02, 2023, 03:20:16 PM

I have seen a video explaining the current difference between Ferrari and Red Bull cars this season. It is explained like Red Bull have a car which is faster than their opponent at fast turns. But it is the opposite at slow ones. The Azerbaijan GP track was used as a reference to this but it is the case for the general of the season actually. Moreover Red Bull still can make up for their slow side by being faster than Ferrari on straights.

Ferrari need to bring a huge update package to their car to make their drivers be able to compete for wins. Otherwise they will continue to watch Verstappen and Perez from a long distance in every race. Leclerc was so desperate in the last race for example. Even after safety car Leclerc couldn't benefit from the advantage for a long time. This must be really annoying for him as Ferrari still can't make a competitive car for winning championships.

It looks like the difference is huge enough that Charles failed to keep them at bay, and even when he was passed due to DRS difference, he wasn't capable of catching up to them back again with DRS, the difference is huge. Think about it this way, if you have drs and faster at straights, drs is at straights anyway, so you pass the other teams a lot easier, the difference becomes as much as 20-30 km per hour, but when you are faster and someone coming behind you with drs, the difference is 8-12 km per hour instead of 20-30.

This is why when it comes to red bull passing others, they are much faster and pass them much easier, but when it comes to defending, since they are faster, they can still defend better as well and not get caught up. Also lets not forget that their tire saving methods are better, so they can do laps consistently for longer.

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I have seen a video explaining the current difference between Ferrari and Red Bull cars this season. It is explained like Red Bull have a car which is faster than their opponent at fast turns. But it is the opposite at slow ones. The Azerbaijan GP track was used as a reference to this but it is the case for the general of the season actually. Moreover Red Bull still can make up for their slow side by being faster than Ferrari on straights.

Ferrari need to bring a huge update package to their car to make their drivers be able to compete for wins. Otherwise they will continue to watch Verstappen and Perez from a long distance in every race. Leclerc was so desperate in the last race for example. Even after safety car Leclerc couldn't benefit from the advantage for a long time. This must be really annoying for him as Ferrari still can't make a competitive car for winning championships.

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Quote from: FanEagle on May 02, 2023, 03:35:50 AM

That also depends on the league points situation as well and how the race is going. When you have a dominant enough car that you are 1-2, then it doesn't matter who is the 1-2 in that situation and you will not be risked, you will be kept going as much as it can with the same 1-2 without caring about the leader.

Of course, it depends a lot on the actually stand in the championship, but does RedBull want to go as far as they did with Hamilton vs Rosberg? For us spectators it would be very, very good, it seems at the moment that no other team could be a threat to RedBull for the whole season, I don't think so?
RedBull is still too dominant at the moment and in contrast to last season, the RedBull is also reliable.

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Quote from: tokeweed on May 02, 2023, 07:52:37 AM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on April 30, 2023, 04:03:01 PM

The question now should be:
can Perez fight for the title against Max until the end of the season?

I don't think the other team can gain 1 second per lap in races to compete with them.

That would be something imho. And it would show how good really Verstappen is and all the argument that it's just because of the car will come to a close. It's pretty much the same point I was making about Vettel before during his RBR days. If Vettel was a bad driver and just depended on the car then why can't Webber, who was a decent F1 driver himself, couldn't out race Vettel and make the competition between them close?

Anyway, it's starting to show that Perez might have other plans and wouldn't just play second fiddle. The genius of Horner is he already got Perez's replacement ready... Ricciardo.

@tokeweed I feel that Perez will stretch Max till the very final race, and it’ll be an epic rivalry between these two and while I feel that Max will prevail in the end but my gut say's that in the end Perez will stun Max, so be careful with your bets on either of them because it’s very difficult to pick a winner between these two. Also it’s pertinent to note that Hamilton who once used to be in the top 2 or top 3 drivers standing has fallen down from the top 3 spot and that’s another sign that he should call it quits and gracefully retire.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on April 30, 2023, 04:03:01 PM

The question now should be:
can Perez fight for the title against Max until the end of the season?

I don't think the other team can gain 1 second per lap in races to compete with them.

That would be something imho. And it would show how good really Verstappen is and all the argument that it's just because of the car will come to a close. It's pretty much the same point I was making about Vettel before during his RBR days. If Vettel was a bad driver and just depended on the car then why can't Webber, who was a decent F1 driver himself, couldn't out race Vettel and make the competition between them close?

Anyway, it's starting to show that Perez might have other plans and wouldn't just play second fiddle. The genius of Horner is he already got Perez's replacement ready... Ricciardo.

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Quote from: Koal-84 on May 01, 2023, 12:43:44 AM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on April 30, 2023, 04:03:01 PM

The question now should be:
can Perez fight for the title against Max until the end of the season?

The question will not be whether Perez can fight for the title, but is Perez allowed to fight for the title at all from the team or does Verstappen at RedBull have too much influence in the meantime? Normally there has rarely been a team order at RedBull, but you never know.

In any case, it doesn't look like RedBull can really threaten the other teams in the long term

That also depends on the league points situation as well and how the race is going. When you have a dominant enough car that you are 1-2, then it doesn't matter who is the 1-2 in that situation and you will not be risked, you will be kept going as much as it can with the same 1-2 without caring about the leader.

However, Perez is used when they need him to do something to get a win, right now this season so far they didn't need something like that, they didn't need a situation where Perez needed to do something extra to get them the win, they have done well enough that Max and Perez ended up great so far. This means that we need to see the team do well, and they won't meddle with the positions, but if other cars get better, they will start to ask Perez to defend.

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Quote from: swogerino on April 30, 2023, 02:33:49 PM

-snip-

I am afraid you will have to wait quite a lot as the last time Ferrari was unbeatable is since the distant time of the Kaizer Michael Schumacher at the 2000-s.From 2005 and on Ferrari has just manage to win a title with Kimmi Raikkonen in 2007 and near won it in 2008 but they were far from unbeatable and they even had big Champions on board of their car like S.Vettel and F.Alonso which compared to the actual drivers that they have were much but much better and they even won races when Ferrari clearly was not the best car at the grid.

We all hope to see some car beat Redbull but most likely this season for me is already over and it will continue to be dominated by Redbull.

Fairly agree with what you said, it will take a long time for Ferrari to beat Red Bull in terms of drivers and car performance. Even Vasseur himself has admitted that it will be very difficult for them to be the best in this season and the next few seasons, because there is still a lot of work that needs to be done and approaches taken to improve driver performance.

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Quote from: judas on April 30, 2023, 11:25:39 AM

I have really missed Formula 1 after that long break. Maybe the Azerbaijan GP wasn't as fun as the Australian GP but I still enjoyed it in some parts especially. Seeing safety car in the race was nice as it made things more interesting. Because it was like safety car changed the fate of the race indeed. Perez saw a good chance and benefited from it nicely. Verstappen must be very unsatisfied with pitting right before safety car entered.

Verstappen and Perez had problems at Turn 15 quite many times. This turn is quite problematic for all the drivers on the grid actually. But these two drivers didn't crash into the wall at least. Russell's pitting before the end of the race to have the fastest lap was worth it. Verstappen was already angry at Russell due to his hitting his car from the side in the sprint race. Losing the fastest lap to him must also be annoying for Verstappen. Grin

Finally Leclerc was on podium and this is a start for him and Ferrari at least. Let's see if we would see consistency from now on.

I saw a lot of people were saying they missed F1 too and it was good to watch a new race but I think it was rather a boring one. Already red bull is unbeatable, on top of that, hiding tires throughout the race made the race even more boring. The fastest lap fight in the last laps was seriously weird. If your tires have performance, they should have raced properly. Even if the result did not change, we would see at least 1-2 actions.

Quote from: jakdanyel on April 30, 2023, 05:21:50 PM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on April 30, 2023, 04:03:01 PM

The question now should be:
can Perez fight for the title against Max until the end of the season?

I don't think the other team can gain 1 second per lap in races to compete with them.

The gap is only six points for now and it is normal to think about this as a result. However I'm not sure whether Perez can be that much consistent throughout the season. Because he tends to make more mistakes than Verstappen normally. If he doesn't work hard regularly for keeping this level then I think Verstappen will pull away from him at some point this season.

Perez seemed pretty decisive about competing hard against Verstappen in this season according to his statement before the season started. Because you know there was some problem between these drivers last season. Perez couldn't see the same help he does for Verstappen. Instead Verstappen even managed to make him annoyed by making an interesting statement after that. Maybe this ambition can help Perez stay in the title fight for a longer time.

He is the driver who will never be Redbull's Rosberg. yes, all the priority of redbull is verstappen of course, but let's talk straight, perez is never a driver like Max. So, if redbull treats both drivers equally, perez is not someone who can push Max. Of course, perez must be given his due.

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Quote from: Velvet78 on May 01, 2023, 04:00:03 AM

Honestly it would be very lovely to see a title competition in this season. Perez has been doing pretty well against Verstappen so far. This high level of competition reminds me of the one between Hamilton and Rosberg. Grin

I wonder whether Perez can be like the new Rosberg for Verstappen this season. He is quite determined to get solid results this time.

While Ferrari are still trailing behind I don't see much chance for Leclerc to keep up with these two. Ferrari need to be more convincing than this. Instead Alonso has a bigger potential to be in a title competition for a while.

It all depends on how focused Perez will be,Verstappen by nature is a much more aggressive driver while the driving style of Perez is more fluent,more calm and in tracks like Azerbaijan with a lot of slow corners he did much better than Verstappen and won the race.Of course this year we have to be happy with what both Redbull drivers will be giving us in term of spectacle and competition as we cannot really expect something else from the other teams as we saw in this track that they had no chance of competing with Redbull.

If we will see a competition between the Redbull drivers depends only on how consistent Perez will be throughout the season and how lucky he will be.

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Honestly it would be very lovely to see a title competition in this season. Perez has been doing pretty well against Verstappen so far. This high level of competition reminds me of the one between Hamilton and Rosberg. Grin

I wonder whether Perez can be like the new Rosberg for Verstappen this season. He is quite determined to get solid results this time.

While Ferrari are still trailing behind I don't see much chance for Leclerc to keep up with these two. Ferrari need to be more convincing than this. Instead Alonso has a bigger potential to be in a title competition for a while.

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