[NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread - page 443.

Stadtfeger

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Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 06:40:57 AM

Quote from: ekoja on February 06, 2014, 06:28:57 AM

I think nem gains more and more interests now. I'm happy aboutn the great progress NEM have made. Thanks for you great effort.

However, I wrote just to express a bit worry that there seems to be some unfair multi buyin. Not 3-5 stakes are bought by one person. >20 or evern > 100 stakes have been bought by someone. I am in a Chinese QQ group on nxt discussion. I heard from someone in the group saying that one of his friend bought 150 NEM stakes and himself owned 20 stakes. I'm shocked by this news. I thought there must be sth wrong. I agree that more paid, more gain. However, it goes too far from the fair purpose of NEM. If 3000 stakes will be sold, 150 means 5% of total amount. That comes to the case of NXT! Anyone holding greater than 10 stakes may make fairness of NEM UNFAIRNESS.

I know that it's not easy to prevent multibuyin. However, some effort must be taken. e.g. check the transcation history. you can see :
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=3231774856984709013&offset=1&filter=1
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=6635869272840226493
And of course, people can buy with their multi NXT accounts.
And also need check the brand new IDs with same IPs.

About this account http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=3231774856984709013&offset=1&filter=1

you should thank him because He is actually donating a lot to NEM becasue

"Counter sockpuppet measure: Sending address could be checked and if there were already two payments made to NEM's addresses before, then the third payment would be considered a donation"

we did not have time to check everything thoroughly yet but Counter sockpuppet measure will apply in this case.

This user also has several transactions of a made to another account (which it does not really stand so) he has as you can see several of his millions of coins accounnts made and transferred one of which always money to NEM for example.

utopianfuture

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Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 11:24:37 AM

I think we can scratch the scale in the logo

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-ntm-negotium-project-451306

P-O-W coin. No care. We are building proof-of-stake coin network.

utopianfuture

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Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 11:14:20 AM

Quote from: ashapasa on February 06, 2014, 10:09:30 AM

veteran poster labeling every new member "fraudster" need to cool it. I like NEM, i have asked my friends to join NEM, they paid for it with real money, how can we be sure NEM itself is not a scam?

This tread is more than 40 pages long and half of it is filled with people complaining about other peoples stake. Nem wants to attract new people , why would a newbie join NEM if all you so called "veterans" label us newbies "fraudster".

NEM has a very small chance of succeeding in this already flooded cryptomarket , we are all taking a punt and some have gambled more than others, that does not mean they are frauds. A lot of .04 or .05 btc will add up.

If we truly want NEM to succeed, we need to be more welcoming. Someone can just start a new coin following the same initial distribution model ( future coin Angry

) then we are left with just another cheap crypto if even that.

Veterans I don't mean to offend but rather than bickering lets welcome everyone( we need all the help we can get) and think of ways to make NEM a better coin. We need a market place where all NEM stake holders should initially put at least one tangible stuff for sale priced solely in NEM coin. If we can achieve that,we would have managed to outpace almost all these other crypto coins.

It's not about the newbies - I'm one myself. It's about people that try to get more than 2 stakes. It's supposed to be even - everyone should get the same amount of NEM.

I think i have to do a bit of hype containment here because it could be bad publicity to NEM that we say we do things we cannot back up. It is not my goal that everyone should get the same amount of NEM. Several main developers would likely to get more than 10 dev stakes so it is apparently contradictory to say we promote "everyone has the same stakes". NEM's main goal on distribution front is to spread NEM as widely and equally as possible and to build a huge user base from the start. that's what i mean when i wrote "NEM symbolizes a great sense of fairness and egalitarianism". To do that we have a couple of measures:

1. 1 account/ 1 stake rule
2. checking sending address aka counter sockpuppet measure
3. taint analyses to find big multi-accters

The equal shares to all (account) is a nice by product slogan of rule 1 but don't confuse that with we try to distribute NEM to every single person equally. I am still proud of what we have in distribution front as it is unparalleled so far compared to other cryptos.

If someone wants to build a more extreme version of equality coin, I would welcome that too. It is not the envy game we are playing here

No envy - NEM goes forward.

patmast3r

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I think we can scratch the scale in the logo

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-ntm-negotium-project-451306

utopianfuture

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Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 11:15:37 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:58:19 AM

Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:44:01 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:39:11 AM

Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:34:00 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:30:43 AM

Later taint analyses will be used to reduce further the amount of big NEM stake holders.
These are best efforts to spread NEM widely and evenly to a huge user base and it is already better than the best effort to date: counter-party protocol.

Well then plz consider my last to posts in you taint analysis as i think it's a big fish among the multiaccs.

Take a note of these cases as we will use that in a public auditing after the fund raising is over. But I expect the auditing is the community's effort not mine - we can go as far as the community wants to go. After all the development fund belongs to NEM's community and to be used by the developers/ community to build the crypto we love.

Well I'm willing to search that blockchain for hours. If we find a handfull other people that are willing to as well we should find most of the bigger multi accs.

Kooream have been doing it for a few days. There are two others PM-ing me with solid cases as well. Everyone can do it given that the hashes, account names and the blockchain are public information. I would like to gather all the cases and make them public after the fundraising is over in a public auditing period. I would use mindmap to link wallet addresses/ account names together in visually attractive form (that's my suggestions)

Alright do you need me to PM you those two cases again as well or only the ones I find from now on ?

Let's make all public after the fund raising is over. The records are still there, aren't they. But I will only refund big multi- accounter >10 stakes.

patmast3r

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Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:58:19 AM

Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:44:01 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:39:11 AM

Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:34:00 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:30:43 AM

Later taint analyses will be used to reduce further the amount of big NEM stake holders.
These are best efforts to spread NEM widely and evenly to a huge user base and it is already better than the best effort to date: counter-party protocol.

Well then plz consider my last to posts in you taint analysis as i think it's a big fish among the multiaccs.

Take a note of these cases as we will use that in a public auditing after the fund raising is over. But I expect the auditing is the community's effort not mine - we can go as far as the community wants to go. After all the development fund belongs to NEM's community and to be used by the developers/ community to build the crypto we love.

Well I'm willing to search that blockchain for hours. If we find a handfull other people that are willing to as well we should find most of the bigger multi accs.

Kooream have been doing it for a few days. There are two others PM-ing me with solid cases as well. Everyone can do it given that the hashes, account names and the blockchain are public information. I would like to gather all the cases and make them public after the fundraising is over in a public auditing period. I would use mindmap to link wallet addresses/ account names together in visually attractive form (that's my suggestions)

Alright do you need me to PM you those two cases again as well or only the ones I find from now on ?

patmast3r

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Activity: 980

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Quote from: ashapasa on February 06, 2014, 10:09:30 AM

veteran poster labeling every new member "fraudster" need to cool it. I like NEM, i have asked my friends to join NEM, they paid for it with real money, how can we be sure NEM itself is not a scam?

This tread is more than 40 pages long and half of it is filled with people complaining about other peoples stake. Nem wants to attract new people , why would a newbie join NEM if all you so called "veterans" label us newbies "fraudster".

NEM has a very small chance of succeeding in this already flooded cryptomarket , we are all taking a punt and some have gambled more than others, that does not mean they are frauds. A lot of .04 or .05 btc will add up.

If we truly want NEM to succeed, we need to be more welcoming. Someone can just start a new coin following the same initial distribution model ( future coin Angry

) then we are left with just another cheap crypto if even that.

Veterans I don't mean to offend but rather than bickering lets welcome everyone( we need all the help we can get) and think of ways to make NEM a better coin. We need a market place where all NEM stake holders should initially put at least one tangible stuff for sale priced solely in NEM coin. If we can achieve that,we would have managed to outpace almost all these other crypto coins.

It's not about the newbies - I'm one myself. It's about people that try to get more than 2 stakes. It's supposed to be even - everyone should get the same amount of NEM.

utopianfuture

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Merit: 268

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Quote from: ashapasa on February 06, 2014, 10:09:30 AM

veteran poster labeling every new member "fraudster" need to cool it. I like NEM, i have asked my friends to join NEM, they paid for it with real money, how can we be sure NEM itself is not a scam?

This tread is more than 40 pages long and half of it is filled with people complaining about other peoples stake. Nem wants to attract new people , why would a newbie join NEM if all you so called "veterans" label us newbies "fraudster".

NEM has a very small chance of succeeding in this already flooded cryptomarket , we are all taking a punt and some have gambled more than others, that does not mean they are frauds. A lot of .04 or .05 btc will add up.

If we truly want NEM to succeed, we need to be more welcoming. Someone can just start a new coin following the same initial distribution model ( future coin Angry

) then we are left with just another cheap crypto if even that.

Veterans I don't mean to offend but rather than bickering lets welcome everyone( we need all the help we can get) and think of ways to make NEM a better coin. We need a market place where all NEM stake holders should initially put at least one tangible stuff for sale priced solely in NEM coin. If we can achieve that,we would have managed to outpace almost all these other crypto coins.

Well I have a dream that NEM would be a huge unexpected success

But to do that I'd like to see NEM having more than just a provincial appeal. Otherwise we would face the same problem NXT facing right now; a new thing comes up and new people move there because generally people don't want to work so that some rich guys become richer. That type of thing happens in the open-source culture and we also have that issue unless we can build a huge-and inclusive user base right from the start.

It is still to be seen if this is the right strategy but as i see it it is only way to differentiate ourself socially. Technically we would be a super block-chain thanks to our developers, but we can't under-estimate the social aspect in this game.

ashapasa

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veteran poster labeling every new member "fraudster" need to cool it. I like NEM, i have asked my friends to join NEM, they paid for it with real money, how can we be sure NEM itself is not a scam?

This tread is more than 40 pages long and half of it is filled with people complaining about other peoples stake. Nem wants to attract new people , why would a newbie join NEM if all you so called "veterans" label us newbies "fraudster".

NEM has a very small chance of succeeding in this already flooded cryptomarket , we are all taking a punt and some have gambled more than others, that does not mean they are frauds. A lot of .04 or .05 btc will add up.

If we truly want NEM to succeed, we need to be more welcoming. Someone can just start a new coin following the same initial distribution model ( future coin Angry

) then we are left with just another cheap crypto if even that.

Veterans I don't mean to offend but rather than bickering lets welcome everyone( we need all the help we can get) and think of ways to make NEM a better coin. We need a market place where all NEM stake holders should initially put at least one tangible stuff for sale priced solely in NEM coin. If we can achieve that,we would have managed to outpace almost all these other crypto coins.

highscore

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Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:54:36 AM

Let's make a new update to the rule introducing Counter-multi-accouter measure and apply it after page 50. Change refund by donation instead.

It's your business. But I think it would be right.

utopianfuture

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Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:44:01 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:39:11 AM

Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:34:00 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:30:43 AM

Later taint analyses will be used to reduce further the amount of big NEM stake holders.
These are best efforts to spread NEM widely and evenly to a huge user base and it is already better than the best effort to date: counter-party protocol.

Well then plz consider my last to posts in you taint analysis as i think it's a big fish among the multiaccs.

Take a note of these cases as we will use that in a public auditing after the fund raising is over. But I expect the auditing is the community's effort not mine - we can go as far as the community wants to go. After all the development fund belongs to NEM's community and to be used by the developers/ community to build the crypto we love.

Well I'm willing to search that blockchain for hours. If we find a handfull other people that are willing to as well we should find most of the bigger multi accs.

Kooream have been doing it for a few days. There are two others PM-ing me with solid cases as well. Everyone can do it given that the hashes, account names and the blockchain are public information. I would like to gather all the cases and make them public after the fundraising is over in a public auditing period. I would use mindmap to link wallet addresses/ account names together in visually attractive form (that's my suggestions)

utopianfuture

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Quote from: highscore on February 06, 2014, 09:44:38 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:32:44 AM

Quote from: highscore on February 06, 2014, 09:23:17 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:09:44 AM

We will refund them later in the cases of big multi acc-ters.

return for what? let it be your fund

edit: remuneration for search "multi-acc-ter"

They send money in and if we don't take them then we send them back. Kooream has been working on some multi-accter cases for a while but I expect it is a community effort. The search will be as thorough as the community is willing to go

I can't understand WHY? That statement you encourage people to try to fool you, because the money can return, so people use multi acc.
PS I apologize if something I do not understand. My English is not perfect

Let's make a new update to the rule introducing Counter-multi-accouter measure and apply it after page 50. Change refund by donation instead.

highscore

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Activity: 286

Merit: 100

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:32:44 AM

Quote from: highscore on February 06, 2014, 09:23:17 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:09:44 AM

We will refund them later in the cases of big multi acc-ters.

return for what? let it be your fund

edit: remuneration for search "multi-acc-ter"

They send money in and if we don't take them then we send them back. Kooream has been working on some multi-accter cases for a while but I expect it is a community effort. The search will be as thorough as the community is willing to go

I can't understand WHY? That statement you encourage people to try to fool you, because the money can return, so people use multi acc.
PS I apologize if something I do not understand. My English is not perfect

patmast3r

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Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:39:11 AM

Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:34:00 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:30:43 AM

Later taint analyses will be used to reduce further the amount of big NEM stake holders.
These are best efforts to spread NEM widely and evenly to a huge user base and it is already better than the best effort to date: counter-party protocol.

Well then plz consider my last to posts in you taint analysis as i think it's a big fish among the multiaccs.

Take a note of these cases as we will use that in a public auditing after the fund raising is over. But I expect the auditing is the community's effort not mine - we can go as far as the community wants to go. After all the development fund belongs to NEM's community and to be used by the developers/ community to build the crypto we love.

Well I'm willing to search that blockchain for hours. If we find a handfull other people that are willing to as well we should find most of the bigger multi accs.

utopianfuture

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Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:34:00 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:30:43 AM

Later taint analyses will be used to reduce further the amount of big NEM stake holders.
These are best efforts to spread NEM widely and evenly to a huge user base and it is already better than the best effort to date: counter-party protocol.

Well then plz consider my last to posts in you taint analysis as i think it's a big fish among the multiaccs.

Take a note of these cases as we will use that in a public auditing after the fund raising is over. But I expect the auditing is the community's effort not mine - we can go as far as the community wants to go. After all the development fund belongs to NEM's community and to be used by the developers/ community to build the crypto we love.

patmast3r

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 1001

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:30:43 AM

Later taint analyses will be used to reduce further the amount of big NEM stake holders.
These are best efforts to spread NEM widely and evenly to a huge user base and it is already better than the best effort to date: counter-party protocol.

Well then plz consider my last to posts in you taint analysis as i think it's a big fish among the multiaccs.

utopianfuture

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Activity: 602

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Quote from: highscore on February 06, 2014, 09:23:17 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:09:44 AM

We will refund them later in the cases of big multi acc-ters.

return for what? let it be your fund

edit: remuneration for search "multi-acc-ter"

They send money in and if we don't take them then we send them back. Kooream has been working on some multi-accter cases for a while but I expect it is a community effort. The search will be as thorough as the community is willing to go

utopianfuture

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Activity: 602

Merit: 268

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Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:17:05 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:09:44 AM

Quote from: patmast3r on February 06, 2014, 09:04:50 AM

Am I seeing this correctly: https://blockchain.info/de/address/14BtZgJzUKrHrfz6XnQQAjU2ovN11dXfTX

this dude 14BtZgJzUKrHrfz6XnQQAjU2ovN11dXfTX

sent 0.0551 to each of these:

1FPQwEHXLFbCERbR6vVbYPgrQiZfXBBN8q 0.0551 BTC
1EMW1pZWcE6ZaPCjeQtYnwknb7F73zQ1AC 0.0551 BTC
132d7o2M26ds1W5BRBYUUNExq2HNNd49HE 0.0551 BTC

and then each of these payed for a stake:

https://blockchain.info/de/address/1FPQwEHXLFbCERbR6vVbYPgrQiZfXBBN8q
https://blockchain.info/de/address/1EMW1pZWcE6ZaPCjeQtYnwknb7F73zQ1AC
https://blockchain.info/de/address/132d7o2M26ds1W5BRBYUUNExq2HNNd49HE

fraudster or am I reading this wrong ?

Let's make a distinction between two terms:

"fraudster" : did not send money to NEM; tried to clone other's people hash or made up bogus hash to get in the lists

"multi-acc-ter: who did send money to NEM to be a part of NEM development fund; but he has multiple accounts doing that. These are not fraudster and as far as they send money to NEM then I would at least thank them for their trust. They also did not violate any pre-defined rules except the "unfairly accumulation" clause. We will refund them later in the cases of big multi acc-ters.

yeah i guess you could say that.
To me their both fraudsters as thy are trying to claim more stakes than is allowed for one person.

I think I found another one:

He send 0.0551 BTC to a load of adresses and then bought a stake with each of those:

https://blockchain.info/de/address/1Ae6YxNMeJWtaLCSzQQe7Pqfb2MFRVbHH2 (sending the 0.0551)

The first 4 (which arent the only ones) which all were used to buy stakes:

https://blockchain.info/de/address/1EauPVg35rFLScbpEujFCgvJHwoGzBBUhm
https://blockchain.info/de/address/19ukVnz1DNfHFAwYwKU9hkTb6iYaESUFhA
https://blockchain.info/de/address/19qBCvmyhLVVhRTjdnjZeDrMMRM13HTQCz
https://blockchain.info/de/address/1Cuoz1pPdG7bRxMf3cnb1su8jtvDpLJfg1

Looking at this I'm a little worried that we might have more multi-accs than expected.

Our goal is equal shares to all (accounts). And while I try to spread NEM widely and evenly, I don't really count real people in a forum or internet. As far as I understand I converse with patmast3r as one unique account. But it is possible that highscore is the mastermind behind patmast3r or even the same person with multiple personality.
Don't go that route because it would be too confusing.

The 1 account/ 1 stake rule is established to cause hassles for people to register many stakes. Anti-sock puppet measure is there for that purpose as well. And as far as I concern people can make many accounts as they want if they are willing to go though these hassles.
Later taint analyses will be used to reduce further the amount of big NEM stake holders.
These are best efforts to spread NEM widely and evenly to a huge user base and it is already better than the best effort to date: counter-party protocol.

highscore

full member

Activity: 286

Merit: 100

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:09:44 AM

We will refund them later in the cases of big multi acc-ters.

return for what? let it be your fund

edit: remuneration for search "multi-acc-ter"

highscore

full member

Activity: 286

Merit: 100

Quote from: utopianfuture on February 06, 2014, 09:09:44 AM

Let's make a distinction between two terms:

"fraudster" : did not send money to NEM; tried to clone other's people hash or made up bogus hash to get in the lists

"multi-acc-ter: who did send money to NEM to be a part of NEM development fund; but he has multiple accounts doing that. These are not fraudster and as far as they send money to NEM then I would at least thank them for their trust. They also did not violate any pre-defined rules except the "unfairly accumulation" clause. We will refund them later in the cases of big multi acc-ters.

okeey

Topic: [NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread - page 443. (Read 661525 times)