Topic: New Drama from BitcoinASIC - page 11. (Read 21843 times)

Really, if you honestly believed from my post that I was implying that any vendor forcefully made anyone order or that anyone ordered not of their own free will you are more ignorant than I thought.  I actually said "the community" that implies a group not an individual. All vendors decided to use full payment pre orders as the only method.  You all knew the market was big enough that enough people would be willing to take any option given them, greed blinds after all.  That's why you chose full payment pre-orders only, so don't come off with some high and mighty free will bull shit.

You seem to be good at diversion and sugar coating, to bad your comedy skills are so bad.

If you don't want people to take your inflammatory, false/misleading statements at face value, then say what you mean.  You have never been forced to order from any ASIC vendor.  You have always had the option to wait until the products were available for purchase and shipped to you.  Your entire premise is flawed, in so far as the fact that if you pre-ordered, you chose to do so of your own free will.  If the risk that you would be bearing is too much, then do not pre-order. There is absolutely zero requirement for you to do so, thus your statements are false.  You may not like it, true, but you are free not to participate.  Those that are willing to shoulder the risk and those that don't mind the situation will take your place... but there is nothing forcing you to participate at any level.

Yes, of course, attacking you... pointing out that your entire statement is false in a semi-humorous way is attacking you.  You're the only troll here, sir.

I agree for the most part.

Vendors catching up still IMO doesn't justify the risk shedding that is involved initially.
I understand the early adopters likely (or at least should have) done a risk reward analysis and decided for themselves, again I still don't agree with how the manufactures transfer risk from themselves to the consumer when I believe any risk they shed should have been shoulder by them.   I think those that took a risk had enough already without taking on additional risk that I think the manufacture should have shouldered.

BTW thank you for not attacking me (like someone who works for an ASIC vendor and some other random troll did) and trying to discuss this with me.  As a forum and BTC newb this stuff fascinates me and appreciate being corrected politely.

FTFY,

Feel free to ignore me.  

Lol, I actually don't know what to say to this.

That won't be the case once BFL catches up on their pre-orders.  They'll be looking at a turnaround time of a couple of days from order to shipping then - faster than Dell can build me and ship me a computer and certainly faster than the two months or so I have to wait for built to order furniture that I've paid for.

ASIC pre-order customers have taken substantial risks - there's no doubt about that - but the option of waiting until BFL pre-orders were cleared has always been there.  Those who pre-ordered wanted to be the first to get ASICs because they realise that every ASIC which hits the market diminishes the profitability of all other ASICs.  Most were hoping to have their ASICs in hand before the block reward halved and thought that they'd have a significant head start on ASIC mining before a large number of ASICs were delivered by different vendors.  They viewed the potential reward as being worth the risk.  

The big thing to remember is that this product has one purpose - to generate income in the form of Bitcoins.  That people will take huge risks in pursuit of Bitcoins has been demonstrated time and time again.

Actually I do BTO work at my job.  I work for a rack and cabinet manufacture as an account manager and about 20% of my business is custom sheet metal fab.  Any custom or BTO job we take our quotes are very clear that they are non-cancellable and non-returnable once material has arrived and fab has started.  We also provide the client with a production drawing for sign off approval.  I know its just metal and not electronics IP etc and we are not selling retail (we are distribution centric).  We never take money up front, in fact we get a PO and the client is billed and is required to pay net 30 after delivery.  I certainly would never suggest ASIC manufacture is anything like what we do and certainly what we do is not realistic for this situation I get that.  My point is all about only taking full payment pre-orders to transfer much of the risk to the consumer/end user.

Forced wasn't the best word, I didn't intend for it to be translated literally.  What I should have said was if you want to get into ASICS you will only be able to do by full payment pre-orders thus transferring a debateable amount of risk from the manufacture to the consumer.

As for "All" the risk OK maybe that was to unilateral but they shed some risk from themselves to the consumer by only accepting orders the way they do.

You sir are a real gem, one of a kind (I can only hope).

Are you often ignorant simply for the sake of being ignorant (I think yes!)

First of all LOL at lawsuits I am not even sure how you managed to get there from my post but ah OK cool!

Perhaps in its literal definition forced was not the perfect word.  I guess me assuming that someone reading the post could get the "jist" of it without translating every word literally we're just slightly optimistic?

Would you prefer if I said something like The current ASIC vendors have decided to only accept full payment pre-orders thus shifting the burden of risk from themselves to the customer?

Do you build to order in your job?  It's actually pretty common to pay upfront and not be able to get a refund on built to order goods.  Bitcoins ASICs have had a long timeline from order to delivery on their first batches and you're right that customers were bearing a large risk.  I don't think you can say that they were bearing all the risk, though, because it's highly likely that first batch sales didn't cover development costs.

No-one's forcing anyone to pre-order.  Plenty of people have decided to wait until BFL is shipping on a normal retail basis rather than pre-order from anyone.

You're apparently also overlooking the fact that Avalon didn't intend to ship rigs initially so they weren't set up for that.  They've been open about the fact that pre-order funds for Batch 2 will be used to build the units.

Why not is definitely not a valid reason IMO...  I believe my correction to you statement is more accurate and would agree completely with it .

Hell if they had the money to float the project but still took full payment pre-orders than what did they use client money for, speculation, paying salaries, R&D, hookers and blow.  Really it doesn't matter what they did with it IMO the community gave them an interest free loan for an "open" amount of time, if shit hit the fan they could have lost money and what would the manufactures have lost?  If they took it and needed it shame on them, if they took it and didn't need it shame on them.

I mean just look at Avalon, pre pay in full with no refund... that's on batch #2  Avalon is losing absolutely nothing no matter what happens, anyone ordering is taking all the risk (big or small its still risk).  When purchasing goods it is not normal for the consumer to take ALL the risk while the retailer and manufacture take none.  God I wish I could get away with this type of business model at my job!

And to your last point (sorry not familiar with the multi quoting from a single post yet... yup Im a newb!).  You can gauge the demand for a product based on pre-sales with a small deposit vs full pre paid orders.  Wouldn't it be sweet if there was a machine and some type of program that could have all of the client information on various stages of orders, payments, shipments etc    Come on dude handling (in Avalons case 300 orders for batch #1) is not that difficult in 2013 (unless you believe their current PR campaign).  They can design and manufacture ASICS but cant run a tiny little Etail operation because clients haven't pre paid in full.

They're also not naming which "huge corporation" they're a division of - despite saying that they want people to "get to know them".  No huge corporation would have let that verbal vomit be posted.  The announcement that they had bought bASIC would have been carefully crafted by someone who can write English.  Comments about Tom, Dave and BFL wouldn't have been approved for posting on the website.  References to bASIC would have been removed if they're re-branding.  A "huge corporation" would have made sure that the announcement included the names and contact numbers of the division staff.

Hey man, I think you might have a viable lawsuit on your hands if you were forced to purchase something.  Did they use a gun or a knife or something?  Was your family being held hostage until you ordered?  If you were forced into ordering something, it's under duress and you aren't liable for any contract you signed.  You should definitely consult a lawyer, I think you have a case!

BTW - just out of curiosity, which vendor(s) forced you to order?

There's always more, and it's always worse.

LOL .. it has?! weird...

This text has been updated several times.. so far....
So obviously who ever it is , is reading the threads.

Oh most definitely  


Meh, why not? As a small company, it's vastly easier to have everyone pay in full right from the start. When the time comes to build, package, and ship, it's nice to know that you have X amount of customers that have already paid, compared to X [fully paid], Y [partially paid], and/or even Z [not paid]. It negates the "Oh wait, did this person pay the rest of their bill before I ship?" type of mentality.

Not sure why the discussion now is around Canadians. For all I care, it could be the Russians, the Italians, the Godfather and so on ...

Oh, I get it; they use Canada to try to look legit, you know Canada, close to U.S.? ... North America? ... cousins?

I think this is a watch and wait. Wait for a video, wait for the products to be ready to ship, hell, even wait for someone to order first. Based on that eye-bleeding wall of text, I wouldn't order from that company even if my life would depend on it.

To be honest, we don't consider the francophones real Canadians anyway.. They are Canadiens..

I am aware of what ROI means... guess I should have put +ROI but I think you're knit picking and understand my point. Simply put purchasing a game is not an investment its for entertainment (for the vast majority of consumers at least).  Purchasing ASICS is to try and make money (or potentially other more noble reasons) but I think primarily its to see if a few bucks can be made.

If they had profits and outside investments, why exactly did they need to take full payment pre-orders?  if they didnt need customer money why not take a small deposit to hold the clients place, this is what normal real world companies do?

We seem to be on the same page here.



I'm not sure you understand what a return on investment is..but you can make one on anything, it just doesn't have to be positive

And ASICs can be quite entertaining when put in front of the right audience


You might want to go back and check your facts on that one. Avalon, BFL, and bASIC all had income from their FPGA sales, which primarily fueled their ASIC development. Butterfly Labs also has outside funding besides their previous sales. Whether or not each company used preorder funds to help in the development process is up for debate, but my hunch is that most companies took the more ethical route.

And for all we know, others could have gotten external funding as well. It's not like they're publicly traded companies with the requirement to disclose such information.