I have no interest in this other than as an observer, but I can't see anyway that a refund could possibly be made in any currency other than the one it was made in. If payment was made in US Dollars through PayPal then refund then US Dollars. If payment was made in btc you should be returning bitcoins. It's not the purchasers fault that you decided to denominate your product in BTC and something happened to the exchange rate.
That is your issue to plan as a business owner. If I bought a product from Japan with US dollars and all of a sudden the dollar got a lot stronger you better believe I wouldn't accept the equivalent amount of yen my dollars purchased at the time I bought the product. That's absurd!
Either deliver the product as promised or return the BTC. It seems like the problem is BFL can't do either of these options.
Topic: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! - page 14. (Read 51113 times)
Markets have no mercy. You are being punished for shorting Bitcoin.
I have been punished for BFL gambling addiction. BFL customers have no control over how much will BFL decide to convert in USD and how much will they keep in Bitcoin. This % can vary and depends solely on how the merchant sets up their merchant account with BitPay. Professional traders know what is the meaning of a currency option call. This option call is free for BFL. If BTC/USD gamble is successful the profit is for BFL crooks if it is a loss then it is paid by their customers in the form of partial Bitcoin refunds.Oh, this again.
No business selling pre-orders for ASICs is going to give you back more than the value of the item you paid for when you request a refund. That's a completely absurd expectation.
If someone paid 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, how would it make any sense to give them back 300 BTC for their refund now, enabling them to buy ~150 Jalapenos right now?
According to you, one need refund "the value of the item you paid for when you request a refund", but BFL did not do this. They refunded the value of the item at the time it was ordered. Especially sinister since BFL had to put twice as many chips into the Jalapeno as planned. These chips could have sold for $75 apiece.
But yes, people should have held their BTC instead of investing it in BFLs attempt to make bitcoin mining gear. People could have had dozens of Jalapenos (assuming BFL makes it through their backlog) instead of one.
Good correction, thanks.
Markets have no mercy. You are being punished for shorting Bitcoin.
I have been punished for BFL gambling addiction. BFL customers have no control over how much will BFL decide to convert in USD and how much will they keep in Bitcoin. This % can vary and depends solely on how the merchant sets up their merchant account with BitPay. Professional traders know what is the meaning of a currency option call. This option call is free for BFL. If BTC/USD gamble is successful the profit is for BFL crooks if it is a loss then it is paid by their customers in the form of partial Bitcoin refunds.Oh, this again.
No business selling pre-orders for ASICs is going to give you back more than the value of the item you paid for when you request a refund. That's a completely absurd expectation.
If someone paid 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, how would it make any sense to give them back 300 BTC for their refund now, enabling them to buy ~150 Jalapenos right now?
According to you, one need refund "the value of the item you paid for when you request a refund", but BFL did not do this. They refunded the value of the item at the time it was ordered. Especially sinister since BFL had to put twice as many chips into the Jalapeno as planned. These chips could have sold for $75 apiece.
But yes, people should have held their BTC instead of investing it in BFLs attempt to make bitcoin mining gear. People could have had dozens of Jalapenos (assuming BFL makes it through their backlog) instead of one.
Du hast die Punkte über dem ü vergessen in "für". 
Donnerwetter!I guess you guys don't call people grammar nazi's there, do you?
Markets have no mercy. You are being punished for shorting Bitcoin.
I have been punished for BFL gambling addiction. BFL customers have no control over how much will BFL decide to convert in USD and how much will they keep in Bitcoin. This % can vary and depends solely on how the merchant sets up their merchant account with BitPay. Professional traders know what is the meaning of a currency option call. This option call is free for BFL. If BTC/USD gamble is successful the profit is for BFL crooks if it is a loss then it is paid by their customers in the form of partial Bitcoin refunds.Oh, this again.
No business selling pre-orders for ASICs is going to give you back more than the value of the item you paid for (at the time it was ordered) when you request a refund. That's a completely absurd expectation.
refunded the value of the item at the time it was ordered
If someone paid 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, how would it make any sense to give them back 300 BTC for their refund now, enabling them to buy ~150 Jalapenos right now?
EDIT: added parenthetical per k9quaint's correction
Markets have no mercy. You are being punished for shorting Bitcoin.
I have been punished for BFL gambling addiction. BFL customers have no control over how much will BFL decide to convert in USD and how much will they keep in Bitcoin. This % can vary and depends solely on how the merchant sets up their merchant account with BitPay. Professional traders know what is the meaning of a currency option call. This option call is free for BFL. If BTC/USD gamble is successful the profit is for BFL crooks if it is a loss then it is paid by their customers in the form of partial Bitcoin refunds. 
You will receive refunds equaling in value to your original purchase as it was priced. Markets have no mercy. You are being punished for shorting Bitcoin. You cannot argue against the red truth.
I am laughing hysterically... This obscene adult is being shown up by a seventeen year old who runs his business flawlessly!!!
Was jetzt Werner, du bist so still, schön ein Wiedergutmachungsschnitzel für 2 bestellt?I don't understand German
where's Werner when you need him?Probably in the washing machine.
I am laughing hysterically... This obscene adult is being shown up by a seventeen year old who runs his business flawlessly!!!
Was jetzt Werner, du bist so still, schön ein Wiedergutmachungsschnitzel für 2 bestellt?I don't understand German
where's Werner when you need him? 
I understand if you didn't have time to talk to your lawyer yet
I understood that BFL lawyer is too busy talking with other customer lawyers. To my understanding, the system frowns upon ignoring efforts to reconcile a dispute, prior to attending court.
EDIT: Official response received through my attorney this aft. Ceasing discussing anything related to Butterfly Labs or Josh while the next stage of this dispute is being worked through. Thanks for the support everyone.
Du hast die Punkte über dem ü vergessen in "für".
Donnerwetter!
Du hast die Punkte über dem ü vergessen in "für".
I am laughing hysterically... This obscene adult is being shown up by a seventeen year old who runs his business flawlessly!!!
Was jetzt Werner, du bist so still, schön ein Wiedergutmachungsschnitzel für 2 bestellt?
Why the fck you guys even feed this pathetic troll? Put him on ignore and dont give a fck of what he said.
Quoting him ruined it for everyone.
Quoting him ruined it for everyone.
Good god man, you're still going on about BitPay?
Not me man, it is BFL trying to pass their troubles to BitPay!Here's a quick little step-by-step on how payments for products (in this case, products from Butterfly Labs) works:
1. Customer [with Bitcoins] is on the website.
2. They select a BFL product they'd like to purchase, choosing payment in Bitcoins.
3, Invoice is generated and a third party payment processor (BitPay) takes over at checkout.
4. Bitcoins are sent to the BitPay address as listed on the invoice.
5. BitPay recognizes the payment and converts all of those coins to a fiat (in this case, USD) at whatever the current market rate is.
6. BitPay shows that you've paid your invoice and redirects you back to the previous website.
7. BitPay sends the payment (in fiat) to Butterfly Labs (and takes their cut).
8. BFL shows you've paid and are processing your order.
So, explain to me again why BFL should pay out Bitcoins during a refund?
1. Customer [with Bitcoins] is on the website.
2. They select a BFL product they'd like to purchase, choosing payment in Bitcoins.
3, Invoice is generated and a third party payment processor (BitPay) takes over at checkout.
4. Bitcoins are sent to the BitPay address as listed on the invoice.
5. BitPay recognizes the payment and converts all of those coins to a fiat (in this case, USD) at whatever the current market rate is.
6. BitPay shows that you've paid your invoice and redirects you back to the previous website.
7. BitPay sends the payment (in fiat) to Butterfly Labs (and takes their cut).
8. BFL shows you've paid and are processing your order.
So, explain to me again why BFL should pay out Bitcoins during a refund?
Here's a quick little one-step answer:
1. BFL instruct customer to pay in bitcoin, they get bitcoin, and issue commercial invoice priced in bitcoin.
You're far far away from truth.
1. BFL products are priced both in USD and BTC. You can see the proof on the commercial invoice BFL issues to their customers. The official document for every purchase is the INVOICE:
2. How I "come up with those $US" is exactly NOT my choice but BFL's choice, because customer acts entirely upon BFL instructions how much bitcoins to what bitcoin address they have to pay!
2. You are correct that once BTC are on BFL's bitcoin account with BitPay customers don't have any control over them. Reason for this is that transactional currency is BTC not USD. As we all know refund is nothing else but a reversal of a transaction. This is why BTC refund must be in BTC not in USD.
1. BFL products are priced both in USD and BTC. You can see the proof on the commercial invoice BFL issues to their customers. The official document for every purchase is the INVOICE:
2. How I "come up with those $US" is exactly NOT my choice but BFL's choice, because customer acts entirely upon BFL instructions how much bitcoins to what bitcoin address they have to pay!
If you choose to use Bitpay instead of Paypal because you want to convert some BTC to $US to pay for the item, then what happens to the BTC after Bitpay receives them is no longer your concern.
1. If I choose to use PayPal I have to be PayPal customer! Customers paying in BTC don't choose to use BitPay. BFL made this choice. BFL customers are not BitPay customers for they don't sign any contract with BitPay to be their customers. BFL signed such a contract with BitPay to be their customer. 2. You are correct that once BTC are on BFL's bitcoin account with BitPay customers don't have any control over them. Reason for this is that transactional currency is BTC not USD. As we all know refund is nothing else but a reversal of a transaction. This is why BTC refund must be in BTC not in USD.
Good god man, you're still going on about BitPay? I think the last conversation we had about this was months ago...is this the only thing you've been posting?
3. Bitcoin refunds are treated by BFL as if customers didn't purchase ASIC but USD. This is a blatant violation of all forex regulations. Neither BFL nor BitPay have been licensed to make currency conversion for BFL customers. They are not regulated as exchanges.
I'm sorry, what?
Here's a quick little step-by-step on how payments for products (in this case, products from Butterfly Labs) works:
1. Customer [with Bitcoins] is on the website.
2. They select a BFL product they'd like to purchase, choosing payment in Bitcoins.
3, Invoice is generated and a third party payment processor (BitPay) takes over at checkout.
4. Bitcoins are sent to the BitPay address as listed on the invoice.
5. BitPay recognizes the payment and converts all of those coins to a fiat (in this case, USD) at whatever the current market rate is.
6. BitPay shows that you've paid your invoice and redirects you back to the previous website.
7. BitPay sends the payment (in fiat) to Butterfly Labs (and takes their cut).
8. BFL shows you've paid and are processing your order.
So, explain to me again why BFL should pay out Bitcoins during a refund?
No, the question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that the development and shipping of a product clearly stated to be in development took more than double the time as stipulated. (AFAIK the original stipulation was 4 months.)
Translated... The question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that BFL customers are actually investors without having the rights of investors! 
No, the question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that the development and shipping of a product clearly stated to be in development took more than double the time as stipulated. (AFAIK the original stipulation was 4 months.)
Does this mean that it's not possible to offer a product for sale while it's still in development?
I am a latecomer to BTC, but to me the whole BFL thing is a crowdfunding project that went sour because of many very impatient buyers.
If something takes 2-3 times as long to produce as originally stipulated, then you would want to have a contract in place with performance clauses, which I doubt anyone bothered to in the BFL case. Most people buying mining gear are not that bright, or they don't care.
That said, I also understand the real world, and how business works. Deadlines are not always met. Estimates can be over optimistic. Customers can get upset, money can be lost.
The money is not lost, it is in BFL's hands. After a reasonable amount of time, failure to deliver becomes breach of contract.
Caveat emptor is not a defense when you break a contract to deliver product after the customer has paid in full.
The question boils down to: would a judge feel that it is reasonable for someone to wait 7 months to deliver a product that has been paid for.
No, the question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that the development and shipping of a product clearly stated to be in development took more than double the time as stipulated. (AFAIK the original stipulation was 4 months.)
Does this mean that it's not possible to offer a product for sale while it's still in development?
I am a latecomer to BTC, but to me the whole BFL thing is a crowdfunding project that went sour because of many very impatient buyers.
Oh boy, I hope they send me a nice dhall. Have not had a good one since the only good Indian here closed.
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