Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! - page 10.

Nightowlace

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Quote from: erk on June 20, 2013, 11:17:47 PM

Quote from: josiasrdz on June 20, 2013, 11:11:22 PM

the problem with asics is that we don't have options (or power), asicminer, avalon and bfl have all the power...asicminer is selling overpriced miners, avalon is "testing" or "burning in" the asics and bfl is drunk with power.
and there is nothing we can do about it...other than wait for more companies (bitfury, kncminer) to get in the game

Sounds pretty normal for most new industries. I recall paying $1,800+ for my first DVD player from Sony, and over $8,800 for my first mobile analog phone.

I remember paying $9,000 for my first Plasma TV. Now the same 50" Plasma sells for $500

erk

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Quote from: josiasrdz on June 20, 2013, 11:11:22 PM

the problem with asics is that we don't have options (or power), asicminer, avalon and bfl have all the power...asicminer is selling overpriced miners, avalon is "testing" or "burning in" the asics and bfl is drunk with power.
and there is nothing we can do about it...other than wait for more companies (bitfury, kncminer) to get in the game

Sounds pretty normal for most new industries. I recall paying $1,800+ for my first DVD player from Sony, and over $8,800 for my first mobile analog phone.

josiasrdz

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the problem with asics is that we don't have options (or power), asicminer, avalon and bfl have all the power...asicminer is selling overpriced miners, avalon is "testing" or "burning in" the asics and bfl is drunk with power.
and there is nothing we can do about it...other than wait for more companies (bitfury, kncminer) to get in the game

k9quaint

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Quote from: Korbman on June 20, 2013, 09:29:53 PM

Quote from: Mikeologist on June 20, 2013, 09:14:40 PM

I guess it did, the item is gone.
I was going to buy it for whatever it took.

See Page 20

Also..I love how this thread has turned from going over a Single 50GH/s device into a massive (multipage) discussion about how some users have no idea how BitPay and Bitcoin-to-USD conversions work...as if they can't fathom that currency conversions actually exist. It's 100% clear that it's trolling at this point ..it's highly unlikely anyone can actually be this ignorant whilst partaking in Bitcoin.

At this point the thread is filled with people (like you) who have not read it, as this was posted earlier to exactly the same comment.
https://bitpay.com/faq
Merchants choosing to keep the bitcoins can be anywhere in the world.

Merchants choose what Bitpay will do with the BTC. Merchants offering to escrow the BTC in anticipation of a refund would choose to receive the BTC instead of converting it to one of 30 different currencies. Merchants choosing to spend the BTC (which BFL promised not to until they shipped) would convert it to USD.

Maybe Korbman will read this post and avoid further embarrassment by posting blatant misinformation. Extra irony that he could refer to earlier in the thread, but not know this.

Quote from: erk on June 20, 2013, 09:38:07 PM

The trolling started at post #54 and didn't stop. If I was a mod the thread would have been closed not long after that.

I love how Erk never actually refutes the evidence against him. He just says "troll" and "smear" a lot. Kind of like a weaksauce version of Josh's LiarDouche Powder (TM).

erk

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Quote from: Korbman on June 20, 2013, 09:29:53 PM

Quote from: Mikeologist on June 20, 2013, 09:14:40 PM

I guess it did, the item is gone.
I was going to buy it for whatever it took.

See Page 20

Also..I love how this thread has turned from going over a Single 50GH/s device into a massive (multipage) discussion about how some users have no idea how BitPay and Bitcoin-to-USD conversions work...as if they can't fathom that currency conversions actually exist. It's 100% clear that it's trolling at this point ..it's highly unlikely anyone can actually be this ignorant whilst partaking in Bitcoin.

The trolling started at post #54 and didn't stop. If I was a mod the thread would have been closed not long after that.

MrThePlague

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Quote

Most businesses would hold BTC until they shipped the product. It is only too risky for companies like BFL that don't ship for months on end.

True. But there are numerous companies that offer 30, even 45 days refund period once you've received a product, do you really expect businesses to wait up to a full 45 days AFTER you receive a product to be paid?

Korbman

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Quote from: Mikeologist on June 20, 2013, 09:14:40 PM

I guess it did, the item is gone.
I was going to buy it for whatever it took.

See Page 20

Also..I love how this thread has turned from going over a Single 50GH/s device into a massive (multipage) discussion about how some users have no idea how BitPay and Bitcoin-to-USD conversions work...as if they can't fathom that currency conversions actually exist. It's 100% clear that it's trolling at this point ..it's highly unlikely anyone can actually be this ignorant whilst partaking in Bitcoin.

k9quaint

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Quote from: MrThePlague on June 20, 2013, 09:00:43 PM

As others have pointed out, I think getting refunded in USD equivalent is fair IMO, because if BTC was worth $1 today, I don't think a single person would complain about getting a USD refund, and demand they are paid back in worthless BTC that's worth a fraction of the USD it was at the time of purchase. There are numerous sources that accept BTC, if it becomes a game of 'refund me my BTC if it goes up, and USD if it goes down', I can see why business are hesitant on accepting Bitcoin at their business. You've virtually made it a lose/lose for businesses.

Most businesses would hold BTC until they shipped the product. It is only too risky for companies like BFL that don't ship for months on end.

Quote from: MrThePlague on June 20, 2013, 09:00:43 PM

Also, there are numerous examples of comparing BTC to Yen, Euro, USD, etc.. I think the prime difference in these cases is all of those are federally recognized as currency by governments and world bodies. BTC is not. Trust me, I want BTC to succeed as much as anyone here does, and I strongly believe digital currency is the future. However, because a group of people on the internet say Bitcoin is a mainstream currency, the courts (as far as I know) say differently. Maybe years down the road this will change, but I can't see a single judge seeing it this way as of now.

Quote from: erk on June 20, 2013, 09:13:45 PM

Bitcoin is not a currency in a general sense, it is a journal of past transactions in the public record. The block chain will not contain a record of BFL receiving your Bitcoins, as Bitpay received the Bitcoins. Good luck trying that one out on a judge, not that it would ever get that far, as to my knowledge BFL have not refused a refund of a pre-order to date, if they have nobody has screamed about it here.

Actually, FINCen just issued guidance on this and they do call it a currency, but Bitcoin has not yet been tested in courts. Other virtual currencies have been tested (airline miles, facebook credits, etc) and it is not too much of a stretch to establish them as precedent.
http://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html

Mikeologist

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Quote from: dlasher on June 17, 2013, 05:54:43 PM

From the auction:

Quote

For every 1K under 25K on the final sales price will cause a delay in shipping by one week. Please do not bid if you have a problem with this!

Creative, but really?

I'm not sure you can actually do that and not violate EBAY ToS...

I guess it did, the item is gone.
I was going to buy it for whatever it took.

erk

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Activity: 826

Merit: 500

Quote from: Fiyasko on June 20, 2013, 08:55:08 PM

People should be concerned about how long thier BFL device will actually work for before blowing out, They were rushed out, Right? They could all be little timebombs

They have a warranty you know, or don't you read those things?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:What+is+the+warranty+period+on+your+devices

Quote from: MrThePlague on June 20, 2013, 09:00:43 PM

Also, there are numerous examples of comparing BTC to Yen, Euro, USD, etc.. I think the prime difference in these cases is all of those are federally recognized as currency by governments and world bodies. BTC is not. Trust me, I want BTC to succeed as much as anyone here does, and I strongly believe digital currency is the future. However, because a group of people on the internet say Bitcoin is a mainstream currency, the courts (as far as I know) say differently. Maybe years down the road this will change, but I can't see a single judge seeing it this way as of now.

Bitcoin is not a currency in a general sense, it is a journal of past transactions in the public record. The block chain will not contain a record of BFL receiving your Bitcoins, as Bitpay received the Bitcoins. Good luck trying that one out on a judge, not that it would ever get that far, as to my knowledge BFL have not refused a refund of a pre-order to date, if they have nobody has screamed about it here.

MrThePlague

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As others have pointed out, I think getting refunded in USD equivalent is fair IMO, because if BTC was worth $1 today, I don't think a single person would complain about getting a USD refund, and demand they are paid back in worthless BTC that's worth a fraction of the USD it was at the time of purchase. There are numerous sources that accept BTC, if it becomes a game of 'refund me my BTC if it goes up, and USD if it goes down', I can see why business are hesitant on accepting Bitcoin at their business. You've virtually made it a lose/lose for businesses.

Also, there are numerous examples of comparing BTC to Yen, Euro, USD, etc.. I think the prime difference in these cases is all of those are federally recognized as currency by governments and world bodies. BTC is not. Trust me, I want BTC to succeed as much as anyone here does, and I strongly believe digital currency is the future. However, because a group of people on the internet say Bitcoin is a mainstream currency, the courts (as far as I know) say differently. Maybe years down the road this will change, but I can't see a single judge seeing it this way as of now.

Fiyasko

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Okey Dokey Lokey

People should be concerned about how long thier BFL device will actually work for before blowing out, They were rushed out, Right? They could all be little timebombs

k9quaint

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Quote from: kendog77 on June 20, 2013, 08:34:51 PM

Quote from: k9quaint on June 20, 2013, 08:23:18 PM

Quote from: Bitcoinorama on June 20, 2013, 08:17:28 PM

This is such a non-issue.

Anyone with common sense realises suppliers weren't ready to accept Bitcoin. Payment had to be made in dollars regardless of the accepted 'currency'.

Pre-orders were offered to customers in Dollars and Bitcoins. It would have been more than a little hypocritical not to.

BFL could not foresee the rise in Bitcoin's future value, nor could it keep Bitcoin paid finds in Bitcoins, as it needed to pay suppliers in Dollars.

Customers don't loose out on the Dollar value in any case. End of.

Of course BFL could have kept the Bitcoin paid funds in Bitcoins. BFL promised that they were not touching customer funds to pay suppliers, wages, rent, etc. BFL claimed to have Venture Capital funding to pay for that.

If BFL did not claim to have put the customer funds in escrow and offer them for refund at any time, I would not expect them to. But they did so claim, so I do so expect. Wink

If BFL had just said from the start that they were funding ASIC development with pre-order funds and they had to convert BTC payments into dollars for this reason and that all refunds would be in dollars, I wouldn't have an issue with the way they did refunds.

Did BFL ever claim to hold BTC in escrow?

A quick google search of Inaba and preorder turned up this post. I provided the relevant quote that they claimed to hold preorder funds in a separate account and did not use it for day to day expenditures.

Quote from: Inaba on December 08, 2012, 05:48:18 PM

To answer your question, yes we maintain preorder funds separate from expenditure funds.

You can read the whole post to get the context.

Quote from: kendog77 on June 20, 2013, 08:34:51 PM

They could have converted BTC to USD, and held USD in escrow, couldn't they?

Sure, but why would they? If they intended to refund their customers what they paid, why would they exchange the money and take a currency risk with one of the most volatile currencies on the planet (BTC). The only way it makes sense is if they needed to spend the USD, which BFL said they did not need to.

kendog77

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Quote from: k9quaint on June 20, 2013, 08:23:18 PM

Quote from: Bitcoinorama on June 20, 2013, 08:17:28 PM

This is such a non-issue.

Anyone with common sense realises suppliers weren't ready to accept Bitcoin. Payment had to be made in dollars regardless of the accepted 'currency'.

Pre-orders were offered to customers in Dollars and Bitcoins. It would have been more than a little hypocritical not to.

BFL could not foresee the rise in Bitcoin's future value, nor could it keep Bitcoin paid finds in Bitcoins, as it needed to pay suppliers in Dollars.

Customers don't loose out on the Dollar value in any case. End of.

Of course BFL could have kept the Bitcoin paid funds in Bitcoins. BFL promised that they were not touching customer funds to pay suppliers, wages, rent, etc. BFL claimed to have Venture Capital funding to pay for that.

If BFL did not claim to have put the customer funds in escrow and offer them for refund at any time, I would not expect them to. But they did so claim, so I do so expect. Wink

If BFL had just said from the start that they were funding ASIC development with pre-order funds and they had to convert BTC payments into dollars for this reason and that all refunds would be in dollars, I wouldn't have an issue with the way they did refunds.

Did BFL ever claim to hold BTC in escrow? They could have converted BTC to USD, and held USD in escrow, couldn't they?

k9quaint

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Quote from: Bitcoinorama on June 20, 2013, 08:17:28 PM

This is such a non-issue.

Anyone with common sense realises suppliers weren't ready to accept Bitcoin. Payment had to be made in dollars regardless of the accepted 'currency'.

Pre-orders were offered to customers in Dollars and Bitcoins. It would have been more than a little hypocritical not to.

BFL could not foresee the rise in Bitcoin's future value, nor could it keep Bitcoin paid finds in Bitcoins, as it needed to pay suppliers in Dollars.

Customers don't loose out on the Dollar value in any case. End of.

Of course BFL could have kept the Bitcoin paid funds in Bitcoins. BFL promised that they were not touching customer funds to pay suppliers, wages, rent, etc. BFL claimed to have Venture Capital funding to pay for that.

If BFL did not claim to have put the customer funds in escrow and offer them for refund at any time, I would not expect them to. But they did so claim, so I do so expect. Wink

If BFL had just said from the start that they were funding ASIC development with pre-order funds and they had to convert BTC payments into dollars for this reason and that all refunds would be in dollars, I wouldn't have an issue with the way they did refunds.

Bitcoinorama

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This is such a non-issue.

Anyone with common sense realises suppliers weren't ready to accept Bitcoin. Payment had to be made in dollars regardless of the accepted 'currency'.

Pre-orders were offered to customers in Dollars and Bitcoins. It would have been more than a little hypocritical not to.

BFL could not foresee the rise in Bitcoin's future value, nor could it keep Bitcoin paid finds in Bitcoins, as it needed to pay suppliers in Dollars.

Customers don't loose out on the Dollar value in any case. End of.

Red_Wolf_2

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Quote from: k9quaint on June 20, 2013, 07:58:54 PM

Quote from: Red_Wolf_2 on June 20, 2013, 07:16:23 PM

Quote from: k9quaint on June 20, 2013, 07:04:22 PM

You should have received back what you paid, minus any Paypal fees. From their website
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

According to Paypal's website, you have a grievance.

The way you can interpret the statement on the Paypal site is rather interesting. By the looks of it, the refund exchange is done at the rate used on the purchase date. This means the loss or gain (if any) appears to be eaten by Paypal rather than the buyer or seller in the transaction. This might have to do with Paypal being a financial services organisation, or might just be because they're being as nice and fair as they can. It might also be why the exchange rate spread is so high.

Paypal is a financial services organization which knows how to hedge currency risk.

Quote from: Red_Wolf_2 on June 20, 2013, 07:53:18 PM

In essence, if this rule were applied across the board, BitPay/BitInstant would be the ones to suffer, not BFL, as the refund exchange would be done at the purchase date rates, which would be considerably lower than they are today.

Except Bitpay was not the one offering the escrow & refund service, BFL was. BFL claimed they were holding the customer funds in escrow and those funds were available for refund. Paypal offers a similar service, and they use the exchange rate at the time of purchase as the exchange rate for the refund.

And where this might have changed is when I believe BFL switched from using BitInstant to BitPay, possibly around about the time BitInstant suffered a funds loss due to a successful hack attack.

Korbman

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Quote from: Malawi on June 20, 2013, 07:53:44 PM

Quote from: dhenson on June 20, 2013, 06:22:22 PM

Anyone else picturing this while reading this thread?

Don't see Werner in that picture...

I picture K9 as the little boy in the background (next to Freakin) ..he has no idea what's going on or how anything works, but he wants to be a part of the action.

Matthew N. Wright

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Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet

Quote from: Malawi on June 20, 2013, 07:53:44 PM

Quote from: dhenson on June 20, 2013, 06:22:22 PM

Anyone else picturing this while reading this thread?

Don't see Werner in that picture...

Your wish is my command.
Try to spot him if you can.

k9quaint

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Merit: 1000

Quote from: Red_Wolf_2 on June 20, 2013, 07:16:23 PM

Quote from: k9quaint on June 20, 2013, 07:04:22 PM

You should have received back what you paid, minus any Paypal fees. From their website
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

According to Paypal's website, you have a grievance.

The way you can interpret the statement on the Paypal site is rather interesting. By the looks of it, the refund exchange is done at the rate used on the purchase date. This means the loss or gain (if any) appears to be eaten by Paypal rather than the buyer or seller in the transaction. This might have to do with Paypal being a financial services organisation, or might just be because they're being as nice and fair as they can. It might also be why the exchange rate spread is so high.

Paypal is a financial services organization which knows how to hedge currency risk.

Quote from: Red_Wolf_2 on June 20, 2013, 07:53:18 PM

In essence, if this rule were applied across the board, BitPay/BitInstant would be the ones to suffer, not BFL, as the refund exchange would be done at the purchase date rates, which would be considerably lower than they are today.

Except Bitpay was not the one offering the escrow & refund service, BFL was. BFL claimed they were holding the customer funds in escrow and those funds were available for refund. Paypal offers a similar service, and they use the exchange rate at the time of purchase as the exchange rate for the refund.

Topic: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! - page 10. (Read 51113 times)