Topic: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! - page 7. (Read 51125 times)

I wouldn't worry too much, the only people in denial of how currency conversion works with online purchases, are either trolls or greedy. Most normal people already know you often have to covert back and forth between currencies when you by online or get a refund.

Truth

At least then BFL would be refunding them in BTC. 

I think people should look at it this way, what if their 300BTC was now worth $0.50 would they still want BTC or the USD value they paid?

Kinda put things in perspective eh!

Correct. Any expectation of escrow would have to come from either BFL or a third party.

Also correct.
BFL claimed that they were segregating customer funds from operational funds for the purpose of always being able to supply customers with full refunds. Whenever customers got jittery over BFL burning through their pre-order money, BFL responded with the claim that no-preorder funds had been spent and that they were segregated from operational funds.


Fair enough. My definition of refund is the same as Paypals. I don't like that people who paid via Paypal get a full refund and people who paid with BTC got a "BFL refund". That says to every customer out there "don't use BTC, you can get screwed". I also don't like that people who paid via BTC need to get a Paypal or bank account to get a refund. That is also a terrible precedent to set.

If they do this, it really just mean that PayPal takes the customers currency risk. They can probably do this because they have huge volumes.

Also - If it is priced in GBP and you pay for it with USD, it really means that they fleece you with a very poor currency-exchange, Guess that high fee also works as a hedge.

BitPay is not a bank, and they were never required to put their BTC or USD received in an escrow account. If you (customer) wanted to ensure that every single BTC could have been returned to you, you should have requested that you put your BTC in an escrow wallet (controlled by a third party) until your device was shipped.

That way...

1. You know that none of the BTC have been spent
2. You can receive back every single BTC back


BFL is offering full refunds. It is not okay for BFL to deny full refunds now that they are offering them. We will have to agree to disagree on the definition of full refund.

Whether the BFL used Bitpay or some other plugin code to take BTC from customers is not relevant. Merchants who accept gold as payment usually don't hold that gold for 12 months and thus are not subject to exchange rate risk (if they are, they usually hedge that risk in some way). Even if they did hold the gold for 12 months, if they didn't spend the gold then why is there a risk involved in refunding it? If BFL took the BTC from Bitpay and put it in a wallet, why is it so hard for them to give it back? When I ask a bank to hold my money for me, I expect them to give it back to me in the form I gave it to them, not in worthless mortgage backed securities that they converted my USD to.


I think on this point we will have to agree to disagree. BFL declared on these forums and their own that customers can ask for a refund whenever they want one. I feel that if BFL then denied refunds to all those who asked, it would be morally and ethically wrong. It would almost certainly be illegal as well, but that is for courts and lawyers to act on.

People who paid BFL in BTC lost out compared to people who used PayPal. That precedent is bad for BTC as a going concern.
To get a refund you have to supply BFL with a PayPal or Bank account, so why use BTC at all? No recourse, and partial refunds in a currency that might not be yours.

Edit: I missed your edit, could you clarify please?
After BFL offered full refunds to all customers, is it ok for BFL to deny refunds because BitPay gives them the ability to?

Is he yelling at a sailor? That looks like the new Navy uniform, and those are not navy barracks. Must be FMF trainee?

No, they already had the moral, ethical, and legal right to. BitPay just outlines ways that they can choose to issue refunds if they wanted to.

In the situation where i used a "BitPay of Gold" I would let them take me to court. Given your description of using Gold in transactions the only smart move as a merchant is either to not accept it or to not offer refunds. It is unclear as to exactly what Bitcoin is (in terms of legal definitions). I believe one US State has a precedent of Bitcoin being a tool of barter. If you can convince a court that using BitPay (of Gold), rather than accepting the Gold itself, is an act of barter then you might have some ground. Arguing that using the actual BitPay is an act of barter is going to be an even tougher task though.


Yes, it would have been acceptable for BFL to not offer refunds. If they were to do this, they probably wouldn't want to accept PayPal though.

edit : deny->refuse to offer, don't want to mix these up.

best post in this thread to date! spot on!

You need to distinguish between what is possible and what is fair. BFL also had the capability to deny refunds. Because Bitpay allowed BFL to deny refund requests, does that give BFL the moral, ethical, and legal right to?

Using gold for a transaction would be using barter. It doesn't matter how you describe the amount of gold ($1500, 1 ounce, 1 bar, etc). For the refund to be full, you must refund everything the customer gave to you. Giving them half a bar after they gave you a full bar would constitute a partial refund. It doesn't matter that you at some point are going to convert the gold to USD, or GBP, or RUS, or RMB, or BJs. It doesn't matter when you convert it. To make your customer whole, you must give them back what they gave you (or enough money for them to buy a replacement of what they gave you). If you only give them enough USD to buy half a gold bar, they will take you to court.

Ok, but a lot of other people in the thread have. Sorry if I confused your position with theirs.


Again, BFL also had the choice to deny refunds. Since BFL has the ability to deny refunds though Bitpay, would it be acceptable for them to deny all refunds to all of their customers who used Bitpay?

Yet people who purchased with BitPay were fully aware that BFL could issue the original amount of the invoice in (BitPay's) local currency. Due Diligence is important.

The example I gave was one where something is used to satisfy the price of something else. If I were to use a BitPay for gold, reimbursing them the original gold bar might be impossible. I would refund them that price. I would only send them back the gold if the change in value of the gold did not warrant breaking it down to "make change" or sending something alongside the gold to makeup the difference.


I have not said that BFL were forced to convert to USD or refund in USD. I have spoken with Tony of BitPay, I know this is not the case.

Customers of BFL chose to use BitPay despite the fact that BFL had the choice as to whether to refund in USD or in BTC. Those unaware of this have failed at performing their Due Diligence.

Yes. This is exactly what I was referring to. Everyone has been saying that BFL was forced by Bitpay to convert to USD and could only refund in USD.
That is not true. Thank you for finding that for me.

BFL had the choice whether to convert the purchase from BTC to USD. We don't know what they did, they might have kept it all in BTC.
BFL had the choice as to whether to refund in USD or in BTC. They chose USD.

BFL's Paypal customers who pay with something other than USD and ask for a refund get made whole using the exchange rate at the time of purchase.
BFL's BTC customers only get back some of their BTC using the exchange rate at the time of refund.
All I am asking is that BFL (who claimed they were not spending their customers money to do development) treat their BTC customers the same way they treat their PayPal customers.

Excellent link, I will add it to my list. The quote you bolded stands out.
Or in the number of Bitcoins paid.  Bitpay made it possible for BFL to issue refunds in Bitcoins for the number of Bitcoins paid. BFL chose not to.


This is the root of the problem. That example you gave is a contract by barter. If you dissolve such a contract (by telling them to take a long walk off the pier), you have to give the party back what they gave you. That means either all the gold, or enough money to buy the amount of gold they gave you. You can't just give them some of their gold back because you think you deserve some based on current exchange rates.

It isn't fair to give customers who used Paypal back their money with the original exchange rate and the customers who used Bitcoin back their money using current exchange rates just because the current exchange rate now favors BFL.

https://bitpay.com/terms
My point was that you don't know how the escrow was set up. If it was in USD, it would be unreasonable to expect BFL to repurchase the bitcoins to repay a customer that paid in bitcoins.

BitPay displays the customer the number of bitcoins they need to send to satisfy a USD price.

BFL doesn't have to worry about risk refunding customers because they have the funds in escrow. BFL will refund based on the currency they used to price their products. The escrow does not need to be brought up again.

If I were to accept gold bars as payment for a product I priced in (something that is not gold bars). I would refund them back an amount equaling the price in (that something that is not gold bars) that they paid.

Gold is a bad example, because it can be expensive to ship and is not as easily divisible as bitcoin.

If someone came to me and asked me to send them the gold bar back after a ~10x increase in value of the gold bar... I would tell them to take a long walk off of a short pier.

BFL could hav easily been able to sell a product priced in BTC, however they didn't.
BitPay allows the Merchant to choose what currency to base refunds off of. SEE TOP/BOTTOM.

They could refund in the amount of BTC a customer sent. But they don't have to. SEE TOP/BOTTOM.

SEE TOP/BOTTOM.

---

https://bitpay.com/terms

edit: made edits to save space, and answer last quote.

rolf

They said that all pre-order funds were segregated from their operational funds. They did not detail how many accounts were used. I don't see why it would be difficult to have BTC in a wallet at the same time they have USD in a bank account.

You keep saying the product was priced in USD. There is clear photographic evidence of Bitpay providing a price in BTC. BFL's operational expenses are denominated in USD. It is only an awkward situation for BFL because they took the full price of the product at pre-order instead of a deposit.

If BFL took a 5% deposit that is non-refundable, that would be much better for the consumer. They are only risking 5% of their capital with BFL and BFL doesn't have to worry about currency risk.

Yes. Why does that matter exactly? It doesn't matter to Paypal. Paypal uses the exchange rate at the time of purchase to calculate refunds. It doesn't matter to the customer what the product is "priced" in or how that price is calculated. If you accept gold bars as payment, you had better be prepared to refund in gold bars and not Zimbabwean dollars.

Avalon seemed able to sell product in BTC. They delivered it too.
Alpaca stores in Peru post prices in Neuvos Sol, and I am able to purchase those products using my USD via Paypal, the exchange rate is calculated automatically based on the current day's exchange rate. When I ask for a refund, I get back USD from Paypal.

If BFL owed 200BTC back to a customer, they could send however many USD it would take to purchase 200BTC. That only works for customers in the US though. International customers might be pissed off (some countries have capital controls on other currencies)

Do this (assuming you are from the US):
Go to an online store in England and find a product "priced in" GBP that accepts Paypal.
Buy the product, and pay for it with USD.
Ask for a refund and see if you get USD or GBP back.

(spoiler alert: you will receive USD back even though the price on the product page was in British pounds. The amount you get back should use the exchange rate at the time of purchase.)

@QuestionAuthority My entire post was typed using only one hand  

I don't know about these guys, but I can multi-task!

Wow, you guys are still pissing and moaning about this issue 10 pages later? There's some really good porn out in the wild that deserves a lot more attention than this shit. Grab a bottle of lotion and have yourself a good day.