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Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 141. (Read 77398 times)

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There are other, less expensive ways to find moles.
This makes more sense:

Quote
Suggestions that Prigozhin’s rebellion, the Kremlin’s response, and Lukashenko’s mediation were all staged by the Kremlin are absurd. The imagery of Putin appearing on national television to call for the end of an armed rebellion and warning of a repeat of the 1917 revolution – and then requiring mediation from a foreign leader to resolve the rebellion – will have a lasting impact. The rebellion exposed the weakness of the Russian security forces and demonstrated Putin’s inability to use his forces in a timely manner to repel an internal threat and further eroded his monopoly on force. Prigozhin’s rapid drive towards Moscow ridiculed much of the Russian regular forces – and highlighted to any and all security figures, state-owned enterprises, and other key figures in the Russian government that private military forces separate from the central state can achieve impressive results. Wagner’s drive also showcased the degradation of Russia’s military reserves, which are almost entirely committed to fighting in Ukraine, as well as the dangers of reliance on inexperienced conscripts to defend Russia’s borders. The Kremlin struggled to respond quickly in the information space and residents in Rostov-on-Don residents did not oppose Wagner and in some cases greeted them warmly – not inherently demonstrating opposition to Putin but at minimum acceptance of Prigozhin’s actions.[48] Finally, the Kremlin’s apparent surprise at Prigozhin’s move does not reflect well on Russia’s domestic intelligence service, the FSB. Prigozhin consistently escalated his rhetoric against the Russian MoD prior to his armed rebellion and Putin failed to mitigate this risk.[49] We cannot and will not speculate on the concrete impacts of Prigozhin’s rebellion and the Kremlin’s weak response and are not forecasting an imminent collapse of the Russian government, as some have done. Nonetheless, Prigozhin’s rebellion and the resolution of the events of June 23 and 24 - though not necessarily the Prigozhin/Kremlin struggle writ large - will likely substantially damage Putin’s government and the Russian war effort in Ukraine.

RUSSIAN OFFENSIVE CAMPAIGN ASSESSMENT, JUNE 24, 2023
Military experts from the Institute for the Study of War are vainly minding not their own business, trying to figure out the intricacies of Russian political cuisine. Prigozhin never even verbally criticized Putin, in Russia it is somehow not customary to bite the hand that feeds you. The mercenaries of the Wagner group either have a pro-Putin position, or are completely apolitical, more loyal to Putin than Wagner, only bodyguards from his personal guard. This is the only reason why Wagner could exist at all for so long, being outside the legal field (mercenarism in Russia is a criminal offense, Article 359 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation).

ps By Wagner, I mean the main core of the Wagner group, not including the former prisoners who temporarily joined it, recruited on six-month contracts specifically for the assault on Bakhmut.
legendary
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So, seems that circus is over, Prigozhin ordered Wagner convoy to turn back and return to their camps. Lukashenko says that Prigozhin accepted his proposal after some negotiations, criminal case against Prigozhin also was dropped.
So, does it means that Putin reached agreement with terrorists and things will go on like nothing didn't happned. I just remind that during this rebellion Russian army lost six helicopters, transport plane and somehwere 10-15 troops.
Probably this photo summarizes things that happened in last 24 hours best:

BTW seems that this my post didn't aged badly and now it really looks like staged shit:
I have no idea how everything will end, maybe this story will have boring outcome, but my popcorn is ready.
I hope you appreciated the quality and scale of this performance. It turns out that in Russia they are also able to carry out complex and multi-pass psychological operations, and not on the Internet, but in the scenery of the real world. It remains to understand the purpose of this whole circus, during which more Russian planes and helicopters were shot down than Ukraine shot down from the start of the counteroffensive (it was easy, because Ukraine shot down nothing from the start of the counteroffensive).

I think that the main purpose of this performance was to identify a high-ranking mole in the Russian General Staff.

There are other, less expensive ways to find moles.
This makes more sense:

Quote
Suggestions that Prigozhin’s rebellion, the Kremlin’s response, and Lukashenko’s mediation were all staged by the Kremlin are absurd. The imagery of Putin appearing on national television to call for the end of an armed rebellion and warning of a repeat of the 1917 revolution – and then requiring mediation from a foreign leader to resolve the rebellion – will have a lasting impact. The rebellion exposed the weakness of the Russian security forces and demonstrated Putin’s inability to use his forces in a timely manner to repel an internal threat and further eroded his monopoly on force. Prigozhin’s rapid drive towards Moscow ridiculed much of the Russian regular forces – and highlighted to any and all security figures, state-owned enterprises, and other key figures in the Russian government that private military forces separate from the central state can achieve impressive results. Wagner’s drive also showcased the degradation of Russia’s military reserves, which are almost entirely committed to fighting in Ukraine, as well as the dangers of reliance on inexperienced conscripts to defend Russia’s borders. The Kremlin struggled to respond quickly in the information space and residents in Rostov-on-Don residents did not oppose Wagner and in some cases greeted them warmly – not inherently demonstrating opposition to Putin but at minimum acceptance of Prigozhin’s actions.[48] Finally, the Kremlin’s apparent surprise at Prigozhin’s move does not reflect well on Russia’s domestic intelligence service, the FSB. Prigozhin consistently escalated his rhetoric against the Russian MoD prior to his armed rebellion and Putin failed to mitigate this risk.[49] We cannot and will not speculate on the concrete impacts of Prigozhin’s rebellion and the Kremlin’s weak response and are not forecasting an imminent collapse of the Russian government, as some have done. Nonetheless, Prigozhin’s rebellion and the resolution of the events of June 23 and 24 - though not necessarily the Prigozhin/Kremlin struggle writ large - will likely substantially damage Putin’s government and the Russian war effort in Ukraine.

RUSSIAN OFFENSIVE CAMPAIGN ASSESSMENT, JUNE 24, 2023
legendary
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Z-telegram rumor mill says that Putin's former bodyguard and current Tula governor Aleksey Dyumin will replace Shoigu (Prigozhin's enemy #1) as the new minister of defence. Also Gerasimov (Prigozhin's enemy #2) is allegedly on his way out, to be replaced by general "difficult decision" Surovikin (the one who gave up Kherson).

If that happens, it'd be a massive win for Prigozhin.

Shoigu would be no great loss as far as I can see, and he'd probably rather be focused on his own rendition of Wager anyway.  You know; the ones that crossed the Oskol river in Kharkiv recently and cleared out the forest on the Russian side of the river.

I doubt that Gerasimov is going anywhere.  To much clout, and as far as I can see he is highly competent too.  Good personality for that job as well.

As for Prigozhin, I was joking about his likelihood of winning the presidential election (in Ukraine) a few months ago, but seeing how quickly he made all of you Ziocon Nazi sympathizers onto swooning fan-boys, maybe it's a real possibility!  He's got one of the primary prerequisites nailed:  'half-Jew'.

====

On Surovikin, b.open, here's some of why I say what I said (and further input is welcome.)  I'm not talking about or familiar with his earlier career, though it seems in a quick wikipedia-level skim that trouble has followed him all of his life and I could see 'armageddon' being a suitable nick-name for that reason.

 - His 'armageddon' and 'brutality' seem to me to be way over-played, and probably for psychological reasons.  He was brought in at a time when there was a very delinquent decision to have a real war, and when the absurdly gentle baby gloves came off.  The 'job description' changed to 'de-militarize' Ukraine including their military personnel.  'Brutality' is part-n-parcel to such a task.

 - Further specifications, for which 2020's Russia has earned my enduring respect, include 'spare Russian servicemen's lives' and 'be careful with all civilians'.  I suspect also 'slow-play' things as needed since a drawn out affair hurts NATO the most and introduces a higher risk of flaring out of hand.  This Surovikin accomplished with stunning competency including very sensible and safe fighting withdrawls and no sparing on defensive measures throughout the entire operational area and beyond.

 - The withdrawal from the North was reasonably impressive but left some room for improvement and civilians suffered (at the hands of the Nazis) because of them.  Kherson was picture-perfect and legendary IMHO.

 - The hard work, foresight, diligence, etc are paying dividends now even in light of the probably worst-case scenario that NATO is not folding and is doubling down in increased desperation.

I'm sure that Surovikin was not wholly responsible for all of the good decisions made over the course of the last year, but he was the guy who's ass was on the line, and especially for the time-period that really counted.

====

On the ridiculous Prigozon psy-op, I think it's funny, and it seemed be effective (only because the adversaries are operating at such a low-function level), but I think it is kind of beneath Russia to leverage these kinds of antics.  I have more respect for the no-nonsense approach.

legendary
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Z-telegram rumor mill says that Putin's former bodyguard and current Tula governor Aleksey Dyumin will replace Shoigu (Prigozhin's enemy #1) as the new minister of defence. Also Gerasimov (Prigozhin's enemy #2) is allegedly on his way out, to be replaced by general "difficult decision" Surovikin (the one who gave up Kherson).

If that happens, it'd be a massive win for Prigozhin.
legendary
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Do not die for Putin
This situation is quite simple. There is a guy with enough troops to be a problem and the top Psychos of the RF army are jealous and thinking they may have to share part of the usual profits they make. They have tried to undercut Prigozhin over and over so the guy, who does not lack balls, did something about it. Since it is in everyone in the RF benefit to overlook all this and go back to fighting Ukraine, it was quite simple to reach a mafia deal.

 This reminds me so much of the Roman Republic and later of the Empire. This was like every 5 years - soldiers were loyal to their generals that rewarded them generously for it. Sila, Cayus Marius, Pompeyo, Julius Cesar,... all of them were in a similar situation and it must be said that it did not always ended in negotiations.

No Psy-ops, no trap (for what? there is no benefit to war on any of this) ... just plain old money and power - quite proper of a country run by kleptocrats like the RF.
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I watched Putin’s speech this morning and am surprised with the Wagner mutiny situation. I did not see that coming. I wonder if anyone did. It seems like this war has gone far better than expected for Ukraine. More recently though it appears that this situation may end peacefully for Russia with Wagner reportedly no longer moving towards Moscow, which may swing the war back in their favor.

I find this predictable. Corruption and incompetence on the part of the Russian authorities are to their own detriment. 

They can't even manage their own militias, and their attempt to play the "modern Napoleon" role is ridiculous. We'll see what repercussions this has, as they're on all fronts: Ukraine, Georgia, or in Africa. Maybe they're wearing themselves out, or maybe they're just capable of succeeding in the face of underdeveloped, unarmed populations.

It's always the smallest dogs that make the most noise ; just as sick and weak animals are always the most aggressive ones.
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I watched Putin’s speech this morning and am surprised with the Wagner mutiny situation. I did not see that coming. I wonder if anyone did. It seems like this war has gone far better than expected for Ukraine. More recently though it appears that this situation may end peacefully for Russia with Wagner reportedly no longer moving towards Moscow, which may swing the war back in their favor.
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So, seems that circus is over, Prigozhin ordered Wagner convoy to turn back and return to their camps. Lukashenko says that Prigozhin accepted his proposal after some negotiations, criminal case against Prigozhin also was dropped.
So, does it means that Putin reached agreement with terrorists and things will go on like nothing didn't happned. I just remind that during this rebellion Russian army lost six helicopters, transport plane and somehwere 10-15 troops.
Probably this photo summarizes things that happened in last 24 hours best:

BTW seems that this my post didn't aged badly and now it really looks like staged shit:
I have no idea how everything will end, maybe this story will have boring outcome, but my popcorn is ready.
I hope you appreciated the quality and scale of this performance. It turns out that in Russia they are also able to carry out complex and multi-pass psychological operations, and not on the Internet, but in the scenery of the real world. It remains to understand the purpose of this whole circus, during which more Russian planes and helicopters were shot down than Ukraine shot down from the start of the counteroffensive (it was easy, because Ukraine shot down nothing from the start of the counteroffensive).

I think that the main purpose of this performance was to identify a high-ranking mole in the Russian General Staff.
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......
What!? Are you not confusing something. Where did you got that there is lot Chechens in Wagner group. BTW, while Wagner almost reached Moscow, chechen Kadyrovites who was ready to fight with Wagner still didn't reached Rostov.


Wagner is a private military company and paychecks come form parent company of Russia. It is made up from a network of desperadoes (mercenaries). You will find people risking life for some loose change from just about any place Chechen, Abkhazian, South Ossetian and even prison.
It is lights out if Paychecks are cancelled.
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I wonder whether the Ukrainian army will take advantage of this unexpected turn of events to further reclaim territory in the east.
In my opinion, amidst the chaos, confusion and possibly Putin being hidden within a super bunker, busy on not getting removed from the Kremlin represented and unprecedented opportunity for the defenders to break lines.

Unless, the Ukrainian army is waiting to see how many Wagner mercenaries end up joining their lines or escape towards Kiev.
Whether he decides to threaten Putin and the military command or nor, the trust of Putin and the image he wanted to give for the rest of the world to see is already undermined with these news.  Tongue


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So, seems that circus is over, Prigozhin ordered Wagner convoy to turn back and return to their camps. Lukashenko says that Prigozhin accepted his proposal after some negotiations, criminal case against Prigozhin also was dropped.
So, does it means that Putin reached agreement with terrorists and things will go on like nothing didn't happned. I just remind that during this rebellion Russian army lost six helicopters, transport plane and somehwere 10-15 troops.
Probably this photo summarizes things that happened in last 24 hours best:

BTW seems that this my post didn't aged badly and now it really looks like staged shit:
I have no idea how everything will end, maybe this story will have boring outcome, but my popcorn is ready.

Are you claiming Chechnya attacking Russia now and they are on the verge of taking Moscow?
Wagner is made up of private mercenary's from around the world and a lot of them are Chechen.
Can you please slow down, i need to breath
What!? Are you not confusing something. Where did you got that there is lot Chechens in Wagner group. BTW, while Wagner almost reached Moscow, chechen Kadyrovites who was ready to fight with Wagner still didn't reached Rostov.


Back to war in Ukraine, it looks that Ukraine for the first time so far liberated territory that was occupied since 2014, it happened nearby to Krasnohorivka:
https://tvpworld.com/70807948/ukrainian-forces-liberate-near-donetsk-regions-occupied-since-2014
legendary
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^^^ You constantly miss the most important parts of what you talk about. Look here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.62456285 and then at the article below.


The only relevant question is why does Putin permit the Ukraine conflict to continue?



https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2023/06/23/the-only-relevant-question-is-why-does-putin-permit-the-ukraine-conflict-to-continue/
Nothing reported in the Western media is accurate.  Consider this BBC report from Johnson's Russia List today June 23, 2023:

#1

BBC Monitoring

Ukraine says 680 Russian troops killed in past 24 hours

Some 680 Russian soldiers have been killed in Ukraine over the past 24 hours, the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine said on Facebook on 23 June.

This brings Russia's estimated total losses since the beginning of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine to around 223,330 personnel.

Russia's other total approximate losses include 4,017 (+four over the past 24 hours) tanks, 7,798 (+15) armoured fighting vehicles, 3,985 (+44) artillery systems, 617 MRLS, 379 (+three) air defence systems, 314 warplanes, 307 helicopters, 3,447 (+nine) UAVs, 1,214 cruise missiles, 18 warships/boats, 6,708 (+30) vehicles and fuel tankers, and 545 (+six) pieces of special equipment, the update reads.

There is not one word of truth in this report.
...



Cool
legendary
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Really? Want to bet that its just show and Prigozhin will back off soon?
I bet that that is just a show but why was that necessary? At some point it damaged Putin's reputation and Prigozhin looks like a pussy too. What was the point Cheesy
According to one version, it was an express teleportation of 25,000 bayonets with armored vehicles from the Southern Front along the four-lane M4 highway beyond Voronezh, and from there to Kharkov. But I think there should be versions and more interesting.


Oh yes.. much more interesting versions. But no nee to bet. Putin pays Wagner so all back to normal. Except that Wagner will be going for the same again and again ...

They seem also to be on their way to Moscow.

Moscow in 3 days?

Loading...

There is some information stupid enough to be truth: Roads blocked by traffic to prevent it!

Prigozhin been posting videos for years now with his whereabouts and somehow he is still alive.


What the yippeeyahoo are those loonies doing there? Having a pick-nick out in the open or is the checked floor magnetic?
If he misbehaves he will feel the wrath of the local babushkas, they will deal with him.

The other day in the local mall i had the chance to be any place i wanted.

That tank gonna get a parking ticket.

Then again, maybe its all show arranged by them 2 to root out and get rid of
those that come out of hiding to support "coup"

Keep dreaming. This is about Wagner not getting funds and being required to be part of the army. It happened in the Roman Republic quite a few times.


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I bet that that is just a show but why was that necessary? At some point it damaged Putin's reputation and Prigozhin looks like a pussy too. What was the point Cheesy

To expose and arrest/eliminate those close to Putin that hurried to support "coup"?
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Really? Want to bet that its just show and Prigozhin will back off soon?
I bet that that is just a show but why was that necessary? At some point it damaged Putin's reputation and Prigozhin looks like a pussy too. What was the point Cheesy
According to one version, it was an express teleportation of 25,000 bayonets with armored vehicles from the Southern Front along the four-lane M4 highway beyond Voronezh, and from there to Kharkov. But I think there should be versions and more interesting.
legendary
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Really? Want to bet that its just show and Prigozhin will back off soon?

Too late, Putin already caved in, in his usual chickenshit manner with help from the potato fuhrer.

Yevgeny Prigozhin accepted Aleksandr Lukashenko’s proposal on stopping the advance of Wagner’s armed units in Russia’s territory and on further steps meant to deescalate tensions.

At present an absolutely advantageous and acceptable variant to defuse the situation is available, including safety guarantees for fighters of the private military company Wagner.

Still remains to be seen if Prigozhin gets Shoigu's head in exchange.
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Saw good joke about Russian army:
2021 - 2nd army in the world
2022 - 2nd army in Ukraine
2023 2nd army in Russia.
No, Russian army is actually 3rd army in Russia, the first one is Wagner, the 2nd one is Kadyrovites and Russian Army is the 3rd one.

Really? Want to bet that its just show and Prigozhin will back off soon?
I bet that that is just a show but why was that necessary? At some point it damaged Putin's reputation and Prigozhin looks like a pussy too. What was the point Cheesy
sr. member
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Wagner already went through Lipetsk oblast, Tula oblast and some sources says that they already reached Moscow oblast, though, no comfirmation about it yet. What it looks strange that they are moving without any resistance. Where is glorious Russian army, why we don't see them? So far we mainly saw Rosgvardia who only can fight against peaceful protests, police and some KAMAZ trucks and tractors blocking roads.
Everything looks so strange that I can't believe that's really happening. One thought can't leave my mind that whole this thing can be staged, but why they would need it, I have no idea.
Saw good joke about Russian army:
2021 - 2nd army in the world
2022 - 2nd army in Ukraine
2023 2nd army in Russia.

Really? Want to bet that its just show and Prigozhin will back off soon?
legendary
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They seem also to be on their way to Moscow.

Moscow in 3 days?

Loading...
sr. member
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Wagner already went through Lipetsk oblast, Tula oblast and some sources says that they already reached Moscow oblast, though, no comfirmation about it yet. What it looks strange that they are moving without any resistance. Where is glorious Russian army, why we don't see them? So far we mainly saw Rosgvardia who only can fight against peaceful protests, police and some KAMAZ trucks and tractors blocking roads.
Everything looks so strange that I can't believe that's really happening. One thought can't leave my mind that whole this thing can be staged, but why they would need it, I have no idea.
Saw good joke about Russian army:
2021 - 2nd army in the world
2022 - 2nd army in Ukraine
2023 2nd army in Russia.

Are you claiming Chechnya attacking Russia now and they are on the verge of taking Moscow?
Wagner is made up of private mercenary's from around the world and a lot of them are Chechen.
Can you please slow down, i need to breath
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