Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 20.

DaRude

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Quote from: paxmao on November 18, 2024, 05:21:20 AM

Quote from: DaRude on November 17, 2024, 04:52:55 PM

[...]

Well looks like after RU showed it intentions on UA's power grid before the winter, Biden gave his approval for 300km ATACMS. Let's see what changes it'll bring, and what will Zelenskiy ask for next.

Point stands, Russia had a warm water port in Crimea before this started. You gave me an idea, during the negotiations, instead of transferring RU claimed land not under RU control, they can just sign a lease, like US did with Cuba, everyone should be happy with that, right?

Sure spheres of influence change all the time, but on the periphery, no one should act surprised at the results of bringing cookies right to the boarder.

That seems what the news are saying. They could have choose to "notify by doing" instead of publishing it, so I guess there a reason why the filtered that to the press instead of simply letting Ruzzia find out after getting 20 or 30 planes destroyed.

What will he ask next? Ukraine has always asked for the same thing: Go back home and make little Ruzzians with your wives instead of coming to Ukraine to kill Ukrainians while getting killed in the process of trying.

BTW, ATACAMS is not really that long range. Ruzzia will need to pull aviation further away, depots further away and be mindful that will get hit back when attacking the Ukrainian infrastructure. My guess is that the US government has considered that they have to keep "demilitarising" Ruzzia quickly as Putin is trying and failing to recover Kursk quickly.

Perhaps is like both know there is a deadline for armed actions.

Any bet on the first targets? Tangarog airbase maybe?

Think you already know the answer to that question. The reason is, as with all previous deliveries, they all coincidentally come too little and too late. Just enough to raise the morale and have a shiny headlines, not enough to effect anything, but slows the bleeding enough to keep UA fighting just a bit longer. Luckily for us all, there's a ton of communications happening behind closed doors, even Iran notified Israel before attacking. The outcome has already been decided and we're just watching the last hand being played out.

You funny. What miracle weapon UA will ask west for next: switchblades, javelins, M777, HIMARS, Patriots, Abrams, Leopards, F16, ATACMS ... we all see how effective they all were, surely the next one must make a difference.

Quote from: https://www.axios.com/2024/11/17/biden-ukraine-russia-missiles-north-korea-response

Biden lets Ukraine use U.S.-supplied long-range missiles in Russia's Kursk region
...
A source with knowledge of the issue confirmed the Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) was only authorized for use in the Kursk area, where North Korean troops have been deployed.
...
U.S. officials hope that if North Korean troops in Kursk are hit, Pyongyang might review its decision to send troops to Russia and the Russian counterattack in Kursk will fail.
...
A Russia expert from the think-tank the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD) told reporters the authorization should not be limited to the Kursk region and said Biden should drop the restriction.

So no Tangarog, RU had plenty of time to move the planes but looks like they want to attack UA power grid a bit more before the winter and needed even more time before the inconvenience of relocating planes further back. So most likely UA will just pound some sand in Kursk to send a message to North Korea. Which will surely have profound effect on North Korea because we all know how much they care about +/- 10.000 of their people Roll Eyes

paxmao

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Quote from: DaRude on November 17, 2024, 04:52:55 PM

[...]

Well looks like after RU showed it intentions on UA's power grid before the winter, Biden gave his approval for 300km ATACMS. Let's see what changes it'll bring, and what will Zelenskiy ask for next.

Point stands, Russia had a warm water port in Crimea before this started. You gave me an idea, during the negotiations, instead of transferring RU claimed land not under RU control, they can just sign a lease, like US did with Cuba, everyone should be happy with that, right?

Sure spheres of influence change all the time, but on the periphery, no one should act surprised at the results of bringing cookies right to the boarder.

That seems what the news are saying. They could have choose to "notify by doing" instead of publishing it, so I guess there a reason why the filtered that to the press instead of simply letting Ruzzia find out after getting 20 or 30 planes destroyed.

What will he ask next? Ukraine has always asked for the same thing: Go back home and make little Ruzzians with your wives instead of coming to Ukraine to kill Ukrainians while getting killed in the process of trying.

BTW, ATACAMS is not really that long range. Ruzzia will need to pull aviation further away, depots further away and be mindful that will get hit back when attacking the Ukrainian infrastructure. My guess is that the US government has considered that they have to keep "demilitarising" Ruzzia quickly as Putin is trying and failing to recover Kursk quickly.

Perhaps is like both know there is a deadline for armed actions.

Any bet on the first targets? Tangarog airbase maybe?

LazerRazer

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So Ukraine was allowed to use missiles at full capacity. waiting for.

BADecker

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Looks like Joe Biden is trying to make Trump's win a moot subject. How? Worldwide nuclear war.

Is Joe Biden Trying To Start World War 3 Before He Leaves Office?

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/is-joe-biden-trying-to-start-world-war-3-before-he-leaves-office-the-decision-to-use-long-range-missiles-to-strike-targets-deep-inside-russia-is-insane/
As if everything that Joe Biden has done so far was not enough, now he has decided to push us to the brink of nuclear war. On Sunday, Joe Biden decided to allow Ukraine to use long-range missiles provided by the United States to hit targets deep inside of Russia. This is a bombshell. I don't know how else to put it. The Russians have already warned us how they will respond if long-range missiles provided by the United States and other NATO countries start raining down on their cities. Sadly, most Americans have no idea what a direct conflict with Russia would mean.

When I first heard what Joe Biden had done, I reacted very emotionally.

I am still feeling very emotional at this moment.

Everyone needs to clearly understand what just happened, because this is a major turning point…

...

DaRude

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Quote from: paxmao on November 17, 2024, 03:18:14 PM

Quote from: DaRude on November 17, 2024, 10:16:07 AM

Quote from: paxmao on November 16, 2024, 05:46:06 PM

Quote from: DaRude on November 14, 2024, 08:16:52 PM

Quote from: paxmao on November 14, 2024, 12:26:15 PM

[...]

As usual, Ukraine needs to make sure there are plenty of expensive and irreplaceable assets destroyed in Ruzzia daily, so that eventually the scale starts weighting more towards a peace in reasonable terms for Ukraine. One billion here in oil, half billion there in ammo, 100 million destroying planes,... etc. There is a lot to choose from and drones are not expensive.

And how exactly do you expect that Russian general, that's tasked with nuclear deterrence/retaliation watching the radar screen, to know if US ballistic missile with possible nuclear payload crossing the Russian boarder from Ukraine, with general trajectory towards Moscow will actually come down from space at some oil facilities before it reaches Moscow? I guess you expect him to know all possible trajectories that are crossing paths with St. Petersburg, Novosibirsk, Yekaterinburg, all RU nuclear cites, RU nuclear power plants, nuke early warning radars etc etc etc... Does anyone care to ask the rest of the world if they're ok with that? Stop playing dumb

Look at the Median Age, Fertility etc if the goal is to get to 100 couples they're doing a good job.

Trump has lied and broken tons of promise before, so I wouldn't read much into his "promises". With that said, if he was serious about it he could just say that there will be no new aid for Ukraine, period, and that Ukraine has until January 21 to make the best deal it can. Then have backdoor talks with Russia decide on the compromise and pass to Ukraine what they should agree to. If Zelenskiy decided to ignore that, his inner circle and generals would quickly make Z understand that he's in no position to go against the will of US, and you're delusional if you think otherwise.

Anyone who has ever looked at the globe realizes that Russia is not in it for the territory. Russia cannot allow Ukraine to fall under US's sphere of influence. So securing Russia's influence, culture, granting Russian language official status in UA constitution... , and no NATO would take priority over square kilometers of land. i.e. agree for UA to hold the land for X years and then referendum, in return of putting Yanukovych (or someone like that) back in Kyiv.

Independent Ukraine is impossible, even Switzerland is not independent anymore. It must fall under some sphere of influence, and as we all see, Russia cannot allow Nuland's cookies in anymore.

Everyone realizes that Russia cannot hold on forever, just as everyone realizes that Russia doesn't have to as Ukraine would collapse socially, politically, and militarily way before Russia does. So continuing this is just an exercise in futility

I expect that Ruzzia notices that they cannot distinguish one from another and decide to leave Ukraine so that they do not have any missiles flying towards Moscow. BTW I do not think ATACAMS can carry nuclear warheads.

Russia is absolutely in for the territory. Firstly to have warm water ports (Crimea) and also, not for the territory as for the square meters, but for the territory in terms of keeping distance with NATO and with possible nuclear missiles launch sites. Please, do not make people laugh pretending Putin is on this for the good of the Ruzzian language or the like.

Right, well your wishful thinking is just not something that the rest of the world is willing to bet their lives on. (Don't think ATACMS can carry nuclear payload either, but it doesn't mean it cannot be modified to do so, plus how would you differentiate it from the profile of a ballistic missile that can at launch).

Did Russia not have the warm water ports in Crimea before this? Once again, this is about spheres of influence, not sure what is so hard for you to understand about this. That means just as with Belarus, the lines on the map don't matter as much as which sphere the whole country falls under. And that includes culture, language, heritage etc... Exactly the reason why Ukrainian government does everything it can to [...]

[...]

The detection of ballistic missiles, the place of its launch and where are they heading has quite a bit of science to it, but that's for another day.

Again, if you have an enemy in front that has ballistic missiles that - that is your assumption, which I think is wrong - can have nuclear warheads and you do not know if what they launch is or not a nuclear warhead, the safest and best option is to leave that enemy alone them alone. Problem solved.

Crimea was Ukrainian "before this", meaning by "this" the illegal annexation by Ruzzia of territories of another country, namely Ukraine (in this case, one of many). Ukraine could decide on who could use the ports, which were rented to Ruzzia before 2014. Rented, not given.

Spheres of influence are effectively easy to understand, what seems difficult for you to accept is that they are not immobile and they do not last forever particularly if a preeminent nation looses the cold war but pretends that did not happen. The USSR is gone in all senses, Putin trying to rebuild (in territory) will only cause further destruction.

Musk is on the side of Musk and will say whatever is good for... guess who.

Well looks like after RU showed it intentions on UA's power grid before the winter, Biden gave his approval for 300km ATACMS. Let's see what changes it'll bring, and what will Zelenskiy ask for next.

Point stands, Russia had a warm water port in Crimea before this started. You gave me an idea, during the negotiations, instead of transferring RU claimed land not under RU control, they can just sign a lease, like US did with Cuba, everyone should be happy with that, right?

Sure spheres of influence change all the time, but on the periphery, no one should act surprised at the results of bringing cookies right to the boarder.

BADecker

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Zelensky - the comedian pervert - is slowly changing his tune. He admits that Ukraine's position in the war is dire. Yet he tries to make a strong defense for his and the Ukraine government's continuing the war effort. He essentially, cleverly contradicts his own expressing that Ukraine has any strength left at all. After all, he is making a lot of money off the US, even if a little of it trickles into the war effort.

Elon Musk Roasts Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy with a Savage Reply After Zelenskyy Laughs Off Possibility of Trump Negotiating an End to Ukraine-Russia War (VIDEO)

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/11/elon-musk-roasts-ukrainian-president-volodymyr-zelenskyy-savage/
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is in for a rude awakening after he had his way shaking down the Biden-Harris regime for billions of dollars to fund the never-ending war with Russia.

On Friday, Zelenskyy interviewed with Ukraine's public radio broadcaster Suspilne to discuss the prospects for the current battlefield situation and potentially ending the war. He also acknowledged the situation in eastern Ukraine was becoming quite dire, with Russia making notable advances.

Despite this, he laughed off the possibility of President-elect Donald Trump sitting at the negotiating table and ending the war. Trump had previously pledged he would end the conflict in one day.

Zelenskyy, though, implied that Trump was off his rocker, ignoring the fact this was the same man who wrote the world-famous book The Art of The Deal.

"No, I think he does not say that," Zelenskyy stated while chuckling. "We are an independent Ukraine, and it seems to me that during this war, our people, and I personally, in negotiations with the United States and with Trump, Biden, and other European leaders, have proven that with us the rhetoric of sit and just listen is not working."

WATCH:
...

paxmao

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Quote from: DaRude on November 17, 2024, 10:16:07 AM

Quote from: paxmao on November 16, 2024, 05:46:06 PM

Quote from: DaRude on November 14, 2024, 08:16:52 PM

Quote from: paxmao on November 14, 2024, 12:26:15 PM

[...]

As usual, Ukraine needs to make sure there are plenty of expensive and irreplaceable assets destroyed in Ruzzia daily, so that eventually the scale starts weighting more towards a peace in reasonable terms for Ukraine. One billion here in oil, half billion there in ammo, 100 million destroying planes,... etc. There is a lot to choose from and drones are not expensive.

And how exactly do you expect that Russian general, that's tasked with nuclear deterrence/retaliation watching the radar screen, to know if US ballistic missile with possible nuclear payload crossing the Russian boarder from Ukraine, with general trajectory towards Moscow will actually come down from space at some oil facilities before it reaches Moscow? I guess you expect him to know all possible trajectories that are crossing paths with St. Petersburg, Novosibirsk, Yekaterinburg, all RU nuclear cites, RU nuclear power plants, nuke early warning radars etc etc etc... Does anyone care to ask the rest of the world if they're ok with that? Stop playing dumb

Look at the Median Age, Fertility etc if the goal is to get to 100 couples they're doing a good job.

Trump has lied and broken tons of promise before, so I wouldn't read much into his "promises". With that said, if he was serious about it he could just say that there will be no new aid for Ukraine, period, and that Ukraine has until January 21 to make the best deal it can. Then have backdoor talks with Russia decide on the compromise and pass to Ukraine what they should agree to. If Zelenskiy decided to ignore that, his inner circle and generals would quickly make Z understand that he's in no position to go against the will of US, and you're delusional if you think otherwise.

Anyone who has ever looked at the globe realizes that Russia is not in it for the territory. Russia cannot allow Ukraine to fall under US's sphere of influence. So securing Russia's influence, culture, granting Russian language official status in UA constitution... , and no NATO would take priority over square kilometers of land. i.e. agree for UA to hold the land for X years and then referendum, in return of putting Yanukovych (or someone like that) back in Kyiv.

Independent Ukraine is impossible, even Switzerland is not independent anymore. It must fall under some sphere of influence, and as we all see, Russia cannot allow Nuland's cookies in anymore.

Everyone realizes that Russia cannot hold on forever, just as everyone realizes that Russia doesn't have to as Ukraine would collapse socially, politically, and militarily way before Russia does. So continuing this is just an exercise in futility

I expect that Ruzzia notices that they cannot distinguish one from another and decide to leave Ukraine so that they do not have any missiles flying towards Moscow. BTW I do not think ATACAMS can carry nuclear warheads.

Russia is absolutely in for the territory. Firstly to have warm water ports (Crimea) and also, not for the territory as for the square meters, but for the territory in terms of keeping distance with NATO and with possible nuclear missiles launch sites. Please, do not make people laugh pretending Putin is on this for the good of the Ruzzian language or the like.

Right, well your wishful thinking is just not something that the rest of the world is willing to bet their lives on. (Don't think ATACMS can carry nuclear payload either, but it doesn't mean it cannot be modified to do so, plus how would you differentiate it from the profile of a ballistic missile that can at launch).

Did Russia not have the warm water ports in Crimea before this? Once again, this is about spheres of influence, not sure what is so hard for you to understand about this. That means just as with Belarus, the lines on the map don't matter as much as which sphere the whole country falls under. And that includes culture, language, heritage etc... Exactly the reason why Ukrainian government does everything it can to [...]

[...]

The detection of ballistic missiles, the place of its launch and where are they heading has quite a bit of science to it, but that's for another day.

Again, if you have an enemy in front that has ballistic missiles that - that is your assumption, which I think is wrong - can have nuclear warheads and you do not know if what they launch is or not a nuclear warhead, the safest and best option is to leave that enemy alone them alone. Problem solved.

Crimea was Ukrainian "before this", meaning by "this" the illegal annexation by Ruzzia of territories of another country, namely Ukraine (in this case, one of many). Ukraine could decide on who could use the ports, which were rented to Ruzzia before 2014. Rented, not given.

Spheres of influence are effectively easy to understand, what seems difficult for you to accept is that they are not immobile and they do not last forever particularly if a preeminent nation looses the cold war but pretends that did not happen. The USSR is gone in all senses, Putin trying to rebuild (in territory) will only cause further destruction.

Musk is on the side of Musk and will say whatever is good for... guess who.

DaRude

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Quote from: Yudhisthir on November 17, 2024, 01:35:56 PM

Quote from: DaRude on November 17, 2024, 10:16:07 AM

What might have Elon found most Funny?

1. US can't force Ukraine to negotiation table.
2. Ukraine is an independent country.
3. Zelensky is the president and represents the voice of Ukraine.

Haha yeah, sure, keep on thinking that.

Yudhisthir

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Quote from: DaRude on November 17, 2024, 10:16:07 AM

What might have Elon found most Funny?

1. US can't force Ukraine to negotiation table.
2. Ukraine is an independent country.
3. Zelensky is the president and represents the voice of Ukraine.

DaRude

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Quote from: paxmao on November 16, 2024, 05:46:06 PM

Quote from: DaRude on November 14, 2024, 08:16:52 PM

Quote from: paxmao on November 14, 2024, 12:26:15 PM

[...]

As usual, Ukraine needs to make sure there are plenty of expensive and irreplaceable assets destroyed in Ruzzia daily, so that eventually the scale starts weighting more towards a peace in reasonable terms for Ukraine. One billion here in oil, half billion there in ammo, 100 million destroying planes,... etc. There is a lot to choose from and drones are not expensive.

And how exactly do you expect that Russian general, that's tasked with nuclear deterrence/retaliation watching the radar screen, to know if US ballistic missile with possible nuclear payload crossing the Russian boarder from Ukraine, with general trajectory towards Moscow will actually come down from space at some oil facilities before it reaches Moscow? I guess you expect him to know all possible trajectories that are crossing paths with St. Petersburg, Novosibirsk, Yekaterinburg, all RU nuclear cites, RU nuclear power plants, nuke early warning radars etc etc etc... Does anyone care to ask the rest of the world if they're ok with that? Stop playing dumb

Look at the Median Age, Fertility etc if the goal is to get to 100 couples they're doing a good job.

Trump has lied and broken tons of promise before, so I wouldn't read much into his "promises". With that said, if he was serious about it he could just say that there will be no new aid for Ukraine, period, and that Ukraine has until January 21 to make the best deal it can. Then have backdoor talks with Russia decide on the compromise and pass to Ukraine what they should agree to. If Zelenskiy decided to ignore that, his inner circle and generals would quickly make Z understand that he's in no position to go against the will of US, and you're delusional if you think otherwise.

Anyone who has ever looked at the globe realizes that Russia is not in it for the territory. Russia cannot allow Ukraine to fall under US's sphere of influence. So securing Russia's influence, culture, granting Russian language official status in UA constitution... , and no NATO would take priority over square kilometers of land. i.e. agree for UA to hold the land for X years and then referendum, in return of putting Yanukovych (or someone like that) back in Kyiv.

Independent Ukraine is impossible, even Switzerland is not independent anymore. It must fall under some sphere of influence, and as we all see, Russia cannot allow Nuland's cookies in anymore.

Everyone realizes that Russia cannot hold on forever, just as everyone realizes that Russia doesn't have to as Ukraine would collapse socially, politically, and militarily way before Russia does. So continuing this is just an exercise in futility

I expect that Ruzzia notices that they cannot distinguish one from another and decide to leave Ukraine so that they do not have any missiles flying towards Moscow. BTW I do not think ATACAMS can carry nuclear warheads.

Russia is absolutely in for the territory. Firstly to have warm water ports (Crimea) and also, not for the territory as for the square meters, but for the territory in terms of keeping distance with NATO and with possible nuclear missiles launch sites. Please, do not make people laugh pretending Putin is on this for the good of the Ruzzian language or the like.

Right, well your wishful thinking is just not something that the rest of the world is willing to bet their lives on. (Don't think ATACMS can carry nuclear payload either, but it doesn't mean it cannot be modified to do so, plus how would you differentiate it from the profile of a ballistic missile that can at launch).

Did Russia not have the warm water ports in Crimea before this? Once again, this is about spheres of influence, not sure what is so hard for you to understand about this. That means just as with Belarus, the lines on the map don't matter as much as which sphere the whole country falls under. And that includes culture, language, heritage etc... Exactly the reason why Ukrainian government does everything it can to fight it, like by banning Russian books and introduce “language inspectors” to fight against the increasing use of Russian. Whether Russian language and culture will get a protected status or LGBT get protected status during the upcoming negotiations will be a clear indicator which sphere the powers will decide the Ukraine will fall under. (not saying this issue is a root cause but just a good indicator)

Ukraine being an independent country and the global power behind it cannot make it "sit and listen" is just propaganda, delusional belief pushed by Zelenskiy on his poor people. And is just as believable as Cuba saying that its an independent country and makes its own choices towards the end of the cold war. Musk's reaction is harsh, but it's on point

paxmao

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Do not die for Putin

Quote from: DaRude on November 14, 2024, 08:16:52 PM

Quote from: paxmao on November 14, 2024, 12:26:15 PM

[...]

As usual, Ukraine needs to make sure there are plenty of expensive and irreplaceable assets destroyed in Ruzzia daily, so that eventually the scale starts weighting more towards a peace in reasonable terms for Ukraine. One billion here in oil, half billion there in ammo, 100 million destroying planes,... etc. There is a lot to choose from and drones are not expensive.

And how exactly do you expect that Russian general, that's tasked with nuclear deterrence/retaliation watching the radar screen, to know if US ballistic missile with possible nuclear payload crossing the Russian boarder from Ukraine, with general trajectory towards Moscow will actually come down from space at some oil facilities before it reaches Moscow? I guess you expect him to know all possible trajectories that are crossing paths with St. Petersburg, Novosibirsk, Yekaterinburg, all RU nuclear cites, RU nuclear power plants, nuke early warning radars etc etc etc... Does anyone care to ask the rest of the world if they're ok with that? Stop playing dumb

Look at the Median Age, Fertility etc if the goal is to get to 100 couples they're doing a good job.

Trump has lied and broken tons of promise before, so I wouldn't read much into his "promises". With that said, if he was serious about it he could just say that there will be no new aid for Ukraine, period, and that Ukraine has until January 21 to make the best deal it can. Then have backdoor talks with Russia decide on the compromise and pass to Ukraine what they should agree to. If Zelenskiy decided to ignore that, his inner circle and generals would quickly make Z understand that he's in no position to go against the will of US, and you're delusional if you think otherwise.

Anyone who has ever looked at the globe realizes that Russia is not in it for the territory. Russia cannot allow Ukraine to fall under US's sphere of influence. So securing Russia's influence, culture, granting Russian language official status in UA constitution... , and no NATO would take priority over square kilometers of land. i.e. agree for UA to hold the land for X years and then referendum, in return of putting Yanukovych (or someone like that) back in Kyiv.

Independent Ukraine is impossible, even Switzerland is not independent anymore. It must fall under some sphere of influence, and as we all see, Russia cannot allow Nuland's cookies in anymore.

Everyone realizes that Russia cannot hold on forever, just as everyone realizes that Russia doesn't have to as Ukraine would collapse socially, politically, and militarily way before Russia does. So continuing this is just an exercise in futility

I expect that Ruzzia notices that they cannot distinguish one from another and decide to leave Ukraine so that they do not have any missiles flying towards Moscow. BTW I do not think ATACAMS can carry nuclear warheads.

Russia is absolutely in for the territory. Firstly to have warm water ports (Crimea) and also, not for the territory as for the square meters, but for the territory in terms of keeping distance with NATO and with possible nuclear missiles launch sites. Please, do not make people laugh pretending Putin is on this for the good of the Ruzzian language or the like.

BADecker

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Quote from: paxmao on November 15, 2024, 07:59:20 PM

Quote from: BADecker on November 15, 2024, 07:10:08 PM

^^^ "I guess that as a result of this war Ukraine may get ~~nukes~~ nuked." Corrected that for you.

---

Now why, do you think, America is so strong that Churchill would make a remark like that?

Cool

If Ukraine does not get guarantees of protection, Ukraine will build it's own guarantee - just to even things out. It is not that difficult in technical terms and it is obvious that Putin is ok with killing and invading Ukraine, so good incentives indeed.

Really BA? The question cannot get any more stupid.

It starts with "nu" and ends in "kes", but also the US was a winner in WW I and WW II, much more so than Ruzzia. Large country, strong economy, strong army (compared with the rest). There is no secret to it BA your question is stupid.

And the US is going to be again the only winner in the Ukrainian war: sold expensive gas to Europe, gave just enough so that Ruzzia de-militarises itself against Ukraine, gets China and Ruzzia sanctioned, Ruzzian economy in shambles, population issues all over, refugees in Europe, etc. And all that military aid you complain so much about has created death in Ruzzia and Ukraine, but many jobs in the US.

However, it would be foolish to thing that as the world is now the US can take everything on and it seems that the new government is quite confused about who are the allies and the difference between and ally and a servant.

Lol. Well, thanks. So you think Ukraine will build its own guarantees? Perhaps like it has been doing since February 24, 2022? Perhaps like it has taken back the Black Sea Corridor?

Now, I certainly don't know what will happen. But Ukraine is done. Even you see it now, and that is why you continue to project and prophesy. Anything Ukraine can do, Russia can do better and more of. I'm not downplaying the bravery of the Ukraine troops. But there is a time to stop if you want to keep the little you have left, and Ukraine has gone way beyond that stop point.

Regarding US nukes, Churchill didn't mean that at all. The thing that he was referring to was American unity, and the faithful willingness of Americans to unite in FREEDOM in a time of need - like the death of an American soldier. Russian nukes are the deterrent to US nukes, right up to today... even if they weren't quite yet at the time of Churchill. Nukes mean nothing without the desire or guts to use them.

Cool

tvbcof

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Quote from: paxmao on November 15, 2024, 05:55:20 AM

...
- A functioning government to avoid being a failed estate (e.g. Yemen, Haiti).
- A population mass, including young people in working age.
- A territory that is defendable and can be governed.
...

Zelensky made sure that none of that is happening. Call it "pay-back time":

https://www.bitchute.com/video/Fg5VB2XvZA8Q

Act-II is the _Trillion_ or so that 'Ukraine' was projected to need for 'reconstruction' to be paid by 'the nations'. This to be funneled through the current majority owner of Ukraine (Blackrock/Fink) with doubtless the same accounting standards which were used for the NATO weapons and other tens or hundreds of Billions thrown at Ukraine over the last decade or so.

The half-trillion or whatever will go a lot farther without all those Ukrainians to feed and house.

DaRude

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Quote from: paxmao on November 15, 2024, 03:51:24 PM

Look, about the cookies you are getting boring.

I think is time you start acknowledging that you are sitting at a table full of cheaters playing poker - and Ruzzia is no exception - and you are accusing the others of cheating better than you. Ruzzia has massively interfered with every European election, with the US election and has used money to buy anyone for sale in the European parliament, in Ukraine, in Chechenia, in the UK and in half of Africa. You may wish to keep pretending otherwise, but there is a big, ugly trail of reports, news and evidence backing it.

So, if you think that cookies are the reason, then you need to make your cookies sweeter because, again, Ruzzia is doing pretty much all the repertoire of manipulation, interference, money handling, disinformation... And speaking of deals, it has been proven that a deal with Putin makes just good toilet paper.

But to things that matter:

There are many countries that share resources with he western countries- just as many countries "share" resources with Ruzzia, sometimes willingly I guess.

Ukraine is offering a commercial partnership with the right partners that will not threaten an invasion as a negotiation tool. It is clear that the future path of an independent Ukraine is to be ready to defend itself and to be ready for EU investments. And again, if Ruzzia and you personally do not like it, then you'd need to think what did Ruzzia do wrong.

On Ukrainian troops in Europe, I think it is a stupid idea. The whole idea of having US troops in Europe is to make an strike an act of war with the US and the best position for Ukrainian troops strategically is in Ukraine or Kursk

https://carnegieendowment.org/europe/strategic-europe/2014/06/judy-asks-should-nato-have-bases-in-its-east?lang=en

I guess that as a result of this war Ukraine may get nukes.

Quote

A quote attributed to Churchill captures that spirit: he is supposed to have said that he needed one American soldier, “preferably dead,” to ensure the defense of Europe.

Ah so you're finally starting to pick up on the game, good! But you're once again defaulting to absolutes without context as you usually like to do. Sure, Russia is also attempting to "play" the game, but it's a newcomer to this table. The real question is how are Russian actions around the globe compare to what the "west" is doing? You'll see that the difference is in magnitudes!

Since the Cuban missile crisis, humanity forced the game to adopt few unwritten rules, one being that countries in direct proximity/on the boarder can be considered an existential threats, and are thus off limits, Cuba was in American "backyard". There were challenges in Africa, LatAm, middle east etc.. but we all stayed safe until that rule was broken in Ukraine with the culmination being Nuland's cookies and the "Fuck the EU" comment. That challenged the world's status quo, after which the two outcomes were either a total collapse of Russia (and then China), or the status quo is restored.

As I've mentioned many times before, the weigh categories are different, Russia just cannot compete with the amount of cookies US has. And that's the exact reason why the cookies were chosen for Ukraine. The irony in that is that now China picked up on the game and now spreads it's own "cookies", so in a typical hypocritical manner now everyone needs to be convinced that China should not be allowed to buy influence with their cookies.

When one country managed to make itself totally dependent on the other, even for such basics as the salary of its government, the "commercial partnership" is just a nice name for being a vassal, which has zero leverage to negotiate. It started with Ukraine accepting tasty cookies, it's ending with Ukraine offering it's resources itself, which doesn't even look like the west will even accept. Ingenious foresight and a master play by Ukrainian government.

If you think that in any scenario Ukraine will be allowed to get nukes (by either side), that just shows your total ignorance at what this conflict is all about.

paxmao

legendary

Activity: 2436

Merit: 1634

Do not die for Putin

Quote from: BADecker on November 15, 2024, 07:10:08 PM

^^^ "I guess that as a result of this war Ukraine may get ~~nukes~~ nuked." Corrected that for you.

---

Now why, do you think, America is so strong that Churchill would make a remark like that?

Cool

If Ukraine does not get guarantees of protection, Ukraine will build it's own guarantee - just to even things out. It is not that difficult in technical terms and it is obvious that Putin is ok with killing and invading Ukraine, so good incentives indeed.

Really BA? The question cannot get any more stupid.

It starts with "nu" and ends in "kes", but also the US was a winner in WW I and WW II, much more so than Ruzzia. Large country, strong economy, strong army (compared with the rest). There is no secret to it BA your question is stupid.

And the US is going to be again the only winner in the Ukrainian war: sold expensive gas to Europe, gave just enough so that Ruzzia de-militarises itself against Ukraine, gets China and Ruzzia sanctioned, Ruzzian economy in shambles, population issues all over, refugees in Europe, etc. And all that military aid you complain so much about has created death in Ruzzia and Ukraine, but many jobs in the US.

However, it would be foolish to thing that as the world is now the US can take everything on and it seems that the new government is quite confused about who are the allies and the difference between and ally and a servant.

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 4060

Merit: 1390

^^^ "I guess that as a result of this war Ukraine may get ~~nukes~~ nuked." Corrected that for you.

---

Now why, do you think, America is so strong that Churchill would make a remark like that?

Cool

paxmao

legendary

Activity: 2436

Merit: 1634

Do not die for Putin

Quote from: DaRude on November 15, 2024, 11:24:11 AM

Quote from: paxmao on November 15, 2024, 05:55:20 AM

Quote from: Branko on November 14, 2024, 12:29:20 PM

Ukraine is already backpedaling and saying that "territory is not that important"

https://news-pravda.com/ukraine/2024/11/14/851097.html

Regardless of the accuracy, there is a hierarchy of priorities in life, in politics and in country and it is important to get those priorities right. For example, if you are Europe, you may care much more about your survival than about paying gas more expensive.

If you are Ukraine, the priority is to have a viable independent country. This requires as a bare minimum:

- A functioning government to avoid being a failed estate (e.g. Yemen, Haiti).
- A population mass, including young people in working age.
- A territory that is defendable and can be governed.

It is important to have:

- Access to the sea (this is rarely spoken about, but Ruzzia lost the battle for the Black Sea).
- Defensible borders (difficult, Ukraine is quite flat).
- A viable economy.
- Sufficient army.

And then there are the nice to haves like recovering all your original territory. But that is the third level of priority, survival and safety come first. As I am sure Ruzzia would be much happier if the had taken Ukraine in 3 days, but had to re-think what was important and what may not be.

However if by the end of the war you have a free Ukraine, defensible, with a government and a economy that can be rebuilt, you can consider it a reasonable - not good - outcome after having Ruzzia thrown everything they got at you.

I would appreciate that anyone with stupid propagandistic comments would refrain from answering, but I guess that is not really possible here is it?

Nothing says independence like offering claims to everything in sight while you still can

Quote from: https://www.ft.com/content/623c197f-6952-4229-bfbc-0a96e43d6f2d

...
One idea would replace some US troops stationed in Europe with Ukrainian forces after the war.

The other — first devised by Republican senator Lindsey Graham, a Trump ally, according to people involved in designing Zelenskyy’s “victory plan” — suggests sharing Ukraine’s critical natural resources with western partners.
...
Separately, business leaders in Ukraine are also talking with the government about offering Trump “investment screening” powers, allowing him to essentially choose who can do business in the country.

Yep, total independence, what else is left in Ukraine that Zelenskiy can give away, perhaps Ukrainians' firstborn?

This is what Ukrainians are fighting for, right? Be a bodyguard for Europe while selling their land, and that's the best case if Trump decides to accept it? Yes, a much better deal for Ukrainian people than what they had in 2013, who wouldn't support such government Roll Eyes

Who's next in line to try these delicious freedom cookies?

Look, about the cookies you are getting boring.

I think is time you start acknowledging that you are sitting at a table full of cheaters playing poker - and Ruzzia is no exception - and you are accusing the others of cheating better than you. Ruzzia has massively interfered with every European election, with the US election and has used money to buy anyone for sale in the European parliament, in Ukraine, in Chechenia, in the UK and in half of Africa. You may wish to keep pretending otherwise, but there is a big, ugly trail of reports, news and evidence backing it.

So, if you think that cookies are the reason, then you need to make your cookies sweeter because, again, Ruzzia is doing pretty much all the repertoire of manipulation, interference, money handling, disinformation... And speaking of deals, it has been proven that a deal with Putin makes just good toilet paper.

But to things that matter:

There are many countries that share resources with he western countries- just as many countries "share" resources with Ruzzia, sometimes willingly I guess.

Ukraine is offering a commercial partnership with the right partners that will not threaten an invasion as a negotiation tool. It is clear that the future path of an independent Ukraine is to be ready to defend itself and to be ready for EU investments. And again, if Ruzzia and you personally do not like it, then you'd need to think what did Ruzzia do wrong.

On Ukrainian troops in Europe, I think it is a stupid idea. The whole idea of having US troops in Europe is to make an strike an act of war with the US and the best position for Ukrainian troops strategically is in Ukraine or Kursk

https://carnegieendowment.org/europe/strategic-europe/2014/06/judy-asks-should-nato-have-bases-in-its-east?lang=en

I guess that as a result of this war Ukraine may get nukes.

Quote

A quote attributed to Churchill captures that spirit: he is supposed to have said that he needed one American soldier, “preferably dead,” to ensure the defense of Europe.

Branko

sr. member

Activity: 2702

Merit: 328

Quote from: paxmao on November 15, 2024, 05:55:20 AM

I would appreciate that anyone with stupid propagandistic comments would refrain from answering, but I guess that is not really possible here is it?

So, you don't want others do what you just did?

DaRude

legendary

Activity: 2938

Merit: 1951

In order to dump coins one must have coins

Quote from: paxmao on November 15, 2024, 05:55:20 AM

Quote from: Branko on November 14, 2024, 12:29:20 PM

Ukraine is already backpedaling and saying that "territory is not that important"

https://news-pravda.com/ukraine/2024/11/14/851097.html

Regardless of the accuracy, there is a hierarchy of priorities in life, in politics and in country and it is important to get those priorities right. For example, if you are Europe, you may care much more about your survival than about paying gas more expensive.

If you are Ukraine, the priority is to have a viable independent country. This requires as a bare minimum:

- A functioning government to avoid being a failed estate (e.g. Yemen, Haiti).
- A population mass, including young people in working age.
- A territory that is defendable and can be governed.

It is important to have:

- Access to the sea (this is rarely spoken about, but Ruzzia lost the battle for the Black Sea).
- Defensible borders (difficult, Ukraine is quite flat).
- A viable economy.
- Sufficient army.

And then there are the nice to haves like recovering all your original territory. But that is the third level of priority, survival and safety come first. As I am sure Ruzzia would be much happier if the had taken Ukraine in 3 days, but had to re-think what was important and what may not be.

However if by the end of the war you have a free Ukraine, defensible, with a government and a economy that can be rebuilt, you can consider it a reasonable - not good - outcome after having Ruzzia thrown everything they got at you.

I would appreciate that anyone with stupid propagandistic comments would refrain from answering, but I guess that is not really possible here is it?

Nothing says independence like offering claims to everything in sight while you still can

Quote from: https://www.ft.com/content/623c197f-6952-4229-bfbc-0a96e43d6f2d

...
One idea would replace some US troops stationed in Europe with Ukrainian forces after the war.

The other — first devised by Republican senator Lindsey Graham, a Trump ally, according to people involved in designing Zelenskyy’s “victory plan” — suggests sharing Ukraine’s critical natural resources with western partners.
...
Separately, business leaders in Ukraine are also talking with the government about offering Trump “investment screening” powers, allowing him to essentially choose who can do business in the country.

Yep, total independence, what else is left in Ukraine that Zelenskiy can give away, perhaps Ukrainians' firstborn?

This is what Ukrainians are fighting for, right? Be a bodyguard for Europe while selling their land, and that's the best case if Trump decides to accept it? Yes, a much better deal for Ukrainian people than what they had in 2013, who wouldn't support such government Roll Eyes

Who's next in line to try these delicious freedom cookies?

paxmao

legendary

Activity: 2436

Merit: 1634

Do not die for Putin

Quote from: Branko on November 14, 2024, 12:29:20 PM

Ukraine is already backpedaling and saying that "territory is not that important"

https://news-pravda.com/ukraine/2024/11/14/851097.html

Regardless of the accuracy, there is a hierarchy of priorities in life, in politics and in country and it is important to get those priorities right. For example, if you are Europe, you may care much more about your survival than about paying gas more expensive.

If you are Ukraine, the priority is to have a viable independent country. This requires as a bare minimum:

- A functioning government to avoid being a failed estate (e.g. Yemen, Haiti).
- A population mass, including young people in working age.
- A territory that is defendable and can be governed.

It is important to have:

- Access to the sea (this is rarely spoken about, but Ruzzia lost the battle for the Black Sea).
- Defensible borders (difficult, Ukraine is quite flat).
- A viable economy.
- Sufficient army.

And then there are the nice to haves like recovering all your original territory. But that is the third level of priority, survival and safety come first. As I am sure Ruzzia would be much happier if the had taken Ukraine in 3 days, but had to re-think what was important and what may not be.

However if by the end of the war you have a free Ukraine, defensible, with a government and a economy that can be rebuilt, you can consider it a reasonable - not good - outcome after having Ruzzia thrown everything they got at you.

I would appreciate that anyone with stupid propagandistic comments would refrain from answering, but I guess that is not really possible here is it?

Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 20. (Read 80293 times)