Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 214. (Read 56669 times)

It will backfire...big part of west economic "success" was based on pouring money into dictatorships, who
would in turn return 90+% of money back to country of capital origin, while those country working class
had to repay that "debt"...who in his right mind will keep money/assets in west countries, if it can
be seized any moment

It's a nice quote, but what's the logic here? Back in 2014 Ukraine was loosing land even without official Russian involvement. Germany and France clearly didn't want to get involved (as today), Ukraine didn't have 8yrs of training and weapons from US, are you saying Ukraine should've fully surrender/got captured back in 2014? Pretty sure that was their plan and Germany/France managed to get Russia to compromise on some land, and now Germany/France are the bad guys for doing that?

And even for today i still can't trace such logic. Are you betting on Russia not fully mobilizing and just surrendering even before mobilization? Or is the bet on Ukraine somehow winning when Russia mobilizes? Or are you pushing for NATO involvement after Russian mobilization aka WW3?

And yes US/EU stole exponentially more of Russian property without any court rulings, think they even sanctioned Ukrainian born billionaire, so much for the idea of genocide

Just stop, you're only making it worse for yourself. Whatboutism about politicians lying in no way covers you lying here to us!




Politicians lie, I'm just shocked   If you show me a politician that doesn't lie, then you'll be the one lying, now how's that relevant to members posting obvious lies on here?

^^^ You are so funny, paxmao. Don't you realize that Putin is offering homesteads in Russia to citizens from everywhere in the world? - https://malaysiandigest.com/putin-offers-millions-of-americans-free-home-in-russia/.

Besides, here's Biden, Pelosi, and the Dems, betting against America by giving away all kinds of military to the Ukraine, and destroying the US in the process. So, who is going to get all that war material when Russia puts down the Ukrainian rebellion? Russia, of course.

You are so silly.

Nobody should. It is giving away territory and concessions just to appease Adolf Putin. Big mistake.


Seize assets (AKA plunder and steal), it seems to me that Ukraine will be rebuilt with the sales of some yatchs, plenty of London ("Londongrad" / "Moscow upon thames") houses and flats in prime districts, gold reserves in custody. There is no way Adolf Putin can try to be "symmetrical" in the sanctions because it is simply beyond his power to do so. In the end, Russia still holds some Soviet era military gadgets, but economically is just another (poorly led) country sending their young to die for no purpose.

"Never bet against America" - Warren Buffet

I haven't looked into this situation in detail, but this may be Russia's symmetrical response to the recent seizure of its assets in Ukraine worth more than a billion dollars. Stop whining, it works both ways. I don't know how much of an idiot you have to be to take money from the Russians and think you can get away with it.

"Russian has always come for their money". (c) Otto von Bismarck

I didn't think this could get any more absurd, but thank you for proving me wrong. Yeah, why aren't farmers complaining, in a territory occupied by a totalitarian regime known to disappear people, when said regime is taking their property. Why didn't the people in Bucha complain on Russian state TV about getting killed?

But yes, "some company" did complain:


Please move the goalposts by no less than 20 meters next time.

Ukraine had excellent starting conditions after the collapse of the USSR, the best of all the union republics. Favorable geographical location, fertile land, developed industry, strong army and navy, resorts, sanatoriums, nuclear energy, no debts. And in just 30 years, you screwed up everything, ended up in complete shit, in a state of bankruptcy. And of course, anyone is to blame for this, but not Ukraine itself. Amazing infantilism.

ps Biden says Ukraine might have to give Russia land in ‘negotiated settlement’

Where is the 'pro Putin establishment'?  If you figure out the answer to that question, you may end up learning something about yourself.  Probably not though.

That is right, Russia lied. They never had any intention of removing their FSB and military from Donbas or Crimea. Merkel and Macron are both
idiots to believe in such nonsense.

This time around, they thought they can pull Crimea 2014 annexation scenario.  You know the "Green Men" on vacation doing their hobbies, we don't know anything about it, it is Ukrainians that wanted the referendum, etc.

Just like before they amassed a 200K army on the border in January, they said that they never intended to invade Ukraine. They lied.

Just like they said they did not invade Ukraine, and at the same time, their forces were storming Kyiv. They were lying.

Just like now, they said they never stole grain and steel from Ukraine. They lied.

Just like now, they said they never target civilian targets, don't rape, don't steal, don't kidnap children, and don't execute civilians.

Guess, what, they lied. And keep lying.

Russkiy Mir, my friend.  Guess what? Their spiel is up. Even the naive westerners caught on, and now the whole civilized world knows
what these terrorists are doing.

You can only trust dead Russians.

If I were in the Ukrainian government I would advise them not to talk to Russians.  Just kill them all on your territory, close the border
completely, create a 1-2km mined buffer zone on the border, and never ever again trade or deal with Russia.  Criminalize communist or Soviet
propaganda, criminalize pro-Russian views, prosecute all pro-Russian advocates, let them leave Ukraine, and ban them from ever entering the
country.

Oh, yeah, once you recover from this clusterfuck, allocate 20% of your GDP to the military, join NATO, and obtain nuclear weapons.

The American rebel that went so hard anti establishment he ended up pro Putin establishment.

After a referendum by the people of Crimea which made it crystal clear that almost none of them had any interest in being terrorized by Nazi filth installed in Kiev by American neo-conservatives.

Speaking of lies, here's a list of Putins top 10 lies about Ukraine, according to the US Dept of State from back in 2014 after he annexed Crimea but before he admitted it publicly.

https://www.businessinsider.com/state-dept-putin-lying-top-10-lies-ukraine-crimea-2014-3

Before you start screaming about US being the liars, remember...Russia did annex Crimea. 

Thank you for acknowledging that Ukraine didn't implement those two points. Words have meanings, you should look up differences between "impossible" and "undesirable"!

1) "did Ukraine abide by the Minsk agreements from 2014 until 2022?" -> "Of course, they did."
2) "This point was not fulfilled by Russia. It was impossible to accomplish anything else with Russia."

That is objectively called lying! You're not going to raise any support by lying! You can't expect anyone with half a brain to fall for such cheap trick! You can finger point all day long, explain how they weren't fair, or provide reasons why Ukraine didn't implementing Minsk agreements by blaming DPR/LPR not implementing other points first, that's all fine, but what you cannot do is fool people by saying that Ukraine implemented Minsk agreements. That's just a lie, you ruin any credibility you've had by claiming such nonsense, and trying to make idiots out of the readers!

Read this fucking thing again.

"Pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under OSCE supervision. Disarmament of all illegal groups."

This point was not fulfilled by Russia. It was impossible to accomplish anything else with Russia. They vetoed all UN resolutions to bring peace to this region.

I am even surprised they "agreed" to this point when they knew they never planned to fulfill it. But that is what Russians do, think one thing,
say something else, and do something else altogether.

Not only that, they brought more military and FSB personnel after they signed this agreement.

This conflict was orchestrated by Russia. Both FSB and military were involved first in Crimea and immediately afterward in Donbas when
FSB terrorists captured the Sloviansk police station.  The rest is history.

The Minsk 'agreements' were signed to buy Russia time to ferment more 'pro-Russian' sympathy in Donbas, but when this did not work, we got the Feb 24th invasion as Putin was fed up with Russian speaking Ukrainians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements#Minsk_II,_February_2015

Ugh so now plan put forth by France and Germany in response to offensive by the separatists, dubbed as "last chance" by French president, was coercive and wasn't "lawful"? If Poroshenko who started implementing all of that anti-Russian language laws was Putin's puppet Poroshenko who won with 54,7% (with next in line Tymoshenko receiving 12,8%) wasn't "legitimate government" can you explain who in 2015 should've signed such agreement? And you do realize how this all sounds from the other perspective right? Sure it was put together by France and Germany, due to Ukraine loosing land, and sure our president totally signed it, but we still didn't like it and that's why we didn't implement it   so Ukraine signs the plan to buy more time and started receiving armaments from US

All that the big weapons going from the US to the Ukraine show, is that the Ukraine isn't making it. They keep on needing more and more help, because they are failing.

Yet it solved nothing. What Betwrong says is absolutely right, Adolf Putin must fail because there is no limit to his ambition, including the welfare and even the lives of his "serfs" in the army nor the living of those now unemployed due to foreign investment running away.

This is the moment to stop the Tzar and do so in a way that is for all to be seen.

The Minsk in 2015 agreement was signed by Poroshenko, pretty much a puppet inspired by Adolf Putin. You cannot pretend to implement such a coercive agreement and pretend is "lawful". An agreement has to come from a legitimate government and be signed on mutually beneficial terms - before you say anything "... or else I will invade your country" is not classed as a beneficial term.[/list]

Minsk II, February 2015

• Immediate and full ceasefire in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine and its strict fulfilment as of 00:00 midnight EET on 15 February 2015.
• Pull-out of all heavy weapons by both sides to equal distance with the aim of creation of a security zone on minimum 50 kilometres (31 mi) apart for artillery of 100mm calibre or more, and a security zone of 70 kilometres (43 mi) for multiple rocket launchers (MRLS) and 140 kilometres (87 mi) for MLRS Tornado-S, Uragan, Smerch, and Tochka U tactical missile systems:
  
  • for Ukrainian troops, from actual line of contact;
  • for armed formations of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, from the contact line in accordance with the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014
          The pullout of the above-mentioned heavy weapons must start no later than the second day after the start of the ceasefire and finish within 14 days.
          This process will be assisted by OSCE with the support of the Trilateral Contact Group.

• Effective monitoring and verification of ceasefire regime and pullout of heavy weapons by OSCE will be provided from the first day of pullout, using all necessary technical means such as satellites, drones, radio-location systems etc.
• On the first day after the pullout a dialogue is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," and also about the future of these districts based on the above-mentioned law.
      Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts," based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of 19 September 2014.
• Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine.
• Provide release and exchange of all hostages and illegally held persons, based on the principle of "all for all". This process has to end – at the latest – on the fifth day after the pullout (of weapons).
• Provide safe access, delivery, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid to the needy, based on an international mechanism.
• Define the modalities of a full restoration of social and economic connections, including social transfers, such as payments of pensions and other payments (income and revenue, timely payment of communal bills, restoration of tax payments within the framework of Ukrainian legal field).
      With this aim, Ukraine will restore management over the segment of its banking system in the districts affected by the conflict, and possibly, an international mechanism will be established to ease such transactions.
• Restore control of the state border to the Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.
• Pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under OSCE supervision. Disarmament of all illegal groups.
• Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with a new constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralisation (taking into account peculiarities of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, agreed with representatives of these districts), and also approval of permanent legislation on the special status of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in accordance with the measures spelt out in the attached footnote,[note 1] by the end of 2015.
• Based on the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts", questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.
• Intensify the work of the Trilateral Contact Group including through the establishment of working groups on the implementation of relevant aspects of the Minsk agreements. They will reflect the composition of the Trilateral Contact Group.

Can you point me to how the above highlighted points from Minsk 2 were implemented by Ukraine?

We'll see I guess.  Seems to me that the neocon led West is determined to get a Vietnam cranking along somewhere in the area.  Seems to me that it will be in either Russian Kiev, or non-Russian Kiev.  I'm betting that the Russians are smart enough to arrange the latter.  It's pretty obvious that it won't be in the East or South of pre-2022 Ukraine since the local demographics won't support it.

(On the demographics, I'm either echoing Lira here or he's echoing me...I don't recall.  He said as much, but it was my analysis as well by looking at the situation as carefully as I can as it's been playing out.)

Seems to me that Russia is by no means 'land poor' so they don't particularly need the resources they may leave on the table by ignoring or behaving reactively to what goes on in 'the rump'.  To the degree that they really do care about their 'Slavic brothers', they can easily let them slip through the new borders (and allow them to filter back home armed and trained if they so choose.)  With an open-ended conflict, any attacks from UkRumpistan can be met with a 'kaliberation' pretty much anywhere the Russians feel like doing one (although when Poland formally annexes Lviv and the other areas in the West it might limit their flexibility to a degree.)

I would expect that ultimately the UkRumpistani militants would be focused on causing trouble in the Westward direction anyway.