Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 210. (Read 56669 times)

Quote from: paxmao on June 10, 2022, 05:40:14 PM

Donetsk region within Ukraine. Putin is a powerful man, but he has no power over the Supreme Court of a sovereign state (he doesn't even have power over Russia's Supreme Court).

On paper he don't have such power, but reality is a bit different. And it's fun to hear that Putin dodn't have power over Supreme Court of ''sovereign country, but at the same time he want to change path of sovereign country (Ukraine) and occupy as much as possible territory of it.

It looks like we both know who the most powerful person in the world is and it's not Zelensky. If Putin has enough power to impose a Putin tax on food and gas in the US, as Joe Biden said yesterday, of course he can influence anything - including the fate of two Englishmen and one Moroccan. I don't think the death sentence will be carried out, don't worry about it.

A mercenary is still a soldier IMHO. They can be war criminals or even terrorists if they do not play by the rules, but that is related to their actions, not to their origin nor to the fact that they get paid - if you think of it, the RF soldiers get paid, are they not mercenaries? Are they not going to a foreign country to wage war and die just to steal territory and goods from Ukraine?

There is logic in your words and I think you are right. The soldier of the Russian army, who serves under the contract, is also in a sense a mercenary. It's not a problem to be a mercenary in itself, it only becomes a problem if you were taken prisoner in the DPR and you have some strange passport in an incomprehensible language with you.

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Quote from: Branko on June 10, 2022, 08:41:35 AM

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

You've got it all mixed up again. The trial of the mercenaries took place in the DPR, from the point of view of Russia it is an independent state, from the point of view of Ukraine it is the Donetsk region within Ukraine. Putin is a powerful man, but he has no power over the Supreme Court of a sovereign state (he doesn't even have power over Russia's Supreme Court).

Of the countries that really matter to the case, this "independent state" is only recognised by RF and only sustained thanks to the RF money and weaponry. Stop pretending that something in the RF or the "republics" is done without the seal of the Tzar, nobody is going to believe you.

Again, you can make any argument you want, it does not change the chances for the RF invading army PoWs.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/were-almost-out-of-ammunition-and-relying-on-western-arms-says-ukraine

Ukraine may actually be following it at government level - you can follow the convention even if you do not recognise it.

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

I heard its even worse if officer is present

Officers of the Ukrainian defence army are there to implement the official policies. As of now, the official policy is to follow the rules of war and the Geneva Convention as far as I know. There may be groups in Ukraine that may not have such a degree of discipline, but that is a completely different matter from having an official policy of classing PoWs as "terrorists" and kill them.

All in all, this simply makes life much harder for both RF and Ukrainian soldiers.

I'd be careful challenging independence on the grounds of being sustained thanks to other nation's money and weaponry.

We’re almost out of ammunition and relying on western arms, says Ukraine

Quote

Ukraine’s deputy head of military intelligence has said Ukraine is losing against Russia on the frontlines and is now reliant almost solely on weapons from the west to keep Russia at bay.
...
“This is an artillery war now,” said Vadym Skibitsky, deputy head of Ukraine’s military intelligence.
...
“Everything now depends on what [the west] gives us,” said Skibitsky.
...
“Words turn into actions. That’s the difference between Ukraine’s relationship with Great Britain and other countries,” Zelenskiy said in a video statement. “Weapons, finance, sanctions – on these three issues, Britain shows leadership.”
...
Ukraine is using 5,000 to 6,000 artillery rounds a day, according to Skibitsky. “We have almost used up all of our [artillery] ammunition and are now using 155-calibre Nato standard shells,” he said of the ammunition that is fired from artillery pieces.
...
This week the Ukrainian presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych told the Guardian that Ukraine needed 60 multiple-rocket launchers – many more than the handful promised so far by the UK and US – to have a chance of defeating Russia.

Quote

The latest bill, which had been delayed for a week by the objection of Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, includes money for logistical support and training for Ukrainian military and national security forces, and for a fund intended to secure the continuity of Ukraine’s government.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220609211642/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/05/20/upshot/ukraine-us-aid-size.html

As far as mercenaries, I believe to become Ukrainian citizen they would have to give up their previous citizenship as Ukraine doesn't allow dual citizenship, which apparently didn't happen. How are they different from other mercenaries, or is the claim that there are no mercenaries at all in Ukraine and all foreign fighters fall under Geneva convention now because they signed some paper with UA army? Following that logic Aiden Aslin wasn't a mecenary in Syria as well if he also signed some form there?

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Kyiv refused to comply with the Geneva Convention in relation to Russian prisoners of war. You have a very short and selective memory if you don't remember it.

Is this social media rumor/russian propaganda what you're talking about? Where Ukraine told the UK that it did not intend to follow the GC anymore?

Russian media and social media users are claiming that Ukraine has refused to comply with the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Citing Colonel-General Mikhail Mizintsev, the head of the Russian National Defense Control Center, RIA Novosti claims that on April 1 Ukraine allegedly notified the UK that it had no intention of adhering to the Geneva convention when it comes to treatment of Russian prisoners of war.

https://www.stopfake.org/en/fake-ukraine-revokes-the-geneva-convention/

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Quote from: be.open on June 10, 2022, 11:02:48 AM

You've got it all mixed up again. The trial of the mercenaries took place in the DPR, from the point of view of Russia it is an independent state, from the point of view of Ukraine it is the Donetsk region within Ukraine. Putin is a powerful man, but he has no power over the Supreme Court of a sovereign state (he doesn't even have power over Russia's Supreme Court).

"independent state" LOL

How about getting out of independent states and stop fueling the war, can the great commander slash forever president do that?

Big on independence when it suits him, except doesn't recognize the right to exist of about a dozen independent countries.

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Quote from: be.open on June 10, 2022, 09:04:32 AM

Officers of the Ukrainian defence army are there to implement the official policies. As of now, the official policy is to follow the rules of war and the Geneva Convention as far as I know. There may be groups in Ukraine that may not have such a degree of discipline, but that is a completely different matter from having an official policy of classing PoWs as "terrorists" and kill them.

All in all, this simply makes life much harder for both RF and Ukrainian soldiers.

Mercenaries are not prisoners of war. These people came to Ukraine to kill for money, and they are not entitled to any leniency for their actions. It is better for foreign mercenaries to choose another place for safari, because death or death awaits them here - on the battlefield or as a result of a court verdict. This is an unambiguous and clear signal to those 3,000+ foreign mercenaries who are still fighting on the side of Ukraine - pack your things and go home.

Funny that you say this and at the same time commend the tourists that joined the RF orcs army. So the criteria is that only Ukrainian nationals are soldiers? Then all this guys are terrorists fighting for Adolf Putin:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/24/what-role-is-chechnyas-ramzan-kadyrov-playing-in-ukraine

Quote

Just two days after the Russian invasion of Ukraine was launched, Ramzan Kadyrov, president of Russia’s Chechen Republic, announced his forces were deployed to the battlefield.

They would do well to go back home and use their time making more little Chechens instead of dying (as terrorists) for Putin.

Kadyrov's Chechens are not mercenaries, but a special police regiment as part of the National Guard.

Not to mention these world class tourists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

But the fighters of Wagner's private military company are mercenaries. Although they are fighting on the side of Russia (and seem to be quite successful in combat missions), you have never heard me praise them here.

A mercenary is still a soldier IMHO. They can be war criminals or even terrorists if they do not play by the rules, but that is related to their actions, not to their origin nor to the fact that they get paid - if you think of it, the RF soldiers get paid, are they not mercenaries? Are they not going to a foreign country to wage war and die just to steal territory and goods from Ukraine?

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This is not true or not entirely true. Two citizens of Great Britain and one citizen of Morocco were convicted. As far as I know, the Englishman Sean Pinner is married to a Ukrainian, but this does not automatically make him a Ukrainian.

I don't know Ukraine laws good enough, but I'm not sure that person with Ukrainian citizenship can serve in Ukraine Army. Any way, it doesn't changes fact that they're regular part of Ukraine Army. It's not same as to serve in foreign legion or mercenary.

Donetsk region within Ukraine. Putin is a powerful man, but he has no power over the Supreme Court of a sovereign state (he doesn't even have power over Russia's Supreme Court).

On paper he don't have such power, but reality is a bit different. And it's fun to hear that Putin dodn't have power over Supreme Court of ''sovereign country, but at the same time he want to change path of sovereign country (Ukraine) and occupy as much as possible territory of it.

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Quote from: be.open on June 10, 2022, 09:04:32 AM

Officers of the Ukrainian defence army are there to implement the official policies. As of now, the official policy is to follow the rules of war and the Geneva Convention as far as I know. There may be groups in Ukraine that may not have such a degree of discipline, but that is a completely different matter from having an official policy of classing PoWs as "terrorists" and kill them.

All in all, this simply makes life much harder for both RF and Ukrainian soldiers.

Mercenaries are not prisoners of war. These people came to Ukraine to kill for money, and they are not entitled to any leniency for their actions. It is better for foreign mercenaries to choose another place for safari, because death or death awaits them here - on the battlefield or as a result of a court verdict. This is an unambiguous and clear signal to those 3,000+ foreign mercenaries who are still fighting on the side of Ukraine - pack your things and go home.

Funny that you say this and at the same time commend the tourists that joined the RF orcs army. So the criteria is that only Ukrainian nationals are soldiers? Then all this guys are terrorists fighting for Adolf Putin:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/24/what-role-is-chechnyas-ramzan-kadyrov-playing-in-ukraine

Quote

Just two days after the Russian invasion of Ukraine was launched, Ramzan Kadyrov, president of Russia’s Chechen Republic, announced his forces were deployed to the battlefield.

They would do well to go back home and use their time making more little Chechens instead of dying (as terrorists) for Putin.

Kadyrov's Chechens are not mercenaries, but a special police regiment as part of the National Guard.

Quote from: be.open on June 10, 2022, 09:04:32 AM

Not to mention these world class tourists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

But the fighters of Wagner's private military company are mercenaries. Although they are fighting on the side of Russia (and seem to be quite successful in combat missions), you have never heard me praise them here.

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Officers of the Ukrainian defence army are there to implement the official policies. As of now, the official policy is to follow the rules of war and the Geneva Convention as far as I know. There may be groups in Ukraine that may not have such a degree of discipline, but that is a completely different matter from having an official policy of classing PoWs as "terrorists" and kill them.

All in all, this simply makes life much harder for both RF and Ukrainian soldiers.

Mercenaries are not prisoners of war. These people came to Ukraine to kill for money, and they are not entitled to any leniency for their actions. It is better for foreign mercenaries to choose another place for safari, because death or death awaits them here - on the battlefield or as a result of a court verdict. This is an unambiguous and clear signal to those 3,000+ foreign mercenaries who are still fighting on the side of Ukraine - pack your things and go home.

Funny that you say this and at the same time commend the tourists that joined the RF orcs army. So the criteria is that only Ukrainian nationals are soldiers? Then all this guys are terrorists fighting for Adolf Putin:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/24/what-role-is-chechnyas-ramzan-kadyrov-playing-in-ukraine

Quote

Just two days after the Russian invasion of Ukraine was launched, Ramzan Kadyrov, president of Russia’s Chechen Republic, announced his forces were deployed to the battlefield.

They would do well to go back home and use their time making more little Chechens instead of dying (as terrorists) for Putin.

Not to mention these world class tourists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

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Officers of the Ukrainian defence army are there to implement the official policies. As of now, the official policy is to follow the rules of war and the Geneva Convention as far as I know. There may be groups in Ukraine that may not have such a degree of discipline, but that is a completely different matter from having an official policy of classing PoWs as "terrorists" and kill them.

All in all, this simply makes life much harder for both RF and Ukrainian soldiers.

Mercenaries are not prisoners of war. These people came to Ukraine to kill for money, and they are not entitled to any leniency for their actions. It is better for foreign mercenaries to choose another place for safari, because death or death awaits them here - on the battlefield or as a result of a court verdict. This is an unambiguous and clear signal to those 3,000+ foreign mercenaries who are still fighting on the side of Ukraine - pack your things and go home.

paxmao

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Quote from: Branko on June 10, 2022, 08:41:35 AM

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

You've got it all mixed up again. The trial of the mercenaries took place in the DPR, from the point of view of Russia it is an independent state, from the point of view of Ukraine it is the Donetsk region within Ukraine. Putin is a powerful man, but he has no power over the Supreme Court of a sovereign state (he doesn't even have power over Russia's Supreme Court).

Of the countries that really matter to the case, this "independent state" is only recognised by RF and only sustained thanks to the RF money and weaponry. Stop pretending that something in the RF or the "republics" is done without the seal of the Tzar, nobody is going to believe you.

Again, you can make any argument you want, it does not change the chances for the RF invading army PoWs.

Ukraine may actually be following it at government level - you can follow the convention even if you do not recognise it.

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

I heard its even worse if officer is present

Officers of the Ukrainian defence army are there to implement the official policies. As of now, the official policy is to follow the rules of war and the Geneva Convention as far as I know. There may be groups in Ukraine that may not have such a degree of discipline, but that is a completely different matter from having an official policy of classing PoWs as "terrorists" and kill them.

All in all, this simply makes life much harder for both RF and Ukrainian soldiers.

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Ukraine may actually be following it at government level - you can follow the convention even if you do not recognise it.

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

I heard its even worse if officer is present

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Quote from: tvbcof on June 09, 2022, 11:21:13 AM

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

You've got it all mixed up again. The trial of the mercenaries took place in the DPR, from the point of view of Russia it is an independent state, from the point of view of Ukraine it is the Donetsk region within Ukraine. Putin is a powerful man, but he has no power over the Supreme Court of a sovereign state (he doesn't even have power over Russia's Supreme Court).

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Quote from: be.open on June 09, 2022, 10:21:07 AM

The Supreme Court of the DPR sentenced to death British citizens Sean Pinner and Aiden Aslin, as well as Moroccan Saadoun Brahim, who are accused of participating in hostilities as part of the Ukrainian armed formations as mercenaries.

...

Seriously for a minute, I'm curious if there are strong indications that the trial was either fair or unfair on the part of the DPR. A non-partisan analysis of what is know of the proceedings would be of interest if anyone (serious) runs across such a thing.

...

Not fair or unfair trial? You mean, apart from taking place in a state that is not recognised by UN and only exists (recognised) for a handful of countries of which most are under Adolf Putin's rule. Even the tribunal has no legitimate law or country to start with. I could as well meet with a few friends and judge someone using Nepali law.

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Quote from: Branko on June 10, 2022, 07:19:46 AM

Quote from: be.open on June 10, 2022, 06:19:11 AM

As for the International Criminal Court, that's bullshit. Russia does not recognize this organization, as well as, for example, the United States.

Most big countries, that can afford to ignore it, do so. So, no trials for Americans, Chinamen, Russians or Indians...and some more

And for smaller fish without the big-player clout, one can get the ICC off one's ass by putting some effort into getting the globalist sponsored de-pop shot into the citizenry's arms so it seems.

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Quote from: be.open on June 10, 2022, 06:19:11 AM

This is pretty much what I expected to read from you. Adolf Putin's government killing POW = justice. If Ukraine defence army ever thinks of doing the same = Terrorism / crimes. This type of bullshit fits well on the RF controlled media, but people here can tell a troll.

There is some difference between the torture and murder of Russian prisoners without trial and investigation, and between the trial of foreign mercenaries. If you don't see it or refuse to see it, that says a lot about you.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-22/explainer-how-could-ru

...
At the end of March, an international scandal erupted when many mainstream media published shocking videos of the torture and execution of Russian prisoners of war. A little later, in early April, Kyiv refused to comply with the Geneva Convention in relation to Russian prisoners of war. You have a very short and selective memory if you don't remember it.

The Geneva convention you say... so Ukraine has to comply with it but...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-convention-idUSKBN1WW2IN

Quote

Russia's Putin revokes Geneva convention protocol on war crimes victims

Quote

The International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor, Karim Khan, said this month he had opened an investigation into possible war crimes in Ukraine. Neither Russia nor Ukraine is a member of the ICC and Moscow does not recognize the tribunal.

This is very simple: you can expect the same chivalry you offer.

I did not argue that Ukraine should comply with the Geneva Convention in relation to the prisoners. LTU_btc claimed that Ukraine follows the Geneva Convention, but this is not true - that's what I said. Don't overdo it, it's not pretty.

...

Ukraine may actually be following it at government level - you can follow the convention even if you do not recognise it.

The matter is still the same, the RF is not only showing disrespect for PoWs, they are even making a point of killing them in public. What can you expect if you are an RF captured soldier and there are no officers present?

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Quote from: be.open on June 10, 2022, 06:19:11 AM

As for the International Criminal Court, that's bullshit. Russia does not recognize this organization, as well as, for example, the United States.

Most big countries, that can afford to ignore it, do so. So, no trials for Americans, Chinamen, Russians or Indians...and some more

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This is pretty much what I expected to read from you. Adolf Putin's government killing POW = justice. If Ukraine defence army ever thinks of doing the same = Terrorism / crimes. This type of bullshit fits well on the RF controlled media, but people here can tell a troll.

There is some difference between the torture and murder of Russian prisoners without trial and investigation, and between the trial of foreign mercenaries. If you don't see it or refuse to see it, that says a lot about you.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-03-22/explainer-how-could-ru

...
At the end of March, an international scandal erupted when many mainstream media published shocking videos of the torture and execution of Russian prisoners of war. A little later, in early April, Kyiv refused to comply with the Geneva Convention in relation to Russian prisoners of war. You have a very short and selective memory if you don't remember it.

The Geneva convention you say... so Ukraine has to comply with it but...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-warcrimes-convention-idUSKBN1WW2IN

Quote

Russia's Putin revokes Geneva convention protocol on war crimes victims

Quote

The International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor, Karim Khan, said this month he had opened an investigation into possible war crimes in Ukraine. Neither Russia nor Ukraine is a member of the ICC and Moscow does not recognize the tribunal.

This is very simple: you can expect the same chivalry you offer.

I did not argue that Ukraine should comply with the Geneva Convention in relation to the prisoners. LTU_btc claimed that Ukraine follows the Geneva Convention, but this is not true - that's what I said. Don't overdo it, it's not pretty.

As for the International Criminal Court, that's bullshit. Russia does not recognize this organization, as well as, for example, the United States.

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Quote from: be.open on June 09, 2022, 11:53:55 PM

Quote from: paxmao on June 09, 2022, 05:38:20 PM

Do not complaint after for the payback. Killing a POW by deciding that he is a "terrorist" calls for equal terms for the captured RF orcs. Not that you care about them, I know, I am just saying this for those who may be considering joining the RF army.

Exactly, this is payback - for the murders and torture of Russian prisoners of war who were captured by Ukrainians.
...

This is pretty much what I expected to read from you. Adolf Putin's government killing POW = justice. If Ukraine defence army ever thinks of doing the same = Terrorism / crimes. This type of bullshit fits well on the RF controlled media, but people here can tell a troll.

The facts do not care about your view anyway. Soldiers joining the RF invasion forces are now a bit more exposed to retaliation - even if not government backed or even in isolated incidents. Them, their friends and relatives have to understand that Adolf Putin has put them at risk just to have his day of propaganda on RF controlled media. The whole war is anyway about it.