Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 337. (Read 79316 times)

Here i have a good text in russian, about this propaganda move (not mine): "Пoчитaл вoт, чтo, oкaзывaeтcя, в Укpaинe звepcтвa пo oтнoшeнию к poccийcким coлдaтaм пpoявляют, и чтo этo oчeнь лицeмepнo, чтo вecь миp зaмeчaeт peзню в Бyчe, нo нe peaгиpyeт нa жecтoкoe oбpaщeниe c pyccкими coлдaтaми.

Hy чтo тyт cкaзaть? Жecтoкocть к пoвepжeннoмy вpaгy - плoxo. Пытки - плoxo. Кaзни - плoxo. Ho paвнять poccийcкиx и yкpaинcкиx coлдaт здecь - лицeмepиe. Oни нe paвны изнaчaльнo. Cтoит нaпoмнить тoлькo лишь, чтo вoйнa идёт нa тeppитopии Укpaины. Этo poccийcкиe coлдaты тyдa пpишли. Poccийcкиe paкeты paзбoмбили yкpaинcкиe гopoдa. Poccийcкиe coлдaты нacилyют, yбивaют и мapoдepcтвyют миpныx житeлeй. И тpeбoвaть джeнтльмeнcкoгo oтнoшeния к ceбe пocлe этoгo... нy, этo нeaдeквaтнo. Этo кaк нaпacть нa чeлoвeкa, зapeзaть eгo нoжoм, изнacилoвaть eгo жeнy, eгo дeтeй, a пoтoм плaкaть, чтo пpишёл eгo coceд и тeбe пизды дaл. Tипa "a мeня тo зa чтo?".

Poccийcкaя apмия и poccийcкaя пpoпaгaндa здecь вocпpoизвoдят этy пcиxoлoгию, cтoль pacпpocтpaнeннyю в Poccии, кoгдa здopoвыe взpocлыe мyжики включaют бycидo, бычaт, лeзyт дpaтьcя, и caми жe вызывaют мycopoв и плaчyтcя им. Bcю жизнь тaкиx нeнaвидeл. Boт этo, кaжeтcя, ceгoдня coциaльный xapaктep нaшeгo oбщecтвa, вocпитaнный oбъeктивными ycлoвиями, пpи кoтopыx живyт poccиянe. Taкoй cплaв пaцaнcкo-тюpeмныx пoнятий c мycopcким гocyдapcтвoм. Tип мнe вcё мoжнo, бyдy дeлaть чтo зaxoчy и включy мaчo, любыe пpoблeмы peшy кyлaкaми, a ecли мнe ктo oтвeтит, тo мycopнycь. Boт этo вoт глyбиннaя мopaль pyccкoгo миpa ceгoдня, и имeннo этy лoгикy и дeмoнcтpиpyют пpoпaгaндиcты и cepдoбoльныe poccиянe, вoзмyщaющиecя жecтoким oбpaщeниeм c poccийcкими coлдaтaми, нo игнopиpyющиe peзню миpныx yкpaинцeв, и гoгoчyщиe нaд жecтoким oбpaщeниeм c yкpaинcкими coлдaтaми. Paзвe тe жe caмыe пpoпaгaндиcтcкиe кaнaлы нe дeмoнcтpиpyют peгyляpнo кaдpы c yнижeнными и дpoжaщими yкpaинцaми нa кoлeняx, чтo иcпyгaннo кpичaт пo тpeбoвaнию гoгoчyщиx чeчeнцeв "Axмaт - cилa"? Taкoe, кoнeчнo, дeлaeтcя дoбpoвoльнo, a нe пoд пыткaми и cтpaxoм cмepти? Oдни и тe жe кaнaлы дeмoнcтpиpyют эти видeo, и вoзмyщaютcя жecтoкocтью пo oтнoшeнию к poccийcким плeнным.

Этy жe лoгикy oни дeмoнcтpиpoвaли пpи тpaгeдияx в дoмax пpoфcoюзoв. Кoгдa в Киeвe cилoвики coжгли зaживo пpoтecтyющиx в мecтнoм дoмe пpoфcoюзoв, эти люди paдocтнo oтпycкaли шyтoчки пpo "caлo пoдгopeлo" и "тaк им и нaдo". A кoгдa в Oдecce в oтвeт нa cтpeльбy и кoктeйли мoлoтoвa c aнтимaйдaннoй cтopoны мaйдaннaя cтopoнa coжглa aгpeccopoв, тo здecь "yжac, нeлюди, кaк тaк мoжнo?". Ta жe caмaя лoгикa - мнe мoжнo, a дpyгим нeльзя. Я бyдy нacaждaть cвoё cилoй, a ecли мнe дaдyт cдaчи - зaплaчy и мycopнycь.

У нopмaльныx людeй жe aгpeccop и зaщищaющийcя никoгдa нe бyдyт paвными. Зaщищaющийcя впpaвe пpимeнить тe мeтoды oбopoны, кoтopыe oн cчитaeт нaибoлee эффeктивными. Этo нe oн выбpaл этoт кoнфликт, кoнфликт нaчaлcя пo винe aгpeccopa. И ecли aгpeccop дyмaeт, чтo нaпaдaя нa чeлoвeкa, oн бyдeт ycтaнaвливaть paмки дoпycтимoгo нacилия, чтo тoлькo oн бyдeт пpимeнять нacилиe - нy, чтo жe, peaльнocть eгo жecтoкo oблoмaeт, кoнeчнo. Зaщищaющийcя впpaвe дeлaть вcё для cвoeй зaщиты.

Poccийcкиx coлдaт жaлкo, кoнeчнo. Tex из ниx, ктo нe coвepшaл жecтoкocтeй пo oтнoшeнию к миpнoмy нaceлeнию. Tex из ниx, ктo нe бoeц Pocгвapдии и нe мycop. Ho пpeтeнзии здecь нyжнo пpeдъявлять зa ниx вoвce нe yкpaинцaм, нa чью зeмлю oни пpишли и кoтopыe oбopoняютcя, и кoтopыe тoчнo тaкжe xoтят жить, кaк и эти poccийcкиe coлдaты. Укpaинцaм oни caми выбopa нe ocтaвили. Пpeтeнзии здecь нyжнo пpeдъявлять тoмy, ктo пocлaл coлдaт нa вoйнy, и тeм, ктo этy вoйнy пoддepживaeт и пpoпaгaндиpyeт - Пyтинy, Coлoвьeвым-Киceлeвым, вceвoзмoжным импepцaм, нaциoнaлиcтaм, нaцбoлaм и тд. Boт oни тo yбивaют poccийcкиx coлдaт, a нe oбopoняющиecя yкpaинцы"

I picked most important takes with bold.

And yeah, I'm back (at least for some time)

Yes, of course, it's interesting that you mentioned it. I can tell you two things about this:
1. The Budapest memorandum "is not worth the paper on which it was signed" and, according to the United States, is not legally binding, although Russia strictly followed it and even the fate of Crimea was decided not by Russia, but by the citizens of Crimea themselves in a referendum, within the framework of the nation's right to self-determination, which is the cornerstone of international law and is explicitly included in the UN Charter.
2. The trigger for the start of the operation in Ukraine on February 24, 2022 was Zelensky’s public statement that Ukraine could call into question the obligations under the Budapest Memorandum.

So what about the Minsk agreements?

Have you read the text of the Budapest Agreements?

Unfortunately, I know much more about the events in Ukraine than I would like.

But it doesn't seem like it's a case where you can say "enough of this shit, let's get on with the next story".
Yes, Putin is right. No matter how hard they try to portray Russian soldiers as orcs who steal toilet bowls from Ukrainians because they were first seen and other ridiculous epics of the Fourth Reich. In this story the Russians are on the bright side of the Force, as always.
Are you flattering me again or is this sarcasm? Just in case, thanks.
Do not dramatize, no one in their right mind will climb to clear seven floors underground of a bunker near Azovstal. I think it will either be flooded with water or the Nazis of Azov will be smoked out with chemicals not from the list of banned chemical weapons. Technically, even the tear gas used by the police to disperse demonstrators in democratic countries can also be called a chemical attack. Military experts from the Russian troops of radiochemical protection will find a legal way to solve this problem. The Marines of the Armed Forces of Ukraine who wanted to surrender have already surrendered, the rest have made their choice.
Here you get on a very slippery slope and I would like to warn you against this. The last war that is really a "war" on this planet was declared by the USSR to Japan in 1945 and it is still strictly speaking not over, because there is no peace treaty. All other armed conflicts after that do not have the formal status of war, including the US and Korea, the US and Vietnam, the US and Iraq, the US and Afghanistan, etc.

This S-300 complex was destroyed yesterday by a high-precision weapon strike. A refutation was received from Slovakia with reference to the statement of the Ukrainian side, but in the conditions of a full-scale information war against Russia around the world, the unfounded statements of the Ukrainian side are worth about zero. Yes, Ukraine still has remnants of air defense, and it even seems that they really managed to knock out a couple of low-flying K-52 Black Sharks with Stingers, but in general, the Russian aerospace forces feel quite comfortable in the air over Ukraine and every day the pilots perform their combat tasks. The big surprise of the Russians in this operation, which made a sensation on military resources, is the X-31PM anti-radar missile with a range of 300 km. If an aircraft with such a missile detects enemy radar radiation, the enemy no longer has a radar. The remnants of the air defense of Ukraine are forced to work almost blindly, turn on the radar for a short time, change positions, and use other tricks. But in the end there is no continuous zone of observation.

It is not outdated, it's just that NATO soldiers do not know how to fight. Let's be honest, NATO instructors do an excellent job of training sabotage teams. And when NATO instructors begin to train soldiers from third world countries, instead of sabotage groups, for some reason, gangs of terrorists usually turn out.

In urban battles there are always civilian casualties, unfortunately this is inevitable. Russian soldiers do their best to minimize them, even if it increases the risks for themselves. I'm talking about the fact that the Russians never deliberately kill civilians, realizing that in front of them is a man without a weapon. I am sorry if for some this statement seems far from reality, amazing news or some kind of revelation. There is not a single country in modern history where Russia took part in armed conflicts, and where Russian soldiers would be seen in some atrocities or inappropriate behavior towards civilians. Even in Afghanistan, local residents still warmly and respectfully treat Russian soldiers, although there are areas where a civilian is a civilian during the day, and in the evening he is a Taliban fighter.
An international investigation is already underway in Bucha, but everything is clear as day there. The national police entered the city and organized a purge of "collaborators", killing everyone who did not have a blue bandage on his arm, and especially those with a white one. Yes, even shooting a video about it, which they then tried in vain to remove from the network.

It is interesting that the provocation in Kramatorsk was quickly hushed up after the serial number of the Ukrainian missile surfaced. Shame on the killers of civilians, these Nazi degenerates and drug addicts will all be demilitarized and denazified soon. It is a surreal nonsense and at the same time a reality when the civilians of Mariupol say: I heard "Allah Akbar!"* and crossed herself - Thank God, the Russians have come.

*Chechens from the Kadyrov regiment, who are actively involved in the cleansing of Mariupol, are Muslims.

If you refuse to expand your view geographically, can you expand your view in time? I don't understand why you consider the current events in Ukraine taken out of context? Have you read the text of the Minsk agreements?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/04/11/world/europe/bucha-terror.html

Not really, Ukraine is signatory to such treaties. Even worse, those are technically Ukrainian citizens, and recently DNR/LNR have been "drafting" every male resident going as far as literally chasing them and beating them on the street: https://vimeo.com/698397206

So this basically means that Ukrainian forces have to fight against their own forcibly drafted citizens, who didn't want to be in this war to begin with. They were like 10 years old in 2014 when some dude in Kremlin decided their fate. Such a horrible mess.

I guess that means that troops in those territories cannot claim that any treaty has then been broken if their soldiers are treated inhumanly? Seems to cut both ways?


Most likely. There may be a case that "concern" translates into further and quicker aid.

There are unconfirmed reports that some "substance" was released from a drone. Could be false (calling Basurin's bluff), not sure.

Funny (not really) thing about Basurin and other DNR/LNR nutjobs - Russia can claim that these "independent" states haven't signed any international agreements regarding chemical weapons. And when I say "can", I mean Kremlin trolls are already doing it in comments on Russian sites, coming soon to Reddit/Youtube/etc.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis#Chemical_attack

Not much cover-up needed. They don't care about killing their own civilians, certainly won't care about "nazis". The West will be "very concerned".

It would make tactical sense (that is, if Putin's psychos decide so) since that would allow capturing the installations with minimal damage. I am not sure what kind of response would come to the use of chemical weapons or how would Putin try to cover up the mess after.


No questions, no more than 3 sentences and youtube video watching and link clicking mandatory... You certainly like setting rules for others don't you?


This got me thinking for a while. Putin has not declared war and is, as you say, insisting that this is not war. I guess that by some dark twisted karma boomerang Russian soldiers cannot be PoW but, as you say, terrorists comiting acts of terror in Ukrainian territory.

In any case, war is a dirty business. I have not seen one in which armies acted with chivalry and respect - hate is too strong. Still, it is different if a bunch of irregulars decide to behave like animals from a institutional chain-of-command order to do so.

Against my usual ways, I watched the video. Basic threatening and fear tactic, level 2 of 10. If you are one of Putin's minions you probably could not care less. It mostly helps Putin's side IMHO.

Russians have intentions to use chemical weapon in Mariupol. One of officials of DPR even said it on Russian TV without hiding it:
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/dpr-militia-hints-at-possible-use-of-chemical-weapons-in-mariupols-azovstal-steel-plant-articleshow.html
If it will really happen (I hope that no), how West would react to it? Last month Biden said that US and NATO would respond to it.

That's serious statement, but far from reality. If Russian soldiers aren't shooting at civilians, then who killed all these civilians in Ukraine. And please don't say again about fakes from Ukraine. How you can deny these proofs of Russians shooting civilians that were filmed on video. For example women on bike from Bucha. And nothing surprising that Russians don't believe in cheap Ukrainian propaganda. They prefer to believe in expensive Russian propaganda.
About below part of your post. Yeah, big part of Ukraine is Russian speaking, but it doesn't makes them pro-Russian. After war started, there isn't much love to Russia left.

Good video  with strong message. It's nothing surprising that Ukrainians don't show much love to Russians now.  But this video isn't something special or unique after all things I saw on social media after war started.

Instead writing 20000+ letters article, I pointed you at some that other people wrote, and that I mostly agree with.
You ignored them all and continue with your arglebargle and propaganda
Good luck

I am afraid you need to do better yourself.  You see, normally I would support a "broader view of events", but the fact that Putin attacked militarily Ukraine is one of those things that do not require much of an analysis.

Now, for now you have compared the situation with Cuba, Irak, Syria,... is that what you call "broader view"?   (Oh sorry, you do not like questions).

I you want a broader view, have it:

Putin considers Ukraine his backyard. It is the buffer that separates Russia from what he considers an "enemy" and a territory that is important for several economic and political reasons. IMHO Western Europe is not an "enemy" but it is certainly a "rival". Notice that the difference here is the use of force or the use of diplomacy and influence. And yes, EU is interested in being a partner of Ukraine and establish mutually beneficial trade relationships. Yes, EU and US are interested in Ukraine becoming an ally (who wouldn't), IMHO not a member of NATO but something alike.

Putin has failed to gain the support of the Ukrainians and, despite trying to have a government of his liking, he has failed to achieve it. He also has failed to have a wide support from Ukrainians for some short of partnership or at least a declaration of neutrality.

The war is a result of his inability to reach his desired goals by pacific means, as simple as that. He failed to seduce the girl and decided that the best alternative is to rape her. Though luck my friend, the girl has sharp nails and a knife hidden in her purse.

And now, if you want to speak about the ethics of this compared to US actions in Irak, or French actions in Mali or current Russian actions in Mali and several other places in Africa (see Wagner Group) where no journalist would ever set foot you will reach the conclusion that the world is full of crap. Yet still, that does not make this war good nor justifies.

I'm not talking about some nebulous "events", I'm talking about the invasion that this thread is about and the war crimes that your "question" was about.

Same goes for me...but he used that kind of loaded questions like 10 times on me...just wanted him to taste his own medicine
Also, you have to have much broader knowledge about events, as "Russia attacked Ukraine" is pretty simplified version for general,
mostly dumb and uninterested public
I bet you can do better, but I don't know if you want to

I know it's not addressed to me but it's an absurdly propagandist question to ask.

For example, I don't support POW torture but I support Ukrainians defending their country by other means, such as killing non-POW enemy troops using conventional warfare; I don't support Russian forces killing civilians but I would support Russians if they were to defend their country from e.g. China or some other aggressor.

But the fact right now is that Russian military invaded Ukraine so there is no "both sides equally bad" bullshit here. Invaders must go home or die.

If 10 years later Ukraine proclaims that Russians are nazis and invades Voronezh we can reapportion the blame.

Thus Putin is right? He is all right invading because some crazy bastard is killing PoWs? I am kind of believing that they are killing PoWs and make it public because, unfortunately, makes perfect sense (in a twisted and pathological manner) to deter the young soldiers giving their lives for no reason in the future.

This leads to the same pattern of you posting story: Putin is right, you see, "Ukrainians are killing PoWs, so Putin is all right bombarding at will".


You are just jealous of gays because they really know how to throw a party with style and you don't.

Amazing how pro-nazi and pro-gay and God can be mixed in the same paragraph, you have outdone yourself.

Russian POW gets a knife jammed into his eye socket until he dies

If you did not want me to talk about the phone call, why did you make it the largest part of your post?
The gigantic transcript of the conversation was impossible to ignore, so I've decided to talk about it.

Those guys who made the call did not murder the person they were talking about, even though you tried to show their conversation like it was an example of a war crime.

Also, some of your other links are pretty weak as evidence of war crimes too, for instance that guy dragged towards his dead companions. There's no evidence that he was killed, on the contrary, he was listed on the telegram channel Ищи cвoиx (https://t.me/rf200_nooow) as a captured POW. Don't expect Ukrainians to give him a shot of vodka and shake his hand. You don't know how many people he managed to kill before he was taken down.

Where did I do such a thing? I am simply establishing that your posting story is justifying any act of Putin's army and all his decissions.

You see, even the way you ask... that is a loaded question... how can you support people who does XYZ? Wrong question. The right thing to ask is do you support the people who did that? The answer is of course not.

With your story of posting, it is funny who it is you asking this.