Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 337. (Read 73543 times)

Not giving asurance to Russia that Ukraine won't join NATO is just polite way to say no without closing doors completely. But now even Zelensky aren't making false illusions that Ukraine will be accepted into NATO one day. Same stuff applies to Gerorgia too probably.
NATO didn't got involved into this war directly. Training troops isn't something significant. NATO did same thing in Afghanistan and some other countries. And all these trainers already left country since start of war. Sending weapons is another question, but it's not direct involvement. Not just NATO are doing it, but also neutral countries like Finland.


Actually, nobody knows real number of victims and I doubt that numbers can be called low. Just in Bucha there was hundreds of dead civilians. We can only imagine how many people were killed in Mariupol.
And we aren't talking about accidentally killed civilians. From what we can see that Russians are killing civilians intentionally.

I know, you guys are great at acknowledging facts post festum, but you don't return stolen goods
or money or pay reparations

United Kingdom Parliament Investigation
An in depth investigation into the Libyan intervention and its aftermath was conducted by the U.K. Parliament's House of Commons' cross-party Foreign Affairs Committee, the final conclusions of which were released on 14 September 2016 in a report titled Libya: Examination of intervention and collapse and the UK's future policy options.] The report was strongly critical of the British government's role in the intervention. The report concluded that the government "failed to identify that the threat to civilians was overstated and that the rebels included a significant Islamist element." In particular, the committee concluded that Gaddafi was not planning to massacre civilians, and that reports to the contrary were propagated by rebels and Western governments. Western leaders trumpeted the threat of the massacre of civilians without factual basis, according to the parliamentary report, for example, it had been reported to Western leaders that on 17 March 2011 Gaddafi had given Benghazi rebels the offer of peaceful surrender and also that when Gaddafi had earlier retaken other rebel cities there were no massacres of non-combatants.

"oooops, sorry, we bombed you back to stone age, that sucks. We wont return those billions we owe you for oil or those frozen assets, though"

Already answered (yes I do answer, you should try, I may give your claims some sense).


I am not happy with anyone committing crimes. You cannot say the same, can you? Are you ok with Putin killing civilians yes or no? Or maybe... your are just trying to rationalise supporting an assassin?

It cannot be more clear, I have a rationale for my stance on the conflict and is not based on mere coercion or pure force, but on the type of regimes that I would rather live in. If a despot attacks a country that wishes to rule his own destinies, I know where I am.

I do get that your view of the world is different. You are all right with the Tzar invading Ukraine, I am not and, as you can see Ukrainians are not either and the more Putin's army vandalises their country the more they will be against. You cannot grasp this concept because your conception of life is about force and fear.

I do not think that any foreign intervention has made any serious effort to implement democracy in any country in particular because one of the requisites of democracy is education and knowledge of history and that is not something you can force. Again, you cannot understand any of these concepts, from your perspective, the world is no more than a jungle and people are beasts.

I urge you to open a thread on Madeleine, Libia, Syria... You will find plenty of people in the forum to agree with.

Russians have a solution to the Ukrainian question. The 'solution' was openly posted on the RIA website.

https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html

https://archive.ph/kRSt3#selection-4189.0-4208.0

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/kremlin-editorial-ukraine-identity-1.6407921

Tash got a history of not checking his hyperlinked "facts", though.

He vanished just like Tiffany Dover, disappeared from face of the earth.

I love your style, throwing out some "questions" instead of making a direct claim, which you would have to substantiate.

Just like you were asking "questions" as to why Ukrainians are not letting people evacuate even though it was obvious that Russian forces are controlling the checkpoints and throttling the evacuation and then there's this: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-04-04/red-cross-says-its-team-travelling-to-mariupol-was-stopped-now-being-held

As for people from Mariupol "going" to Russia... when you have no food for a month and that's your only option... sure, you'll go to the totalitarian shithole and give up your phone and documents "voluntarily".

Todays democracy = "Hypocrisy "

Coworker sister currently live and work in China and has interesting comparison between Croatian and Chinese
point of view (translated by Google):

"I don't think the main problem is that Chinese propaganda quotes Russian. Our people do the same. The problem is that in addition to transmitting news, the Chinese media do not write the correct reaction of readers to what is read, such as e.g. ours who clearly tell us what is true and what is a lie.
So, one of the differences between our democracy and the Chinese communist autocracy is that the autocratic media broadcasts the news, and the democratic media, in addition to transmitting the news, suggest which news should be accepted as true and which should not. Shouldn't it be the other way around?"

Since the recent events happened in Bucha we have heard a lot more about war crimes but only from our side but russian speakers seem to be speaking about war crimes being commited by the Ukranian side also.According to some,many Russian prisoners of war have been killed while held prisoner or tortured and mutilated by Ukranian forces.Anyone have any details about this because all our media channels with Russian content have been cut off or censored ...in our democracy.

I guess its a human nature...when you see for example Madeleine Albright who admitted killing 500 000
Iraq children complaining about Putin, are we supposed to cheer for her or what?
Would you take seriously Charles Manson accusing someone for verbally abusing wife?

Why are you always looking to change the subject? Can't justify Putin's actions with some solid arguments so your only line of defense is attacking other countries.
Does the fact that Serbs And Chechens were executing prisoners by cutting their throats make Russians more humane, because they at least shoot them in the head and then give them a proper burial in a mass grave, instead of leaving them on the streets? Oh wait, scratch that, instead of burning them and using their fat to make soap, like Germans in Poland.

This thread is not about the USA, or Serbs, or Iraq, or Germany, but about Russia and Ukraine.

He is probably trying to rationalize UK involvement in bringing democracy to Libya
and Iraq...western media is using that excuse since WW2 when they come after
other countries natural resources

Wrong, theres no such info on wikipedia, you can check yourself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Cloutier

Now, since there is information war going, too, everything is possible, so we can only wait

Has a girl (or boy) ever told you "no, but we can be friends"? Well, in diplomatic terms this means "certainly not yet" or even "possibly not ever" but we can be friends.


Any attack on civils or wanton destruction is criminal, that is out of the question.

I meant what I said: A despotic regime with nuclear weapons attacking an (imperfect, yet incipient) democracy is a problem for me personally and for most of the West. As imperfect as democracies are (and the US is getting worse IMHO) are still a step ahead of Tzars and Emperors on freedom. When Putin attacks Ukraine, I feel attacked. This is unrelated to whether they use or not terror tactics or their criminal actions.

That is what Putin just could not understand, as you seem not to understand either, and one of the causes for the significant setbacks his army is having: People will put a fight for their right to govern themselves, even if they make a mess it will be their mess. Particularly, after decades of communism and enjoying a glimpse of freedom, is unlikely they will accept being de-facto governed by a foreign power that is particularly violent.

As I have said in many posts, the Ukrainians are choosing - and putting their Javelins where their mouths are.

I do not go into who is worst or who does the civil killing best, that is not "logic". As said in several posts, several US governments and presidents have committed crimes against peace, crimes against humanity and war crimes. The US has setup a world stage in which their wealthy elites choose who dies and who lives, even inside the US. How could other than them or a brainwashed population be happy about it? But, if you want to talk about that wathabout you can open an specific thread, you will have many contributors.


I see. Look, you have to put "tactical" before saying that type of stuff but it sound better. For example "Putin's army made a tactical retreat from Kyiv". See... that does not sound like a defeat now.

Ukraine will be rebuilt. Who will rebuild Putin's Russia prestige and stance in the world?

As per Wikipedia Major General Roger L. Cloutier died in Mariupol and was not captured.
https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/numerous-reports-u-s-army-general-captured-in-mariupol-with-azov-nazis

You are feeding a dangerous and destructive illusion. Ukraine did not have and does not have a chance to defeat Russia. The only question is the number of victims and the scale of destruction. According to NATO estimates, 400 thousand soldiers are needed to take control over Ukraine only east of the Dnieper, Russia, together with the people's militia of Donbass, used almost half as many. Almost 600,000 people were mobilized and armed from the Ukrainian side along with the defense units. Numerical superiority should not be misleading when the military infrastructure is badly destroyed, airfields, weapons depots, fuel depots, military equipment - everywhere there are heavy losses from missile strikes by Caliber and other high-precision weapons. The army of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is now actually deprived of the ability to maneuver in a coordinated manner, it is divided into separate formations under the control of field commanders, and all supply logistics east of the Dnieper is seriously disrupted. This anarchist resistance of Ukraine on naked patriotism, I think, will quickly dry up due to its complete hopelessness and senselessness.

Ok so Russia doing the same shit US and NATO did. Big powers do what big powers do, wage wars for sphere of influence. All are shit. I'm assuming you're a logical person, and addressing the issue starting with the biggest offenders? And being objective you covered demolition of Raqqa the city about the size of Mariupol, how many children, women, elderly died? How many maternity wards, hospitals, kindergartens were bombed there, what percentage of infrastructure was left standing? How does it compare to Mariupol, in term of civilian casualties?


Oh boy, really hoping you didn't mean that. So gov just needs to convince average TV watching population that the regime is despotic, and that somehow makes killing their children better? Dehumanizing opponent is part of every warfare, and we're watching unprecedented levels of this here, i expect lots of books written about psy ops, and media coverage of this war after this is all over. Do you not see the irony in your own words, by your logic Russians are justified because they're fighting Nazis, a despotic regime. Is DPRK, Democratic Republic of the Congo are democracies (after all, it's in their name), Uzbekistan, Hungry a democracy, where is a cutoff? Care to rate democracy in Ukraine? If you can judge school bombings by their level of "democracisness" would you be able to rate a bunch of them if i provide examples?


Care to look up how many mixed Ukrainian/Russian families lived in Ukraine? How many held dual citizenship (even though Ukraine doesn't seem to allow it), how many of those predominately Russian speaking cities in east Ukraine on the boarder with Russia had family/relatives in Russia that can shelter them? Let me know what you find



Well one of the main units assaulting Mariupol is from Donbass, lots of Units (navy) is from Crimea, which Ukraine and majority of the world still considers to be part of Ukraine, so how could it be genocide??? Surely you're not just parroting talking points by mass media, and can explain which category of people is being targeted for you to think it's a genocide?


There's always a choice. Unlike Bandera, I think my grandparents would have higher chances staying in a war zone than trying to go to Nazi Germany. It's an oxymoron to claim genocide when hundreds of thousands of people go to the country supposedly committing said genocide.

If Ukraine is an independent country, then why Joe Biden, by using financial intimidation, dictated to Ukraine which Prosecutor General should be there?


You can read the speech of the Secretary General of NATO dated January 10, 2022, about Ukraine was being prepared for join to the alliance.

When NATO refused Russia's demand to provide guarantees that Ukraine would never join the alliance, Russian Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Aleksandr Grushko warned:

Though Ukraine is not an official member of alliance, but according to the NATO Secretary General, their block have trained tens of thousands of Ukrainian troops who are now at war with Russia, NATO supplies Ukraine with various types of weapons. I suppose no one will dispute the fact that the alliance forces are taking part in this military conflict on the side of Ukraine. Although the alliance doesn't want to enter into a direct confrontation with Russia, what is happening now is more like NATO fights against Russia to the last Ukrainian.


Even taking into account military actions, I believe that in the civilized world it is unacceptable to talk about "low deaths" among civilians. Need to constantly keep in mind that these are not just numbers but human pain, injuries and broken destinies.

USA spent nothing,,,took their money and gave it to their own companies to "rebuild" what they destroyed, at exorbitant prices