Topic: Russian Invasion of Ukraine[In Progress] - page 71. (Read 60499 times)

So the only citation of "enormous doubts" you provided from back in March was refuted by new information released since then. You provide zero new sources, just childish attempts to seed more doubt and uncertainty. I'm just a messenger posting news from the western media, yet instead of attempting to address why would all major newspapers suddenly publish a "nebulous story and perfectly suited for Putler's approach to sow discord among Ukraine's allies" you just continue with your silly personal attacks on me for posting the news? So, on one hand we have SPIEGEL claiming that "false flag" considered extremely unlikely, and Moscow had no real motive for the crime, and on another we have 1miau ignoring everything and pushing his false flag conspiracy theory with the super reliable source of Think we can all decide who we trust more on this one.

Germany just decided due to the war to abandon Russian gas.
Before the war, Germany was like "Well, Putin is a bit strange and not democratic at all but maybe Putin will improve and cheap gas is nice". Gas from Russia wasn't popular but it was cheap. And that's why NordStream 2 was built.
The opinion about Russian gas changed massively, when Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin showed for everyone that he can't be trusted. His obvious lies ahead and during his "special operation", his war crimes and Putin even threatened to halt gas exports if Germany doesn't pay in Rubles, a demand Putin set up himself in 2022. By then, Germany's only problem was to get enough gas for the next winter (Putin's plan to "freeze Germany / Europe", like mentioned by suchmoon here (where Putin failed miserably as well  ))
Regarding his "gas to Germany" strategy, Putin miscalculated big time, that much more German politicians would be currupt or "Putinfriends" like our ex chancellor Gerhard Schröder. Putin calculated that his corrupt politicians won't decide to stop gas imports and don't deliever weapons to Ukraine. But turned out for Putin, that his bought politicians were not enough.
Germany decided to ditch Russian gas and even to deliever weapons to Ukraine.  

Some politicians would, for sure. But Putin's activity of buying currupt politicians has shifted massively to far-right AfD (and also still "Die Linke" (far left)). Moving forward, purchasing Russian gas again, will be extremely unpopular in Germany, especially because one of the key mistakes of German politics was to rely too much on Russian gas. Getting (almost) independent from other countries (no single point of failure) is a very popular political position in Germany now.
And a party advocating for the opposite would face enourmous criticism to repeat the same mistakes from pre-2022 again.
Putin has lost most of his support among German politicians due to his war against Ukraine. Many pro-russian networks of curruption were exposed and dismantled.

Yes, Germany's "problem" was mainly rising gas prices due to such a big percentage of gas coming from Russia. This is now solved since Putin hasn't any leverage here anymore.

After all, the only thing Putin's war achieved in that regard so far is a big miscalculation, where he has lost most European countries as a gas importer.  

A few interesting points here:

- Germany decided not to use Russian gas before the war? I do not think so, in fact they have lobbied in the EU to decide that gas "is green".
- Germany would be fine with returning to use RF gas. I know, it seems impossible today, but I give 1 year after a permanent cease fire to go back to cheap energy.
- Germany does not depend on the Russian gas, in the same sense that I do not depend on the cheapest restaurant around to eat. It is just the cheapest, as long as they do not go on an invading spree.

And some recent news, difficult to ignore even for the Muscovites who live immersed in the official juice of comfort, unconfirmed but seems that there have been explosions in at least one airport in Moscow.

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2023/08/10/Russia-s-emergency-service-reports-fire-near-airport-RIA

You have not provided a single citation, where officials say that they have proof, that Ukraine is behind it. Because there is no proof that Ukraine is behind it. All, you have presented are guesses, "could be", "might be", "looks like" or similar.  
You are just hiding behind your weak "Ukrainian boat" story...
Keep insisting on it to defend your beloved war criminal in the Kremlin.

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That's once again a lie from you because I've never said this. Stop making up things but lying seems to be your hobby...  

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Just because a "light explosive" is suspected to be used, it doesn't mean, it has been used.
In case of a Russian false flag operation, it would have been a very easy thing from Russia to leave these traces intentionally on that rented "Ukrainian boat" to create this story and afterwards cry "Ukraine is evil and behind it". And loyal Putin serfs, like you are one, are doing the rest to push this story again and again.  

It's not surprising that Putin's war crimes apologists in the West have selected the "Ukrainian boat" theory because it's such a nebulous story and perfectly suited for Putler's approach to sow discord among Ukraine's allies, why not providing any valid proof. It's a story that nebulous that Putin's loyal servs can accuse Ukraine of anything.
You are a perfect tool for Putin to commit more war crimes in Ukraine and it's really surpsrising how vehemently you are trying to accuse Ukraine without having any solid proof.
Everyday a new post, today 2 new posts, so we are at post number 9 defending Putler.  

In opposite to you, I'm doing research and also thinking about it if it's making sense or not.
You are obviously lacking any critical thinking skills or why are you pushing this weak story now in over half a dozen posts, again and again? Putin really likes to have such loyal serfs like you because without you, he would be able to kill much less Ukrainians. People like you are the problem why Putin feels emboldened to invade Ukraine because people like you would keep purchasing cheap gas, funding Putins aggression and let him take whole Ukraine.
Shame, shame...


And you should read the forum rules and avoid pyramid quotes as well...  
But reading is not your strength, obviously...

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It not even benefitted Germany anymore. When the pipelines were blown up, Germany had decided to abandon Russian gas, so all the pipelines would have been unseless anyways even if they'd still exist.
Also important to note, that 2 pipelines of NS1 were blown up but only 1 pipeline of NS2. 1 pipeline from NS2 is still intact.
And - no surprise - shortly after the explosions, Putin suggested to open the remaining NS2 pipeline.

Putin offers Europe gas through Nord Stream 2 - DW - 10/12/2022


Not suspicious, that one pipeline is still intact and Putin wants to start his NS2 project to keep Germany dependent and fund his russian war machine - not suspicious at all.

I appreciate the beginning of the transition from the silly denial stage into acceptance stage. But i'm truly stumbled by your question, pretense that Ukraine can set off explosions anywhere in the world is truly preposterous. Wait, perhaps you just believe that Ukraine is in war with Denmark or Sweden too? Perhaps you should ask paxmao why he feels that this is an act of war against those countries? Or you should ask US or Western allies why they view it as a sabotage on critical infrastructure? I'm not sure how else I can explain that Ukraine cannot blow up civilian infrastructures inside other countries Or are you still just trying to involve as many countries into this as you can to get the WW3 going by setting the precedent for Russia to blow up some pipeline/civ. infrastructure in another country too?

It appears that Netherlands intelligence was (the small EU country) that tipped everyone off about the sabotage, and the ones that were wondering if they got this info how others could not have known about this.


I am still waiting for you to provide any "right information (better, information that is right)" from you outside of what you've seen in your dreams last night. What would it take for you to change your mind on this, and admit UA involvement? Would you concede once Germany issues arrest warrants for those Ukrainians involved? But what am i saying, after all if flat earthers can deny that the earth is a sphere and no evidence is good enough for them, why shouldn't you be able to deny Ukraine involvement in Nord Stream sabotage?

Well, what can anybody expect? When you poke your sharp, little stick at Big Bear Russia, you're going to get swatted.

Now, think about this one thing. As Ukraine killed maybe more than 1400 Russians and Ukrainians since 2014 before Russia retaliated...
And then Ukraine lost a whole bunch of land to the Russians for it...
What does anybody think is going to happen to the tiny Ukraine that is left if they continue trying to turn this thing into a all out war?

Russia might not take all of Ukraine, but there won't be any Ukraine left at all.

Fat chance... I think Ruzzian society has "embraced the suck". They are mostly apathic and just either believing or pretending that nothing is happening or just accepting it like a fact of life and go about their business or to the front if they are enslaved enlisted to go.

For example, I saw a video of a big "boom" in Sevastopol... filmed by someone sunbathing in a nearby beach, and it was not deserted precisely, people just kept about their stuff... nothing new, no problem, nothing to worry about Vania. Or during Prigozin's "lobbying to influence legislation" with an armed column, people just went to the streets to see the tanks as if a carnival parade (well, short of was I recon).

I think they do not see how the change is possible, it could only come from the military and that is probably not a change. How could it happen? If the economy really goes down the drain very badly and there is a serious problem in the front.

That is funny.The terrorists are yelling,look out,terrorist attacks against our country.As Zelensky said,the war will come to Russia,especially to those parts supporting the unprovoked illegal war at the maximum and it has started yesterday with a boom in that optical factory,of course the Russians said it was the boiler room taking fire but Ukraine presidential advisor said from the images and videos shown it does not look like it was the pyrotechnics who got fire claiming may be some other reason.It is good for the Russians to feel the same pain Ukrainians have so maybe they react and call to the reason to act upon and stop Putler.

I have no interest whatsoever in "getting you", I do have interest in providing the right information (better, information that is right). You did not just say "Ukraine did it" (which I freely translate for the Ukrainian Government organised it), you said there was irrefutable proof of it. You showed some articles that mention very loose connections and mostly suspicions (even the titles of some say "suspicion").

Bottom line, there is no proof. My personal view - Russia most likely did it. My guess is that Ukraine would not damage infrastructure that mostly benefits Germany - an ally - and could stop EU aid if detected. Yes, I will write it again, the NS benefited mostly Germany.

You seem to be enormously agitated by this pipeline that was made useless by your glorious leader long before it was damaged. What happened to the whole "let Europe freeze" strategy?

Anyways, even if "Ukraine" had done it, how the fuck would it be terrorism if they're at war with Putinstan... are we still pretending that it's just a "special operation" and it's super unfair for the special operators to suffer any consequences?

Seriously i have provided citations from major international publications with quotes of their sources in intelligence agencies all over the world, and best you could come up with is a quote from a German public-service television broadcaster with 16% reach in Germany citing an "expert in maritime security"? Pretty weak from the start but if your whole hypothesis is resting on this, lets take a look.


I concede, you got me, you're absolutely correct! I said that Ukraine did it, but Ukraine is a country and as such technically unable to perform terrorism, which only humans are capable of doing.

You should read less Putin propaganda, you are already lying like Russian propagandists from Putler TV.
So, the expert Göran Swistek from my post above is "no citation"?  
Seriously?

https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/nord-stream-andromeda-segeljacht-anschlag-sabotage-ukraine-krieg-102.html

Are you accusing me of plagiarism now? It's not a "citation"?
You are just delusional.

But to disappoint you even more, here's another German investigation where your "Ukrainian boat" theory gets rejected:

Putin's secret convoi

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Nope, except bombing and destroying Ukrainian cities, fooling idiots like you is everything, Putin has "achieved" so far. What a shameful record...  


Luckily Putin's clowns are far away from getting into power in Germany, so I have to disappoint you.  

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I stand corrected, it's your 6th post where you are defending war criminal Putler...  

The Ukraine leaders don't mind so much when their soldiers are wounded or killed by Russians. They have found a good use for dead or wounded soldiers. More than likely, any dead or wounded Russians that Ukraine grabs, wind up in the same position.


Kiev covering up illegal organ trade – Moscow

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https://www.rt.com/russia/580958-russia-ukraine-organ-trafficking/
Russia's Foreign Ministry spokeswoman has alleged that members of Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky's administration are personally engaged in, and are covering up, the illicit export of human organs.

In an article published on the Foreign Ministry's website, Maria Zakharova cited media reports suggesting that the organs of killed Ukrainian soldiers, such as hearts, kidneys and livers, have been appearing on some of the biggest marketplaces of the dark net, with prices starting at €5,000 ($5,500). One dealer allegedly claimed that it takes 48-60 hours to receive any desired organ in a medical box, with deliveries limited to EU countries.

Zakharova noted that organs were also being traded offline, citing reports from June that representatives of a health ministry in a NATO country had struck a deal with some "private businessmen" who were assisted by Ukraine's Health Ministry and Presidential Office to deliver a refrigerated train car full of human organs and body parts.

According to the spokeswoman, organ trafficking in Ukraine has boomed since the authorities in Kiev passed a number of laws that "drastically simplified the work of transplant specialists in the country."

Specifically, Zakharova pointed to last year's Law No. 5610, which exempted transplantation from value-added tax, and the December 2021 Law No. 5831, which removed the need to notarise the written consent or authenticate the signature of a living donor to give up their organs.
...

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Again, making things up - I did not ever say I am a journalist.

I do not make any claim, I clearly stated that I am expressing my view based on my reasoning on who has to gain from the event. I am not blind and I understand that there are other reasons why this could have been done by others. The Nordstream by-passed Ukraine, that is there for everyone to see.

However you are effectively making a claim stating that there is "irrefutable proof" - that is not an view or an opinion, is an statement of facts -  thus you do have to provide such evidence. But you cannot, because whether you like it or not secret ops are mostly secret unless Snowden shows himself around.

Another anonymous forum investigative journalist uncovering false flag operations without a single citation. You funny, yes yes now Putin controls all western media. It's your right not to believe what every single major newspaper says, or their quotes of gov officials. Just don't expect anyone to believe your silly conspiracy theories. I fully expect Germany to issue arrest warrants for those Ukrainians soon, then you'll have two options either claim they're RU double secret agents or Putin brainwashed all Germans with his alien ray gun. What's even more hilarious is that you're not even original in this thought, as covering your ears and ignoring everything is pretty much the current official position  


You can pretend that you're an investigative journalist all you want, but unlike your claims made without any citations, these are not my accusations, you're not arguing with me but with Washington Post, WSJ, Spigel, Guardian, New York Times, CNN etc etc etc...(which are really not known to sympathize with Russia, in fact i don't know what major publication did NOT pick up on this story). So instead of posting your opinions on anonymous forum i suggest you write a strongly worded letter to all these newspapers and let them know how they're all wrong and that they should retract their story, because paxmao just refuses to believe it, and together with 1miau have another theory of how it all went down with Putin on the narwhal. Post a link and I'll gladly read it if you'll get them to published it. I hate to be the one breaking it to you this way, but without citing more credible sources, no one really cares if an anonymous user is not convinced that the world is spherical.

Nobody - not even Putin - wants to burn down the people he wants to trade with.

All this russianian terroristics shit is just an idea of Yanukovich and Khuilo. Just Google the "Yanukovich's letter".
Russians are not RSFSRanians and not a russianians, who stolen a weapons of USSR, and betrayed the people of USSR, and real democracy in USSR.
Let's fuck them all, with all their generalitetes.

Finally we have something to discuss, it takes you a while to get of the irate responses and actually say something even if you have just one source and even if it is behind a paywall.

So, you base you accusation to the Ukrainian government of blowing up the NS because:

- A small vessel was around (definetly not at "the scene" which is 80 m below the water).
- That small vessel was rented by an Ukrainian company and sailed / operated from Poland.
- The vessel was in the area for 12 hours.
- Intelligence sources (take with plenty of salt) say that the US told Ukraine not to blow it up.

Anything else? Because that is not enough.

Other sources say:


Oh... BA you are doubting now? Your post usually say "when Trump wins" but this time is "If Trump wins". Are you loosing your faith? Is it because of the indictments that you are no longer sure?

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2023/trump-criminal-investigations-cases-tracker-list/




And I hear you say this a man-hunt, all politically motivated?  When you are the f**ing president of the USA you have to behave exceptionally well, because you hold exceptional power. This is something that Trump does not seem to understand and is bringing shame to the nation.

A pity that the best the dems could put together was Biden.

Once Putler has deported all Ukrainians from Ukraine to Siberia, yes. 
But well not actually peace, see below:

I doubt it. Once Putin realizes he can burn down half of Europe without much resistance, he'll certainly do it. 
Or haven't Russians said "we'll march to Warsaw / Berlin / Paris / London"? It's just one of my nightmares, I guess... 

Kinda right. If Trump wins, we will have peace in Ukraine and Russia, and probably in the China-Taiwan thing, and in many other places in the world. Then, the US will probably resign from Nato, and there will be even more peace.