Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 10.

LoyceV

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Quote from: fillippone on February 07, 2023, 05:33:18 PM

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.

Although it's true copper easily corrodes (we have old buildings with copper roofs that are now green), it also forms a protective layer. Plain iron would rust away completely, copper doesn't.
Also, since copper is much softer, it's much easier to use a letter stamp. Stainless steel is quite difficult to dent. I haven't tried, but I can't imagine the (much deeper) letters in copper are hard to read. And even if that's the case after 50 years in the rain, just use some sand paper to remove the green surface and you'll have green letters on a red copper plate.

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Quote from: Cricktor on February 07, 2023, 02:51:36 PM

Quote from: alexeyneu on February 03, 2023, 11:05:33 AM

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Brilliant suggestion! Roll Eyes

Well, not really. Corrosion resistance of copper depending on conditions isn't the best compared to stainless steel or titanium and copper's melting point is too close to house fire temperatures. What's the point going the bargain route here?

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.
Why should you use copper? 10$is not that different from the price of the washers.

dkbit98

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Quote from: alexeyneu on February 03, 2023, 11:05:33 AM

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Copper is durable metal and you can use it, but stainless steel is better in every way and it's even cheaper than copper if you buy washers in your local shop, they are less than $10.
If copper was better than everyone would use it to make metal backups for Bitcoin, and I only saw one or two products who did that, compared to hundreds of projects that use stainless steel.
FYI Copper melting point is 1981 F (1083 C), and for stainless steel that is 2750 F (1510 C), big difference if fire happens near your metal backup.

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Quote from: alexeyneu on February 03, 2023, 11:05:33 AM

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Brilliant suggestion! Roll Eyes

Well, not really. Corrosion resistance of copper depending on conditions isn't the best compared to stainless steel or titanium and copper's melting point is too close to house fire temperatures. What's the point going the bargain route here?

alexeyneu

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i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Welsh

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Quote from: m2017 on February 03, 2023, 01:27:42 AM

In general, as I said, there are a lot of options where and how to hide seed phrase. It all depends on having the right tools and creative ideas.

That's true, but we don't have to be all that creative. Who's going to scan your walls with a metal detector? Even, if they did, and it went off it could be pipes or anything really. There's a ton of metal in my walls. Plus, no one's really going to think of that unless you're a really high target, but most of us aren't targets to that. So, while I like the discussion about creative ideas, I think we should probably keep it to realistic threat levels.

Plus, I'm not convinced by door hinges. I've seen some very poor quality hinges which rust like crazy when exposed to moisture. So, I'd preferably go for something that's resistant to corrosion.

LoyceMobile

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Still, I've never heard of anything searching walls with a metal detector for Bitcoin Wink

The only reason to do that would be to avoid drilling in pipes.
I'm not worried about this. Besides, I'd fill the hole with a screw, which makes it even more obvious there's metal.

m2017

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Quote from: LoyceMobile on February 03, 2023, 08:55:14 AM

Quote from: m2017 on February 03, 2023, 01:27:42 AM

But a metal detector will still be able to detect the presence of metal.

When taking about concrete walls, i assumed it's reinforced concrete (which has steel rods in there). So a metal detector will always detect something.

I understand you, but you are missing one small detail. The detectors easily distinguish between iron (with which concrete walls are reinforced) and stainless steel (which your washers or plates will most likely be made of). Therefore, experienced people who know how to use a metal detector without any problems and accurately determine the location of foreign metal in the wall. Unless seed-phrase is applied to a piece of iron, so as not to stand out against the rest of the background, but will be subject to corrosion.

What do I want to say? There are many different factors to consider when choosing how to store seed-phrases and locations. There will always be people who can find hidden places made by other people.

LoyceMobile

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Quote from: m2017 on February 03, 2023, 01:27:42 AM

But a metal detector will still be able to detect the presence of metal.

When taking about concrete walls, i assumed it's reinforced concrete (which has steel rods in there). So a metal detector will always detect something.

m2017

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Quote from: LoyceMobile on February 02, 2023, 09:12:32 AM

It's not a bad idea though, a piece of paper behind a door hinge is much easier than stamping 24 words in 12 different hinges.
But I'd rather put it in a hole in concrete, much better fire resistance and less likely for anyone to ever find.

It will be better to store in a hole in concrete than in a doorway. But I think it’s better not on a piece of paper, but in the form of a rod, like cryptosteel capsule or hexagonal stainless steel rod. Drilled a hole and inserted, it's simple. Of course, disguised.

Again, nothing prevents the washers from being hidden in the concrete. You just have to make the hole a little larger in size and it is better to fill the voids with concrete or something similar so that the cavities don't tap out. But a metal detector will still be able to detect the presence of metal. Then the option with a piece of paper turns out to be better, having previously processed it from destruction and placed, for example, in fireproof packaging.

In general, as I said, there are a lot of options where and how to hide seed phrase. It all depends on having the right tools and creative ideas.

fillippone

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This is a very fun idea. Yet, the simplicity, flexibility and security of a bolt with washers is still unbeaten in my opinion.

Speaking of simplicity: I noticed Shiftcrypto sells tamper evident bags:

https://shiftcrypto.shop/en/products/tamper-evident-bags-27/?packagesize=5-bags

dkbit98

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Quote from: n0nce on February 02, 2023, 12:36:10 PM

Something like this, but obviously on the other side.

Make sure to double check if you have the correct side.
I remember guys who worked on my new windows several years ago, they totally screwed everything up and set them up in reversed way, yeah this really happened.

Instead of using this hinges on heavy doors, I would suggest adding them to smaller doors maybe on wardrobe, closet or maybe smaller kitchen or toilet elements.
Nobody will look for seed words in my toilet, right? Cheesy

n0nce

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Quote from: LoyceMobile on February 02, 2023, 09:12:32 AM

It's not a bad idea though, a piece of paper behind a door hinge is much easier than stamping 24 words in 12 different hinges.
But I'd rather put it in a hole in concrete, much better fire resistance and less likely for anyone to ever find.

I thought the idea was to stamp all the words into a single hinge. Or maybe 2 hinges of a door. In total they have 4 individual (hidden) sides, so it would only be 3 words per hinge-part.

Something like this, but obviously on the other side.

Words are supposed to go here.

LoyceMobile

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It's not a bad idea though, a piece of paper behind a door hinge is much easier than stamping 24 words in 12 different hinges.
But I'd rather put it in a hole in concrete, much better fire resistance and less likely for anyone to ever find.

n0nce

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Quote from: NotATether on February 02, 2023, 06:54:37 AM

Quote from: m2017 on February 02, 2023, 02:33:37 AM

Door hinges, as it turned out, are made of nickel, brass, and even stainless steel 304 (easily googled in a well-known chinese store). And also, you can pick up other stainless steel fittings who want to hide the phrase under them. There is a wide field for creativity here.

*Don't try this if the furniture is not yours, obviously, like if you are renting an apartment.

It would probably be restricted to one piece of paper though. Because as you stuff more papers inside a hinge or any other place, really, it starts to get cumbersome to keep all the papers inside without overflowing.

Stuffing is a creative idea; but I believe we're talking about engraving the seed phrase onto the back part of the hinge (that faces the wood).

NotATether

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Quote from: m2017 on February 02, 2023, 02:33:37 AM

Door hinges, as it turned out, are made of nickel, brass, and even stainless steel 304 (easily googled in a well-known chinese store). And also, you can pick up other stainless steel fittings who want to hide the phrase under them. There is a wide field for creativity here.

*Don't try this if the furniture is not yours, obviously, like if you are renting an apartment.

It would probably be restricted to one piece of paper though. Because as you stuff more papers inside a hinge or any other place, really, it starts to get cumbersome to keep all the papers inside without overflowing.

m2017

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Quote from: fillippone on February 01, 2023, 04:29:38 PM

Quote from: n0nce on February 01, 2023, 04:02:14 PM

It's a pretty old idea, no? At least I've heard it a couple times before.
Definitely an alternative to washers in terms of acquiring a flat piece of metal at a cheap price, with built-in concealment.

Although I still believe washers to be the most versatile option, as well as more common in a wide variety of materials. I.e. I can get super-high-temp-special-washers, meanwhile it will be much harder to find similarly fire-resistant door hinges.

I guess washers are absolutely a superior choice. Again because they are easily moveable to a different location when needed. What might have you to do in case you need to clear your house in a few minutes?

In the case of door hinges, if they hide seed-phrase on the reverse side, it will not be difficult to quickly remove them if necessary. All you need to do is unscrew a few screws.

In general, the idea is quite interesting. In fact, you can hide seed-phrase in this way in any piece of furniture that uses metal elements.

The challenge, in my opinion, is finding hinges (or other pieces of metal in your furniture) made of quality metal that are resistant to corrosion, shattering, and fire.

Door hinges, as it turned out, are made of nickel, brass, and even stainless steel 304 (easily googled in a well-known chinese store). And also, you can pick up other stainless steel fittings who want to hide the phrase under them. There is a wide field for creativity here.

fillippone

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Quote from: n0nce on February 01, 2023, 04:02:14 PM

It's a pretty old idea, no? At least I've heard it a couple times before.
Definitely an alternative to washers in terms of acquiring a flat piece of metal at a cheap price, with built-in concealment.

Although I still believe washers to be the most versatile option, as well as more common in a wide variety of materials. I.e. I can get super-high-temp-special-washers, meanwhile it will be much harder to find similarly fire-resistant door hinges.

I guess washers are absolutely a superior choice. Again because they are easily moveable to a different location when needed. What might have you to do in case you need to clear your house in a few minutes?

n0nce

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Quote from: fillippone on February 01, 2023, 01:59:19 PM

A nice idea to hide your seed:

Of course there is a big risk when you want to recover your seed, or that you unvoluntailty expose it if you forget it's hidden there! (it can happen!)

It's a pretty old idea, no? At least I've heard it a couple times before.
Definitely an alternative to washers in terms of acquiring a flat piece of metal at a cheap price, with built-in concealment.

Although I still believe washers to be the most versatile option, as well as more common in a wide variety of materials. I.e. I can get super-high-temp-special-washers, meanwhile it will be much harder to find similarly fire-resistant door hinges.

fillippone

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Quote from: LoyceMobile on February 01, 2023, 02:26:44 PM

Sorry honey, I'm doing some online shopping, I'll put back the 12 doors when I'm done.

Those looks like hinges from a big closet/wardrobe. So probably detaching one of those at a time doesn't need to fully dismount the door.
But you are right, ultimately the problem is the security in writing/reading the seeds. A little bit like the scenario descrived here in the thread of the seed engraved on the external case of a safe in a wall.

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