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Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack - page 18. (Read 136158 times)

member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10

By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.


If you have nothing to fear and tell the truth, why are you fighting so strongly against providing this little AML compliance info?
Do your best and send it to them! -> Problem solved!

It's not a little. It's the entire trace of financial transactions and confidential identifications of all known involved parties, all certified!

And they have to be sent to a "company" without registration number, telephone or address. And according to AurumXchange, this is the first time they blocked funds!

I have provided Mt. Gox with my identification documents, but I'm not willing to do the same for AurumXchange due to their shady business activities. I'm more willing to file a lawsuit against Roberto personally (because there's no company registration details).
In my opinion no big hindrance for such an amount of money. I am also confident that AurumXchange will provide you with contact information since it is obviously in their interest to solve this issue as quickly as possible. So far they act very constructive and supportive.

This business wasn't so shady when you exchanged your funds - so you will have to bear the consequences!
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
Public clarification #2

Chen Jianhai has attempted to cash out $5,000 of LR exchanged from stolen Bitcoins owned by Bitcoinica. However the funds have been blocked by AurumXchange.

There is solid evidence that the $5,000 was Bitcoinica's stolen properties, because the email and LR account matched the hacker's identity. The bank account was purchased from the black market though.

AurumXchange is possessing $5,000 of Bitcoinica's stolen funds at the moment. Also the total income from other Chen Jianhai's money laundering transactions is estimated to be about $2,200, calculated from the data provided by AurumXchange.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502

By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.


If you have nothing to fear and tell the truth, why are you fighting so strongly against providing this little AML compliance info?
Do your best and send it to them! -> Problem solved!

It's not a little. It's the entire trace of financial transactions and confidential identifications of all known involved parties, all certified!

And they have to be sent to a "company" without registration number, telephone or address. And according to AurumXchange, this is the first time they blocked funds!

I have provided Mt. Gox with my identification documents, but I'm not willing to do the same for AurumXchange due to their shady business activities. I'm more willing to file a lawsuit against Roberto personally (because there's no company registration details).
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
Public clarification #1

"Transfer for a friend" is not "third-party transfer" and is not "money laundering".

I was not merely doing a simple transfer, I was doing a business with this friend by giving him preferential foreign exchange rates compared to his banks, for a return of a small commission.

The supposed procedure:

Friend's LR                ->   My LR (my revenue to perform the service)
My LR                      ->   My USD bank account (my own exchange activity through AurumXchange, et al.)
My USD bank account ->   X (my own exchange activity for forex)
X                            ->   My SGD bank account (my own withdrawal in another currency)
My SGD bank account ->   Friend's SGD bank account (my cost to perform the service)

Only the first and last part are related to both my friend and me. It's a common business procedure for all kinds of legitimate trades, and the procedure itself is completely legal.

The suspicion comes from a Bitcoinica hack which happens to involve an email address that I used for testing purpose on mtgox.com, and a transfer on AurumXchange at similar timeframe with an amount of similar order of magnitude. However, "third-party transfer" is strictly defined to be using an exchange service as an intermediary between two different accounts not controlled by the same person.

For example,

My LR -> AurumXchange
AurumXchange -> Friend's bank account

This is third party transfer, and it should trigger an AML investigation immediately.

A common use of third-party transfer is scamming:

Trader A: I want to buy some Bitcoins
Trader B: Sure, send the funds to *** (AurumXchange's bank account), and make sure you have transaction reference XXX
Trader A: Done
Trader B gets a Mt. Gox code from AurumXchange, and deposits into an unverified Mt. Gox account, and cash out Bitcoins.
Trader B never pays Trader A anything.
Trader A: You are a scammer! I'm reporting to the police with your bank account.
AurumXchange will be investigated, and Trader B may never appear again.

This IS the real (third-party transfer == money laundering) you're talking about.

EDIT:

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing when I deem to be factually wrong and worth a public clarification. You should continue contacting me at [email protected] for other clarifications or explanations. You shouldn't expect me to read/reply every single post in this thread.

Laundering = conceal the origin of funds. this is exactly what you try to do by covering your "friend"
(I can understand that you protect him from the public but with AurumXchange you should put your cards on the table)
After you stated publicly that you are acting for a third party in this transaction ergo not acting on your behalf, AurumXchange was responsible to prove that everything is legitimate. Your friend could have used an unknown source to hand the funds over to you, just to receive them in his own account. In this scenario you would have been an intermediary of money laundering. The sole thing you have to do is provide all information concerning this transaction to AurumXchange to prove it is legitimate. If you are doing your best you should provide this information quickly.

Your scenario:
If you run an exchange business you would probably need a licence in which case you as intermediary are responsible of supervising  AML-regulations. I doubt you have this kind of business and guess it is a theoretical construction to serve your cause.

I'm not acting for a third party. AurumXchange has no legal obligation to send the money to my friend.

I was stating that the source of funds is my friend, and I have no knowledge of any money laundering activity. I'm not wilfully protecting a criminal from money laundering because his business activity is legitimate.

AurumXchange has the obligation to report to authority if they believe the transaction is suspicious. At the same time, they can release the funds either to source account or destination account because criminal liability will be waived (they can legally proceed with the business so that no information about AML is divulged, and they are not subject to accomplice crime, according to Dominican laws).
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10

By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.


If you have nothing to fear and tell the truth, why are you fighting so strongly against providing this little AML compliance info?
Do your best and send it to them! -> Problem solved!
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
Public clarification #1

"Transfer for a friend" is not "third-party transfer" and is not "money laundering".

I was not merely doing a simple transfer, I was doing a business with this friend by giving him preferential foreign exchange rates compared to his banks, for a return of a small commission.

The supposed procedure:

Friend's LR                ->   My LR (my revenue to perform the service)
My LR                      ->   My USD bank account (my own exchange activity through AurumXchange, et al.)
My USD bank account ->   X (my own exchange activity for forex)
X                            ->   My SGD bank account (my own withdrawal in another currency)
My SGD bank account ->   Friend's SGD bank account (my cost to perform the service)

Only the first and last part are related to both my friend and me. It's a common business procedure for all kinds of legitimate trades, and the procedure itself is completely legal.

The suspicion comes from a Bitcoinica hack which happens to involve an email address that I used for testing purpose on mtgox.com, and a transfer on AurumXchange at similar timeframe with an amount of similar order of magnitude. However, "third-party transfer" is strictly defined to be using an exchange service as an intermediary between two different accounts not controlled by the same person.

For example,

My LR -> AurumXchange
AurumXchange -> Friend's bank account

This is third party transfer, and it should trigger an AML investigation immediately.

A common use of third-party transfer is scamming:

Trader A: I want to buy some Bitcoins
Trader B: Sure, send the funds to *** (AurumXchange's bank account), and make sure you have transaction reference XXX
Trader A: Done
Trader B gets a Mt. Gox code from AurumXchange, and deposits into an unverified Mt. Gox account, and cash out Bitcoins.
Trader B never pays Trader A anything.
Trader A: You are a scammer! I'm reporting to the police with your bank account.
AurumXchange will be investigated, and Trader B may never appear again.

This IS the real (third-party transfer == money laundering) you're talking about.

EDIT:

I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing when I deem to be factually wrong and worth a public clarification. You should continue contacting me at [email protected] for other clarifications or explanations. You shouldn't expect me to read/reply every single post in this thread.

Laundering = conceal the origin of funds. this is exactly what you try to do by covering your "friend"
(I can understand that you protect him from the public but with AurumXchange you should put your cards on the table)
After you stated publicly that you are acting for a third party in this transaction ergo not acting on your behalf, AurumXchange was responsible to prove that everything is legitimate. Your friend could have used an unknown source to hand the funds over to you, just to receive them in his own account. In this scenario you would have been an intermediary of money laundering. The sole thing you have to do is provide all information concerning this transaction to AurumXchange to prove it is legitimate. If you are doing your best you should provide this information quickly.

Your scenario:
If you run an exchange business you would probably need a licence in which case you as intermediary are responsible of supervising  AML-regulations. I doubt you have this kind of business and guess it is a theoretical construction to serve your cause.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
@AurumXchange: Is sufficient Information provided to drop money laundering investigations?[/b]

I will let you draw your own conclusions:

The $40,000 I exchanged at AurumXchange was indeed from a friend.

I use my own Liberty Reserve account for all my own transactions, including those on behalf of my friend.

I'll try to ask my friend if he's okay with publicizing the related transactions, or I can wait until the investigation is concluded (or the real hacker being found).

So, I have done a deal "for a friend" on AurumXchange using my own account.

Unfortunately, my friend (the source of legitimate LR funds) does not wish to be involved in this disaster because he is supposed to be irrelevant. He's fine with providing information to the authorities, but definitely not to the Bitcoin community after he has read this thread.

At this time, certain things have been put in motion and our attorneys advice us to refrain from answering further questions, or making any further statements regarding this issue on a public forum.

Zhou: Please provide KYC/AML compliance information as per our instructions, and have your attorney contact us. If you believe we are at fault by holding the funds in question, you are well within your rights of filling a lawsuit against our company.

Thank you
Roberto


The last private communication I have received from you is "Do you want the address of our company?", I said yes.

There's no company name, no registration details, no telephone number and no address on your website.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
@ZHOU What is the status on the FIAT-Recovery?

Waiting for Patrick Murck's instruction and to my best knowledge, he is waiting for Bitcoinica's instruction.

I can't start recovery of the funds before I'm told "OK" by either party. In case Patrick Murck doesn't want to hold the stolen funds, I can be in trouble if I have asked Chen Jianhai to transfer the funds "for the purpose of recovery".

I'll co-operate to any legal actions to my best ability. Until someone (Patrick Murck or Bitcoinica) complains publicly, you should assume that I'm doing my best.

Since I assume that you do your best, I also assume you will transfer all recovered funds (140.000) and not retain anything to cover your friend until this AurumXchange issue is solved. Am I right?

That was just a proposal, or you can say it's a way to make AurumXchange comfortable of not freezing the funds. I will be sure to take legal advice before I do that.

By the way, a freezing order by court in Dominica is only effective for 7 days unless a money laundering crime is charged within 7 days. Also divulging any information about an ongoing AML investigation is a criminal offence, punishable with up to $250,000 in fines and 10 years of inprisonment. (The inprisonment for money laundering itself is up to 7 years.)

Reference: Dominican Money Laundering Prevention Act (2000)

This means that AurumXchange must have received an order by a more superior party than court to have frozen the funds for more than 7 days, and/or an AML investigation has not formally taken place.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?

Yes. I'm recovering the first 15k BTC to show "good faith" and "co-operation". The remaining will be recovered after all the fiat has been recovered. The fiat money is the most legally sensitive part of this deal, and it should have taken place before Bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet

So, you've had another day to think of another excuse, and you come here thinking we're going to believe you??

I would have had more respect for you if you had just admitted you stole the money and were returning it to avoid jail time.

So a fact becomes "excuse". And you're not believing it without reading.

And people should do things for "respect", not for truths.

You are very pragmatic and I like it. I respect you now, happy?

Returning the money will not avoid jail time. However it might reduce the amount of time spent. Judges seems to like remorse. However that is not what has been expressed :/



Why would he get jail time? Was there a crime committed? What crime was that? Which country was it committed in? Who committed it? I'm missing some details here...

You're missing a lot more than some details...

Would you mind helping me understand? Can you answer my questions above or are you also completely in the dark? I'll take your lack of response to each question above as a sign that you also do not know the answer to the questions and thank you anyway for your time.
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970

So, you've had another day to think of another excuse, and you come here thinking we're going to believe you??

I would have had more respect for you if you had just admitted you stole the money and were returning it to avoid jail time.

So a fact becomes "excuse". And you're not believing it without reading.

And people should do things for "respect", not for truths.

You are very pragmatic and I like it. I respect you now, happy?

Returning the money will not avoid jail time. However it might reduce the amount of time spent. Judges seems to like remorse. However that is not what has been expressed :/



Why would he get jail time? Was there a crime committed? What crime was that? Which country was it committed in? Who committed it? I'm missing some details here...

You're missing a lot more than some details...
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?
+1
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Hi Zhou,

I think there was one question that you didn't answer from one of my earlier emails. You said you could recover 20k BTC and to date have recovered 15k BTC. Are you still able to recover the other 5k BTC?
aq
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
...
I can't say it was a waste though as I still feel this community is stale and lacking character (or the character it has chosen is basically anti-social and troll infested). I mean, look at this thread as a clear example. The only times anyone is passionate and involved in something is when they're out for blood. It's really sad. Whenever a member of the bitcoin community stands up for what they believe in and makes a mistake, they are treated like some sort of plague by the trolls here. It's a vivid reflection of world politics, "I can't stand what's going on but I refuse to get involved, learn a skill and help change it!". Zhou Tong developed and supported an idea, as a child. Adults, with logic and reason dumped way too much money into a child's website. The website is sold to someone else. The child no longer runs or owns it, and it gets hacked. The forum's solution? Blame the child. What a sick bunch of losers they must be.
...
Matthew, while I am probably not your greatest fan, you are right on that this "community" contains a lot of people that seems to have a really bad character.
But lets face it, eventually Bitcoin will replace a lot of banking related things, and I think what we see is only the beginning. I guess to some of those "trolls" Bitcoin is a real threat. Do you know how much revenue the banks and other entities make by just, well, keeping and transfering our money? It is really gigantic, and Bitcoin will, not today or tomorrow, but eventually, cost them a few billions. So I think we should get used to have tons of people in the Bitcoin world, which have only one agenda, and that is to destroy Bitcoin.
Think about it, we even have passionate "fans" of litecoin, solidcoin, or whatever name the daily scam-coin has, who would love to destroy Bitcoin in favor for their scam-coins. And now guess what all those people in the fiat world would love to do, once they see their billions of easy profit in danger.
And then there are also tons of frustrated guys out there, that just love to do some witch hunt, and currently ZT is the perfect victim for them.
We have to learn to deal with people from both of those groups.
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
@ZHOU What is the status on the FIAT-Recovery?

Waiting for Patrick Murck's instruction and to my best knowledge, he is waiting for Bitcoinica's instruction.

I can't start recovery of the funds before I'm told "OK" by either party. In case Patrick Murck doesn't want to hold the stolen funds, I can be in trouble if I have asked Chen Jianhai to transfer the funds "for the purpose of recovery".

I'll co-operate to any legal actions to my best ability. Until someone (Patrick Murck or Bitcoinica) complains publicly, you should assume that I'm doing my best.

Since I assume that you do your best, I also assume you will transfer all recovered funds (140.000) and not retain anything to cover your friend until this AurumXchange issue is solved. Am I right?
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 502
@ZHOU What is the status on the FIAT-Recovery?

Waiting for Patrick Murck's instruction and to my best knowledge, he is waiting for Bitcoinica's instruction.

I can't start recovery of the funds before I'm told "OK" by either party. In case Patrick Murck doesn't want to hold the stolen funds, I can be in trouble if I have asked Chen Jianhai to transfer the funds "for the purpose of recovery".

I'll co-operate to any legal actions to my best ability. Until someone (Patrick Murck or Bitcoinica) complains publicly, you should assume that I'm doing my best.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
www.bitcointrading.com
@Zhou Tong  Would you please make a video of yourself telling the Bitcoin community how hard you are trying to resolve this bad situation.
Many people have difficulty with believing your are real when everyone admits they've never met you. Also, a sign with current date would be a help. We need to provide to the shady parts by bringing a little light into those spaces.
his twitter account pre-dating bitcoin (feb 2009) is proof that Zhou Tong is a real person.. well, as much proof as a twitter account could provide. 

i think it would be a good idea to post some sort of video, but that wouldn't do much for proving innocence in Bitcoinicagate.
member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing

And yet nothing in that post explains you posting on your QQ that you're selling LR, which turns out to come from the same LR account you claim "the hacker" created.



He tried:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1063716

But overall that's a problem - he talks a lot, but doesn't answer the necessary questions to the point to solve the issue.
hero member
Activity: 530
Merit: 500
I only post public clarification when too many people are questioning the same thing

And yet nothing in that post explains you posting on your QQ that you're selling LR, which turns out to come from the same LR account you claim "the hacker" created.

hero member
Activity: 486
Merit: 500
How about paying everyones claims @ 100% before you get any respect...
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