Topic: Statement about the suspect of recent Bitcoinica hack - page 6. (Read 136139 times)

- I call it Bitcoin maths

Very gracious of you


A public announcement is quite right under the circumstances. Disclosing the personal information was a step too far (certainly until it had been fully investigated).


Me neither. Perhaps I should have stated this earlier.


Hear, hear!


I can't tell which are lies and which are truths simply because I don't think the evidence is present to say that ZT has lied (quite possible I've missed it).

There's certainly a lack of evidence to back up his defence but that isn't proof of guilt or lying.



Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it AX that forced ZT to respond in a public forum because they were the first to make mention of any of this (even before filing a police report for what they believed was fraud/theft)? (That's not meant to read snarky, it's just my understanding is the opposite of yours).



Have you seen the other thread that this thread is a response to? I'd forgotten about it too (despite it being only a week old). Here it is for your convenience: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/public-statement-regarding-bitcoinica-account-hack-at-mtgox-95738

It seems to me that ZT was forced to respond publicly, no?



Conceded



I wouldn't say he's innocent either. He created the system, he promoted it and then he sold it. I would debate the amount of responsibility he has though.



I haven't seen where he's lied about functionality and the returns or his abilities but I've been away from the forums for quiet some time but I accept that this might have happened. If so it certainly weakens his position.


I don't know whether he's a minor or not either. I just feel it would be quite a feat of planning to expect to use it for some form of criminal defense in the future in case he got caught out. I accept that at some point he'll be 18 (probably soon if not very recently) but then if he is due to turn 'adult' you're accepting that he's 17 then?


If by adult games you mean steal from the community then that presumes he's guilty. If by adult games you mean by creating Bitcoinica then I don't see why you have to be an adult to create it.


Associating yourself with criminals isn't a smart thing to do. Any adult would know this, especially in the business world. It's certainly something you'll learn from experience but that's the thing, he's a minor. He might not know better.

Also, I'd like to add, ZT hasn't ever mentioned that he's hiding behind the defence of being a minor. I'm the only one that's brought that up and the only reason why I do is because if he is a minor AND he's innocent then he doesn't deserve this.

1) Any belief that he's using his age as a cover is completely fictitious (because I'm the only one that's brought it up)
2) It requires you accept that his age is really 17/18

If you don't think he's a minor then claiming he's using his age as a cover doesn't make sense (but I'm not sure you are making that claim, rather, just debating the point).


I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Are you saying that he should just do as the criminal wants because he could otherwise face real danger?

Well, first of all we can forget the alter-ego story. Tihan Seale has confirmed that Zhou indeed is who he says he is, and I see no reason why he should lie. I am not against trying to find out the truth though, and it is obvious Zhou is not telling us the entire story for whatever reasons. I really think trading 40k the day after the hack is an absolute no-go and still highly suspicious. I therefore understand why AurumXchange never gave him a warning ahead of time. If you have such a serious suspicion, you can't be asked to warn the top suspect. Zhou needs to explain to me and the people on this forum now why he would be crazy enough to trade on that specific day, what kind of money it was, and what relationship he holds with his friend.

I must say that IMO LoupGaroux has more reasonable position on some points of this matter than that of Matthew Wright.

At the same time this bitcoinica story is bizzare^n . So many times before we get over one bizzare event they pile up another bizzare craziness on top of it. I, frankly, do not know what to think. Wait and see here.

No worries.  I can only wish to be as well written as LG.

Comedy gold!


BB.

Apology accepted, but not needed. I accept grammatical errors as sine qua non for the passion exhibited on this forum.

Now- on to your points raised:

You are quite right, any business throwing out unfounded allegations in a public manner could get sued, if it is malicious libel. This appeared to be more of a public announcement directed at the hundreds of users of this community who are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars that have "disappeared" under the fiduciary responsibility of Zhou Tong who accept those funds into escrow.

I haven't lost a penny in this debacle. The only dog I have in this fight, as I quite openly stated in another thread several weeks ago, is to keep a solar flare burning on this issue so that criminal scams of all types will be found out, the guilty parties discovered, and the integrity of our community restored, along with the funds taken from the victims of these scams. His lies are numerous, and his mis-directions are clearly stated for all to see. Building layer upon layer of the story does not change the truth of the issue.

By bringing his story into a public forum, and pleading his case in front of the court of public opinion "Zhou Tong" has given up any reasonable claim to privacy in this affair. You cannot have it both ways, where only some of the story can be spread around to fit the agenda- either all of the story is private, or none of the story is private. Given that "Zhou Tong" himself started this very thread, and made very public claims of very private matters, it seems somewhat disingenuous to ask for privacy when the same consideration is given of his actions and information.

Bitconica was categorically NOT an exchange. It was an leveraged hedge speculation site based on projected future moves in the value of bitcoin against fiat. The site in fact had to rely on outside exchanges for conversion of fiat into bitcoin, and for the movement of payments. Speculation is a form of gambling, albeit one with a more socially acceptable reputation than others, but it is gambling none the less, and there is ample case law history that online gambling IS illegal in many countries. Your kitchen knife is safe from character assassination until it is wielded by my ex-wife, and then it became very nearly "murdering equipment".

Will I feel remorse if by some inconceivable alignment of the planets and the absolute veracity of the Mayan Calendar exonerating "Zhou Tong" from any involvement in this matter? No. He is by no stretch of the imagination "innocent", he crafted the gambling system, promoted it, lied about function and returns, lied about his own abilities when he sought angels to adopt the failure that it was becoming, and has consistently mislead, covered up and shaded the facts to support his own position to the detriment of all. I am not even convinced that he is a minor at all. There seems to be a growing body of proof that he may be buried under yet another layer of false identity, and no person could remain 17 for the length of time that he has claimed to be that age... at some point a birthday will jump up and kick him in the teeth, even if he is using some obscure Confucian calendar, he ages. And, consider the fact of where he chose to play his games. If you want to be considered a child for protection as a minor, do not misrepresent yourself as an adult in an adult world, and play at adults games. By his own statements he is the close associate of someone he alleges is a serious criminal, is this a child who should be accorded some special consideration because he didn't know what he was doing? No.

And a small edit in light of point #3 above about being know as a "grass" (or squealer in the US)... with the level of criminal he is implicating in this matter, and the not insignificant amounts of money involved- this grass will not be long for this world in that community. A good soldier will shut up and take his stripes in this type of case, do his time and be welcome back into the company of criminals afterwards. A squealer won't make it past the first couple of days, giving up Notorious Relic Dealer Chen, and his ilk.

Personally, I think ZT only has two things to worry about.

1) Losing his friend's $40K
2) Not recovering 100% of stolen funds for Bitcoinica users
3) Being known as a grass by his criminal associates


1) If he's innocent, the $40K can't legally be used to cover the losses. If the $40K is actually his, there might be a moral duty to do so.

2) If he's not interested in recovering as much as he can for Bitcoinica users and clearing his name, he should just go to the police. Someone might force his hand and just call his local police station but this would mean taking responsibility for delaying and reducing payments to the victims.

3) I guess that's the price you pay for dealing with questionable characters (unless you didn't know before hand).


* Edited: Removed local police station details

It was a genuine mistake on my part. Apologies again to mlawrence and LoupGaroux.

Ooops - copy pasted the wrong tag - corrected now, thanks.

Can't..tell..if...serious...

He's talking about the quote tag having the wrong author in it I believe. Probably just an editing mistake.

Wow, a ZT style excuse. Different users, sure.... 

Why are you quoting mlawrence as LoupGaroux ?

Different users.

I am okay for #1 only if 100% funds are restored. No bullshit "he sold it at 7.2" thats NOT our problem.

I don't think he's wanting to protect his privacy. He's simply playing the best strategy to ensure his $40K isn't under threat.

Scenario1 - He gives up the ID of the thief. The thief naturally won't return the funds because he's going to face consequences regardless. ZT stands to have the $40K (which is still in his name as it's in his account) used to pay back the stolen funds.

Scenario2 - He waits until the funds are recovered and then allows the community to wreak it's revenge. It sure does look like he's trying to protect Chen's identity but in fact is also operating in his own best interest.



Why waste time and money hiring a PI? There's enough information here for the police to find him easily. If the local police are involved it could be done in a day. I'm surprised those with a stake in this haven't already called the Australian police. I can only guess that they haven't called the police because they would prefer to recover 100% of their funds in a few weeks rather than 45% (or whatever it would be once the police are involved) in a year or two when the case is finally wound up.



For certain, ZT will have to hand over Chen's info. It'll be the proof everyone is looking for. However, it means that those with a financial stake in this stand a good chance of losing financially for that immediate proof. For ZT, he might feel that he would never see his friend's $40K again and then he'd owe someone else $40K.

You're right about one thing though - it would definitively prove which side is bullshitting. Either the angry mob are lying (that they know for certain ZT has stolen their funds) or that ZT is a cunning linguist*

*stolen from James Bond

*Edited - Copy/pasted wrong quote tag. Apologies to LoupGaroux and mlawrence

You're right - no reasonable business would release that kind of information at all because if they're wrong they're going to get sued.



If you've lost a lot of money in this, I can understand why you're so angry but what you're saying right now is you're absolutely, 100% certain he's done this. Without a shadow of a doubt, you know he's a liar. You conclusively know that he's stolen all the Bitcoins and cash. If this is the case, why don't you call the Australian police yourself? They would be able to locate him within a few days, possibly a day considering the sums at stake here.



This isn't true even if he's guilty.


I wouldn't go as far as to call exchanges gambling systems any more than I'd call a kitchen knife murdering equipment.


Whilst I accept that you don't believe there's even the remotest possibility that anything ZT has said is true, imagine for a second if you will that he's eventually cleared of all these charges and it turns out that Chen does exist, how will you feel about saying all these things to an innocent minor?

I never understood why you wanted to protect the privacy of a person you claim framed you for a $500,000 theft.  Do whatever you want Zhou, but I am posting right now to tell you this:

With the interest I have received, we should be hiring a PI early next week.  This PI will locate you in Australia and allow us to file an official theft complaint with the Australian police.

It will then be between you and the police to determine if "Chen" does indeed exist.  If he doesn't, YOU will be the one going to prison for several years.  If he does happen to exist, then you can be fully exonerated in the community, and we can turn our attention on him.  Be advised that the police are not going to accept your wish to keep his identity secret.

This one simple step is going to flush all the bullshit stories that have been floating around this forum.

I can't disagree. ZT really needs to provide evidence or at least explain why he can't.


I accept that too. ZT - you need to at least acknowledge the tough questions.


Who else can help clarify? So far all we've heard from is ZT in this thread.

This is why ZT should have listened to everyone telling him to shut up and get a lawyer. By only selectively answering you give the impression that there's something to hide. By not even acknowledging the questions, it seems like you're trying to avoid things.

I agree with what you. I'd add that I don't think it's quite as simple as that for ZT. There might be a multitude of reasons why he doesn't want to go to the police (I could speculate those reasons but it would just be speculation).


I would agree too except if I were to assume he's making that up, it would be on the basis that I assume he's a liar which would mean I'd be as well saying he's guilty.

Instead, I'd rather say that this isn't any reasonable defence against why his accounts were used until he can prove Chen's existence.

The onus is definitely on him to prove that this person exists. Whilst a police report would provide the necessary proof, it certainly will prevent him from obtaining the rest of the stolen funds. Thing is, how else can Chen be proven to exist without turning Chen against him?

In terms of strategy, it's a case of what is the most important outcome?

1) Retrieving the funds only - keep Chen sweet
2) Punishing the thief only - Report to police
3) Both of the above - Keep Chen sweet, then make a police report once the funds are recovered

1) seems to be the route ZT wants to go
2) would result in fewer funds being returned but justice would be served
3) It's likely the bargaining chip in this would be that no police report is made if the funds are returned

Naturally this assumes that Chen exists.

BULLSHIT.

No reasonable business "release half the information to the suspect privately" there is no need to give a suspect 12 hours advance warning on how to craft his fabrications. You seem to have been able to whip up quite a few interesting and compellingly contradictory stories in 63 minutes, what would you do for the other 10 hours and 57 minutes? Perhaps create a couple of more identities for you future scams, or develop 17 new websites to fleece people out of their money?

You fucked up, and abrogated any consideration of privacy. You created a cluster fuck of a gambling system, ran it illegally as a minor (or ran it illegally under an assumed name without due process) got caught up in it and bailed out to some gangsters who thought they were smarter than you. What part of that deserves privacy? Where exactly in this very public seppuku of your entire life did you come to think you wanted "Privacy". Was it when you lied about your identity? Was it when you lied about your actions in recovering funds for the "investors"? Perhaps when you decided to proclaim your intimate relationship with Notorious Relic Dealer Chen as public property?  

Sorry sonny, but you decided to make this a public (and obviously fraudulent) mea culpa, and you have absolutely no right to any claim of privacy. You decided to shit this all over the bitcoin world, and now you will sit back and suffer as the whole bitcoin world brings it back to you. You will be investigated, you will be charged, and you will be held accountable. Whether you are some Obama loving otaku pinhead, Notorious Relic Dealer Chen's right hand coolie, or just some lonely, unloved ex-pat student struggling to makes ends meet pimpin' between Singapore and Australia, you will be found, you will be brought to justice, and you will learn the consequences of your actions.