Topic: Texas Hold'em and Omaha/Omaha8 Poker Room - NL, Limit, Potlimit games - page 3. (Read 88208 times)

NaturalOrder you deserve to lose your account.. I already stated multiple times that this is the most Facist poker site ever and you still played on it. LOL.

Not gonna take your word on bots playing there now, but I know for a fact that there are almost always player team of 3-4 players most of the time colluding on hands on the table with most players. Bot are probably unlikely and unnecessary. The team members also change their names all the time, but I can easily tell by their play-style because of the limited number of usual suspects on the site due to low traffic.  I can so easily tell these people are trapping fishes, it's laughable. Only reason why people don't see this is because you ARE the fish or you choose to ignore this - looking at you greedy admins.

Also, saying something like "running the business is more profitable so why would they steal" is like saying "Gov only exist to serve the people, so why would it tried to steal from them" It's called because you can and you have the incentive to perform such heinous acts behind the close doors for your own greed. Just saying you are looking at it long term does not provide any logical evidence or reason that proves your company honest in any way. It just provides us with ONE logical reason you MAY NOT act such way, but doesn't guaranty it in any shape or form. You just want people to believe that your company operates with such morals.

wow this naturalorder guy is so annoying, could we please ban him?

Every day he makes new accusations, just 2 days ago he accused me of colluding on your site in an extremely rude and harsh tone. Next day I saw him saying the exact same thing to another person. It's not even funny anymore, please don't waste your dev time replying to him.

You clearly don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. You want to talk about insults to intelligence, it's the fact that you continue to make these arguments without any basis for your claims, and act as though they should be so obvious to anyone.

This is the last time I am going to respond to you, because I'm almost sure you're trolling.

By point:

Not a "dude". And "It's clear as day" is not, in fact, a compelling argument of any sort.

You're right. We would. We'd also have the easiest time running off with the entire balance of the site, or superusing. That, too, is not in any way a compelling argument.

That is correct, a bot is only as good as its writer. I find it interesting that you point this out, because you also claim that a bot has an "insurmountable edge", and clearly that would only be true for the absolute best human players. And the skill involved in writing a bot to any level of skill is orders of magnitude higher than learning to play at that level. Have you ever tried? I have. I gave up a thousand hours later.

This is a non-argument. You are arguing that a bot with access to data that players do not have would have an advantage over those players, though you seem to be quite unimaginative in how you would use this access. Hand history data? Really? Have you ever heard of a HUD? Humans can do exactly what you describe with one of many publicly available software packages, though only for hands they legitimately have the data for.

But if we're moving into the realm of cheating, why in the world would one go to all the trouble of complex opponent modeling? Just give the bot access to the future board cards and allow it to see player hands. A monkey could write a bot that could win under those conditions.

At that point, though, why not just superuse? Why let a computer have all the fun?

Saying that it's an "insult to 'our' intelligence" is also not a compelling argument against my statement. Please provide examples of the winning bots that are so commonly used, and explain why they have an insurmountable edge. The things you named are not arguments in favor of this, as they apply equally well to human players using HUD software. And while you could make the same argument there, you'd be laughed out of any serious poker discussion.

Oh. I'm sorry. There is even less traffic on the site than I said. That sure does destroy my point, which was that it would be really silly to spend an enormous effort to write a winning bot to play on a site that has no traffic instead of taking it somewhere useful.

Yes. There were bots on Stars. They played games we do not spread, and won largely by collusion and volume. They were not run by the site administration, but rather individual players. They were eventually found by large amounts of data mining by interested players that presented statistical evidence for their claims.

And Stars being inaccessible is news to me, I logged on just last night in fact. I mean, if you mean that US players cannot play on Stars for real money? Sure. But the US is not the world, and there are probably ways around that anyway.


Also, that's cute. You claim that terse responses indicate guilt, then when you get a substantial one, that, too, indicates guilt.

Please fly away, troll.

I don't understand something. Well, a few things, but we'll start with the biggest one.

We have quite a lot of BTC on the site right now. Like, a whole lot. I'm not going to give ranges, but, it's definitely more than enough to tempt anyone.

If we were going to scam people...

Why would we resort to anything sneaky? Why would we be, to reference another person, looking for any reason to close an account and confiscate money?

We could close the site and run off with the money, and nothing could be done about it. And I WILL tell you that the amount of BTC we would get from this is much, much higher than we've earned in rake. Much higher than any bot could ever win for us.

So... why would we bother sneaking around like this? If this was a scam, why would we bother doing anything but just taking the money and running?

Why do we essentially beg our users to keep as little money on the site as possible, so we don't have to be responsible for such a large amount of money, if we want to do these things?

That's the first thing. That's the thing no one has ever been able to explain, about any poker site, in any "rigtard" debate. Why bother with the pocket change when you can just take the gold?



Secondly...

Why does everyone assume that bots have magic powers? That they are somehow able to win at poker 100% of the time? Because they don't. They're universally terrible at nearly every game. Why in the world would we spend the insane effort involved in making a winning poker bot to unleash it on... a bitcoin poker site with an average of three tables running at any time? Why not use this magical thing on PokerStars, or really anywhere where you could actually, you know, make money from it?

And if you're implying that this alleged bot that we're running has been given magic powers that allow it to see other players' hands or the future board cards - Why would we run a BOT to do that? Why not just. You know. Give ourselves those powers, and win money that way? It'd be way more fun that way, at the very least.

And the code is open source, too. What, do we have a private fork that implements these features? Yeah, wasting time on managing a separate codebase for cheating sounds like an excellent use of our development time.

Where do we fit that in, and still find time to write patches for the public codebase? Why even bother with the open source if we're going to do that?



You'll have to do better than "No, it's really a bot, I swear, just WATCH it" and "He left a substantial amount of time after I said something on an internet forum, that PROVES it!!" to get anywhere with this.

If you don't want to play on our site, that's cool. I won't try to sugarcoat it, we have a bunch of issues with the client. Stuff is still broken. It's totally reasonable that you wouldn't want to play here over Stars, for example, if you have access to other sites.

But we're paying people to fix it, out of the rake we collect. We're working to fix it ourselves, and we're throwing money at anyone who wants to help. And we're sharing the results of that with the world.

In the long run, this site is going to make us more money than we could get by scamming. Just like Stars doesn't have an incentive to cut and run, or rig their games, because honest games will make them more money in the long run. We don't need to rig it. Honest games pay well enough, and as a bonus, I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning.

I used to play poker professionally. A lot of what I get out of this is emotional. I'm happy to be working on the most advanced open source poker software out there, I'm happy that I am, in some way, helping the online poker community. The money is nice, I won't lie, but there's more to it than that for me. I'm not interested in becoming famous for starting the next UltimateBet.


This is probably just a waste of time - I kind of expect this to fall on deaf ears - but, well, maybe not. I'm not going to let myself be trolled further, though.

I will admit NaturalOrder8 does have a way about him. If you feel you've addressed the concern then you've done your share.

x0Jakeyboy0x, his intention is not to get answer, but start holy war. I already pointed several time online in chat that StarTheory is not a bot. I answered here that too. And if you do not believe my word.. well.. I doubt there is anything else that can prove you =)

I would like to note two things.

One, NaturalOrder8 isn't the best spokesman in this situation and although his intentions in this bot case are good, he is insufficient in his abilities to portray the issues in a tasteful. NaturalOrder8 seems to think he has evidence of a bot being used. If a user by the name of StarTheory is indeed actively playing on a large number of tables, this could very well be true but does not prove so. However even if StarTheory is a bot that does not mean hippich is the owner of said bot.

Two, hippich does seem to have good intentions in providing updates for Betco.in, but obviously good intentions are not keeping his costumers happy. Though, that does not imply he is obligated to. He has the right to run his website any way he wants; bots, scams and all if he so chooses.

That being said, hippich, I recommend that you do answer NaturalOrder8's inquiry in a professional manner as I'm sure he does speak for a greater whole, even if he does represent it poorly. Look into the possibility of StarTheory being a bot and condemn the accusations being put against you. If you do not do this, people such as TheBitMan may begin to see your website in a new light and feel as if you have something to hide. You do have the potential to lose users.

Bugs, bots, and arguing aside however Betco.in is still a halfway decent site and is definitely not a blatant scam.

If you are new to this site..do not use it. When you go to hit bet or raise (after you click it more than 10 times) it makes you fold. Which probably helps him win with all his bots.
I never say a site is bad unless I have used it. And I have used this..it is awful save your self the time and bits. - TheBitMan

I have seen people comment and the ways he responds is extremely unprofessional for simple questions. Also I just saw his bot in a room.

I closed your account? =)) That's a news

We are both online at the same time..my name is winnerchickendinner on the site you can go ahead and deactivate that too now. Won't be needing it.

How are we the same person?

Ha, so you both are same person, I see =)

Your just a dick plain and simple. I see people complain here all the time. I have been interested from this site from day one. It had potential but the way you run it, it should be down in no time.

2NaturalOrder8, I have different opinion. Since you did not ask me anything (sometimes you see users terrorize services to get something back - money or free service or something else), you own or affiliated with other poker rooms. Only this way can be explained why you are trolling here.

After multiple complaints, the connection still sucks. I have to hit the button multiple times and the button still doesn't work.. if the button is there, half the time it isn't. And for the site owner to be using bots?? That's the nail on the coffin for me..I'm done with this site.

I don't get it..so how is the site owner the bad guy..who is using the bots?

Here is log of "polite" asking me something:

site was down yesterday for the whole night + a bit in the morning.

startheory player is not a bot 100%.

We're not chasing bots, we're chasing multi-accounters. Bots also aren't thwarted in any way by the things you describe. The protocol is open, the whole thing is open, if someone wanted to make a bot they certainly wouldn't have to use our client to do it.