Just as we humans are stuck in our cycle of self consumption and destruction.
Topic: The problem with atheism. - page 12. (Read 38470 times)
Just as we humans are stuck in our cycle of self consumption and destruction.
There is meaning in everything, you just have to see it or create it. Hell, there's meaning in my avatar of a guy eating himself, I didn't know this at the time of choosing but have since learned about the concept of Ouroboros, look up what it means.
Your world can be meaningless, limited or godless, but it doesn't make it apply to any other reality other than yourself.
Your world can be meaningless, limited or godless, but it doesn't make it apply to any other reality other than yourself.
Your avatar is a guy eating himself? WTF?
How can life exist without death? It can't. Do not fear the transition, it is not bad.
@dank
Ah it's God himself. I thought you'd be too busy giving AIDS to babies in Africa to post here.
Ah it's God himself. I thought you'd be too busy giving AIDS to babies in Africa to post here.
There is meaning in everything, you just have to see it or create it. Hell, there's meaning in my avatar of a guy eating himself, I didn't know this at the time of choosing but have since learned about the concept of Ouroboros, look up what it means.
Your world can be meaningless, limited or godless, but it doesn't make it apply to any other reality other than yourself.
Your world can be meaningless, limited or godless, but it doesn't make it apply to any other reality other than yourself.
Under this view, there is no such thing as objective morality, and thus no objective good and bad. It's all about opinions and that's all it ever could be about. The fact that you're "wired" to avoid pain doesn't imply it's good to do so.
The fact that atheists still, on the whole, want good things to happen to themselves and to other people is an often-overlooked leap of faith.
The fact that atheists still, on the whole, want good things to happen to themselves and to other people is an often-overlooked leap of faith.
I'm not sure how that follows. Atheists are writed to to avoid pain and stimulate pleasure centers, those things are directly influenced by their actions, which just happen to correlate with "good" and "bad"" (or, more correctly, opinions of what's good and what's bad are based on those stimulations), and thus atheists want good things to happen, simply because the are wired like that. Why does faith have to enter into this?
I'm saying it's a leap of faith if you believe the Universe is inherently meaningless. Saying it's meaningless but then giving your own desires and sufferings any significance is just a non-sequitur. There can be no logical justification for anything in a meaningless Universe. If you assert that set x is meaningless and set x contains set y, set y is therefore also meaningless. You should have no business talking about what's good or bad for you in a meaningless Universe.
Saying you 'just happen' to be wired a certain way is like saying it 'just happens' that everything in the Universe adheres to mathematical laws...as if it were some kind of fluke. Given that mathematical laws are meaningful, it's self-evidently the opposite.
Many things have been done in the name of Christianity that are not "Christian." Just because someone says that they are does not mean that they are.
In the case of Columbus, the whole world said that they are, because the whole world believed as he did. As you saying that even if everyone thought they were Christian at some point in the past, they could still be wrong in regards to what it constitutes to be a Christian and to follow god''s teaching? If yes, why do you think the sheppards that wrote the bible scripts were not just as wrong as Columbus and all his christians of that time?
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But on the being honest with God. I agree that He deals with all of us differently. I think sometimes we expect Him to answer in a specific way and if His response is not what we expect we dismiss Him. One of my favorite stories in the Old Testament was about Elijah. He went up to the mountain top and was really upset with God and felt like God had abandoned him. It goes on to say that there was a mighty wind, but God was not in the wind, then there was a giant earthquake but God was not in the earthquake and then there was a fire but God was not in the fire, but then God Whispered. It was a very still and small voice that He spoke with. I think we do not quiet our hearts. We are so busy with the craziness of life that we do not still our souls and listen.
So your answer is B, "you didn't believe, or were sincere enough"
I agree. I think church is wrong in how they handle the topic of sex, especially the Catholic church it seems which almost seems to revere those who are celibate or don't have sex at all (such as priests and nuns.) The Church likes to add things to scripture and that is where alot of the problems come from and hence why it is important to read the Bible for ourselves so we can know what is just traditions and what is really the truth.
But the church uses those same scriptures to defend their position. They don't write anything extra into the margiins. So, how do we, as outsiders, believe you over the word of the church? Or the word of one church over the many other denominations? You see the dillema here? You claim one thing, others claim another. Ask every Christian, Jew, or Muslim, and they will give you a different answer. The easiest conclusion to come to is "none of them actually know the answer."
Of course some churches use scriptures to defend their positions. Why do you think it was such a huge deal when Martin Luther revolted against the Catholic church when he did? He was basically calling out all of the things that the church was doing that was not in the Bible. The church has "traditions" that they act like is part of scripture but they are not.
This is why it is imperative, regardless of a person's denomination to read the Bible for ourselves. Or even to go as far as my husband has done and read it in the Greek (or study the Hebrew for the Old Testament) Then we are able really understand what was written and take off the glasses of our English culture, or whatever denomination we belong to and really understand the truth. It is quite liberating. The only problem is that it causes ruffles in the church whenever we question some of the teachings that go beyond what the Bible actually says.
I just think the cultures in those days was more vicious and warlike. There were tribes of people that were very heartless, like the Vikings lets say, and they were out to kill all other people groups without any concern for them. Perhaps God knew that their hearts were corrupt and allowed for war? That is just one example.
Hey, don't be dissing on Norway and Iceland. When the Viikinds "discovered" America, they didn't really mess with the natives too much, and didn't try to conquer or exploit them. Well, they did once, but got their asses handed to them. When the godly Christian Columbus and his men "discovered" America, they exploited, mutilated, and killed the natives, and ended up turning them into slaves. Hell, Columbus and company were responsible for wiping out something like 95% of the native population in America, thanks to bringing their diseases here. Why would god allow for such an enormous swath of his people to just die out needlessly? (I'm sure some would say it's to clear the land of the godless heathens, so that the good christian folk can settle it, but if some said that, I'd have to slap them)
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Seems to me like the wise thing to do in your case is to have a brutally honest discussion with God. Tell Him directly why you don't think he is fair. Tell Him why you don't think He is real. He can handle it. You might just be surprised how He answers you.
Would you be surprised if someone did that, and told you they got no response? Or would you chuck that up to some excuse like "you didn't believe, or were sincere, enough?"
Many things have been done in the name of Christianity that are not "Christian." Just because someone says that they are does not mean that they are.
But on the being honest with God. I agree that He deals with all of us differently. I think sometimes we expect Him to answer in a specific way and if His response is not what we expect we dismiss Him. One of my favorite stories in the Old Testament was about Elijah. He went up to the mountain top and was really upset with God and felt like God had abandoned him. It goes on to say that there was a mighty wind, but God was not in the wind, then there was a giant earthquake but God was not in the earthquake and then there was a fire but God was not in the fire, but then God Whispered. It was a very still and small voice that He spoke with. I think we do not quiet our hearts. We are so busy with the craziness of life that we do not still our souls and listen.
I agree. I think church is wrong in how they handle the topic of sex, especially the Catholic church it seems which almost seems to revere those who are celibate or don't have sex at all (such as priests and nuns.) The Church likes to add things to scripture and that is where alot of the problems come from and hence why it is important to read the Bible for ourselves so we can know what is just traditions and what is really the truth.
But the church uses those same scriptures to defend their position. They don't write anything extra into the margiins. So, how do we, as outsiders, believe you over the word of the church? Or the word of one church over the many other denominations? You see the dillema here? You claim one thing, others claim another. Ask every Christian, Jew, or Muslim, and they will give you a different answer. The easiest conclusion to come to is "none of them actually know the answer."
I just think the cultures in those days was more vicious and warlike. There were tribes of people that were very heartless, like the Vikings lets say, and they were out to kill all other people groups without any concern for them. Perhaps God knew that their hearts were corrupt and allowed for war? That is just one example.
Hey, don't be dissing on Norway and Iceland. When the Viikinds "discovered" America, they didn't really mess with the natives too much, and didn't try to conquer or exploit them. Well, they did once, but got their asses handed to them. When the godly Christian Columbus and his men "discovered" America, they exploited, mutilated, and killed the natives, and ended up turning them into slaves. Hell, Columbus and company were responsible for wiping out something like 95% of the native population in America, thanks to bringing their diseases here. Why would god allow for such an enormous swath of his people to just die out needlessly? (I'm sure some would say it's to clear the land of the godless heathens, so that the good christian folk can settle it, but if some said that, I'd have to slap them)
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Seems to me like the wise thing to do in your case is to have a brutally honest discussion with God. Tell Him directly why you don't think he is fair. Tell Him why you don't think He is real. He can handle it. You might just be surprised how He answers you.
Would you be surprised if someone did that, and told you they got no response? Or would you chuck that up to some excuse like "you didn't believe, or were sincere, enough?"
even sex was a gift from God.
I thought sex, and the subsequent reproduction and childbirth, was a punishment from god for the original sin? If it was a gift, why would so many churches throughout history be so condemning of it?
I agree. I think church is wrong in how they handle the topic of sex, especially the Catholic church it seems which almost seems to revere those who are celibate or don't have sex at all (such as priests and nuns.) The Church likes to add things to scripture and that is where alot of the problems come from and hence why it is important to read the Bible for ourselves so we can know what is just traditions and what is really the truth.
The pain in childbirth? Now that is a curse! I can tell you that from first hand experience. It is supernatural pain for sure! I was too late to the hospital for an epidural and had to give birth naturally to my youngest and it was pain from my head down to my toes and it was a really weird pain too. Not fun!
That said, sex is a gift God gave us. However, it can be twisted and used for really horrible things too: such as abuse, rape, etc. That is not God's fault though.
even sex was a gift from God.
I thought sex, and the subsequent reproduction and childbirth, was a punishment from god for the original sin? If it was a gift, why would so many churches throughout history be so condemning of it?
The trouble with objective morality: "My church doesn't like this, time to reinterpret God's word and invent a new church." I believe there was a famous king of England who did this...
even sex was a gift from God.
I thought sex, and the subsequent reproduction and childbirth, was a punishment from god for the original sin? If it was a gift, why would so many churches throughout history be so condemning of it?
Under this view, there is no such thing as objective morality, and thus no objective good and bad. It's all about opinions and that's all it ever could be about. The fact that you're "wired" to avoid pain doesn't imply it's good to do so.
The fact that atheists still, on the whole, want good things to happen to themselves and to other people is an often-overlooked leap of faith.
The fact that atheists still, on the whole, want good things to happen to themselves and to other people is an often-overlooked leap of faith.
I'm not sure how that follows. Atheists are writed to to avoid pain and stimulate pleasure centers, those things are directly influenced by their actions, which just happen to correlate with "good" and "bad"" (or, more correctly, opinions of what's good and what's bad are based on those stimulations), and thus atheists want good things to happen, simply because the are wired like that. Why does faith have to enter into this?
@BitChick
The fact that your a Christian is an accident of your birth. If you were born in Tibet you'd be a Buddhist.
The fact that your a Christian is an accident of your birth. If you were born in Tibet you'd be a Buddhist.
What about our actions? God did create a world with unlimited resources but we as humans messed it up and Satan does not get credit for any of the evil? The "murders" were God's judgement and not arbitrary. You may think so, but there was always a reason. There is such a think as "righteous anger." When the cries for justice reach Him from His people being mistreated, abused and so on His heart is moved with compassion and then He acts on it. Hence why there were wars in the Old Testament. He was protecting His people or bringing down judgement on the mistreatment of people. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah the Bible says that “The cries of the victims in Sodom and Gomorrah are deafening; the sin of those cities is immense. I’m going down to see for myself, see if what they’re doing is as bad as it sounds." Basically the cries of the victims cause God to move and to bring judgement down, in this case fire from heaven.
The Bible says that the "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." I think a healthy respect of God is a very wise thing. I fear Him but I know He loves me at the same time. That is why the description of God as our Father is a good comparison. A good father is one to be respected but is also one we can go to that will give us compassion and understanding. I am not sure why you have such a negative opinion of God? I guess we all have things in our life that cause us to question. But I do feel like in regards to the Bible, many people pick and choose things that they want to and get an idea of who God is based on just a few select passages without getting the whole picture.
The Bible says that the "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." I think a healthy respect of God is a very wise thing. I fear Him but I know He loves me at the same time. That is why the description of God as our Father is a good comparison. A good father is one to be respected but is also one we can go to that will give us compassion and understanding. I am not sure why you have such a negative opinion of God? I guess we all have things in our life that cause us to question. But I do feel like in regards to the Bible, many people pick and choose things that they want to and get an idea of who God is based on just a few select passages without getting the whole picture.
Picking and choosing is exactly what Christians do. Pick out the good bits, ignore the bad parts or justify them away.
Fear and respect are not the same thing. You seem to be equating them here. There are people in this world who I have much respect for, but I don't fear them. If someone is trying to strike fear into me, I treat them with the contempt that they deserve. If God was real, he would deserve my contempt because of his actions in this regard.
And father's have to earn respect. Mine doesn't and he doesn't get any from me. But my parents have tried to strike fear into me continually and they are contemptible people. See how that works?
Politicians also try to strike fear into people and they deserve utter contempt likewise.
I guess it is a matter of how you look at "fear" then. I see it as a sincere reverence and humble respect of God and His position, not one in which I think He is going to strike me down just because He feels like it for no apparent reason.
Some Christians do pick and choose what they want to believe, you are right in that. Granted, there are things in the Bible that seem hard to understand. However, when the context is understood then it is easier. I know that when I read the Old Testament, for example, God seems more vengeful. I just think the cultures in those days was more vicious and warlike. There were tribes of people that were very heartless, like the Vikings lets say, and they were out to kill all other people groups without any concern for them. Perhaps God knew that their hearts were corrupt and allowed for war? That is just one example.
Seems to me like the wise thing to do in your case is to have a brutally honest discussion with God. Tell Him directly why you don't think he is fair. Tell Him why you don't think He is real. He can handle it. You might just be surprised how He answers you.
I was really upset with God several times in my life and that is what I did and His response surprised me. Instead of responding in anger, which I expected, He responded in love and compassion. I think what He wants more than anything is for us to come to Him in all honesty and just to let Him know our frustrations and true feelings. It is not like He doesn't know how we feel anyways, but He is then able to meet us right where we are at.
Just my thoughts on all this.
What about our actions? God did create a world with unlimited resources but we as humans messed it up and Satan does not get credit for any of the evil? The "murders" were God's judgement and not arbitrary. You may think so, but there was always a reason. There is such a think as "righteous anger." When the cries for justice reach Him from His people being mistreated, abused and so on His heart is moved with compassion and then He acts on it. Hence why there were wars in the Old Testament. He was protecting His people or bringing down judgement on the mistreatment of people. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah the Bible says that “The cries of the victims in Sodom and Gomorrah are deafening; the sin of those cities is immense. I’m going down to see for myself, see if what they’re doing is as bad as it sounds." Basically the cries of the victims cause God to move and to bring judgement down, in this case fire from heaven.
The Bible says that the "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." I think a healthy respect of God is a very wise thing. I fear Him but I know He loves me at the same time. That is why the description of God as our Father is a good comparison. A good father is one to be respected but is also one we can go to that will give us compassion and understanding. I am not sure why you have such a negative opinion of God? I guess we all have things in our life that cause us to question. But I do feel like in regards to the Bible, many people pick and choose things that they want to and get an idea of who God is based on just a few select passages without getting the whole picture.
The Bible says that the "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." I think a healthy respect of God is a very wise thing. I fear Him but I know He loves me at the same time. That is why the description of God as our Father is a good comparison. A good father is one to be respected but is also one we can go to that will give us compassion and understanding. I am not sure why you have such a negative opinion of God? I guess we all have things in our life that cause us to question. But I do feel like in regards to the Bible, many people pick and choose things that they want to and get an idea of who God is based on just a few select passages without getting the whole picture.
Picking and choosing is exactly what Christians do. Pick out the good bits, ignore the bad parts or justify them away.
Fear and respect are not the same thing. You seem to be equating them here. There are people in this world who I have much respect for, but I don't fear them. If someone is trying to strike fear into me, I treat them with the contempt that they deserve. If God was real, he would deserve my contempt because of his actions in this regard.
And father's have to earn respect. Mine doesn't and he doesn't get any from me. But my parents have tried to strike fear into me continually and they are contemptible people. See how that works?
Politicians also try to strike fear into people and they deserve utter contempt likewise.
So children today do not suffer for the mistakes of the parents? I am sure the same thing happened then. Were the kids cast directly into hell for that? I don't necessarily believe that. All of us are judged according to what we do though.
Many people today have turned their backs on God. You can think of Him however you like but I believe He is good, loving, forgiving and cares deeply for all of us. But at the same time He is God and is to be feared and revered. There will come a day when He decided to remove His hand and allow the world to suffer again, just like He did with Noah. If you read the Biblical account the few that feared Him were saved. It seems wise to be on His side.
You can believe what you like about God. Your own evidence, the bible, proves otherwise. I say, thank God that God doesn't exist. Pun intended. For someone that petty, arbitrary and evil to exist and be all powerful would truly be a scary situation for humanity to be in.
You think that he is petty, arbitrary and evil?
You say the Bible proves otherwise? Here is just a few things that the Bible says about Him to me:
He created this beautiful world for us to live in.
He created man and woman so that we could have relationships, even sex was a gift from God.
He cared deeply for His people. He parted the red sea to help his people escape from slavery from the Egyptians and led the Israelites to the promise land he said He would give them.
He came as a child so He could understand us and feel the same feeling we feel as humans.
He was beaten, rejected, scorned and made fun of just to understand us. (He is still rejected)
He died a horrific death on the cross for our sins, out of great love for us.
He promised to prepare a place for those that accept Him with no more pain, sorrow or suffering.
He gives His Spirit to those that ask Him and His Spirit brings love, joy, peace,patience, gentleness, kindness and self-control
He takes hate from our hearts and puts love and forgiveness there instead.
And last, He will ultimately give Satan his due reward for all the pain and torment he has caused us on this earth.
Do you disregard these things He has done? Is that really fair to Him? He has given us far more than we deserve!
Even Hitler and Stalin did some good things in their lives. They also said good things but didn't live up to them.
Words are meaningless in the final analysis. Actions are what counts. And God's behaviour speaks for itself regards of what he says.
He knows the creating a world with limited resources will ensure that conflicts ensue. This is well known. And when bad things ensue from the decision that he made he then blames us for it. The all-powerful God that could have given us a world of abundance. That's why he's petty. All the murders he's committed is why he's evil. And anyone who is attempting to make you fear them? Why would a good person want to make others fear them?
What about our actions? God did create a world with unlimited resources but we as humans messed it up and Satan does not get credit for any of the evil? The "murders" were God's judgement and not arbitrary. You may think so, but there was always a reason. There is such a think as "righteous anger." When the cries for justice reach Him from His people being mistreated, abused and so on His heart is moved with compassion and then He acts on it. Hence why there were wars in the Old Testament. He was protecting His people or bringing down judgement on the mistreatment of people. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah the Bible says that “The cries of the victims in Sodom and Gomorrah are deafening; the sin of those cities is immense. I’m going down to see for myself, see if what they’re doing is as bad as it sounds." Basically the cries of the victims cause God to move and to bring judgement down, in this case fire from heaven.
The Bible says that the "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." I think a healthy respect of God is a very wise thing. I fear Him but I know He loves me at the same time. That is why the description of God as our Father is a good comparison. A good father is one to be respected but is also one we can go to that will give us compassion and understanding. I am not sure why you have such a negative opinion of God? I guess we all have things in our life that cause us to question. But I do feel like in regards to the Bible, many people pick and choose things that they want to and get an idea of who God is based on just a few select passages without getting the whole picture.
So children today do not suffer for the mistakes of the parents? I am sure the same thing happened then. Were the kids cast directly into hell for that? I don't necessarily believe that. All of us are judged according to what we do though.
Many people today have turned their backs on God. You can think of Him however you like but I believe He is good, loving, forgiving and cares deeply for all of us. But at the same time He is God and is to be feared and revered. There will come a day when He decided to remove His hand and allow the world to suffer again, just like He did with Noah. If you read the Biblical account the few that feared Him were saved. It seems wise to be on His side.
You can believe what you like about God. Your own evidence, the bible, proves otherwise. I say, thank God that God doesn't exist. Pun intended. For someone that petty, arbitrary and evil to exist and be all powerful would truly be a scary situation for humanity to be in.
You think that he is petty, arbitrary and evil?
You say the Bible proves otherwise? Here is just a few things that the Bible says about Him to me:
He created this beautiful world for us to live in.
He created man and woman so that we could have relationships, even sex was a gift from God.
He cared deeply for His people. He parted the red sea to help his people escape from slavery from the Egyptians and led the Israelites to the promise land he said He would give them.
He came as a child so He could understand us and feel the same feeling we feel as humans.
He was beaten, rejected, scorned and made fun of just to understand us. (He is still rejected)
He died a horrific death on the cross for our sins, out of great love for us.
He promised to prepare a place for those that accept Him with no more pain, sorrow or suffering.
He gives His Spirit to those that ask Him and His Spirit brings love, joy, peace,patience, gentleness, kindness and self-control
He takes hate from our hearts and puts love and forgiveness there instead.
And last, He will ultimately give Satan his due reward for all the pain and torment he has caused us on this earth.
Do you disregard these things He has done? Is that really fair to Him? He has given us far more than we deserve!
Even Hitler and Stalin did some good things in their lives. They also said good things but didn't live up to them.
Words are meaningless in the final analysis. Actions are what counts. And God's behaviour speaks for itself regards of what he says.
He knows the creating a world with limited resources will ensure that conflicts ensue. This is well known. And when bad things ensue from the decision that he made he then blames us for it. The all-powerful God that could have given us a world of abundance. That's why he's petty. All the murders he's committed is why he's evil. And anyone who is attempting to make you fear them? Why would a good person want to make others fear them?
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