Topic: [(Updated 4/2)USA/CANADA GROUP BUY] Denarium Silver 1 BTC Coins - page 5. (Read 8271 times)
January 14, 2016, 02:11:02 PM
Aaah, I was thinking about border related charges. Import costs and all that. This explains a lot, hahaha.
January 14, 2016, 02:06:03 PM
Okay, so it sounds like the VAT is on the shipping costs only, not the coin value? If that's the case, then definitely sounds like a better deal to stick with the plan of shipping to Mitchell.
Yes, indeed.
January 14, 2016, 01:28:34 PM
That is not accurate. I don't understand why there is so much confusion but I'm going to take a shot at explaining this one more time.
There is no VAT on the value of the coins themselves in any scenario whatsoever. However keep in mind that this is only in the case of the auction / group buy, normally VAT would affect things differently. In this case any VAT related to the coins we have already included in the sales prices of the auction (which means that we take any hit from the VAT in relation to the coin sales prices).
I have now confirmed there will be VAT on any EU ***SHIPPING COSTS*** and no VAT on any outside EU ***SHIPPING COSTS***.
The effect of the VAT on ***SHIPPING COSTS*** will be insignificant. We are talking 0,5 € per shipping participant *at most*. And if you reroute through somewhere else, it will very likely cost more overall because we have a good courier option to Mitchell's country.
Hopefully this is now clear.
There is no VAT on the value of the coins themselves in any scenario whatsoever. However keep in mind that this is only in the case of the auction / group buy, normally VAT would affect things differently. In this case any VAT related to the coins we have already included in the sales prices of the auction (which means that we take any hit from the VAT in relation to the coin sales prices).
I have now confirmed there will be VAT on any EU ***SHIPPING COSTS*** and no VAT on any outside EU ***SHIPPING COSTS***.
The effect of the VAT on ***SHIPPING COSTS*** will be insignificant. We are talking 0,5 € per shipping participant *at most*. And if you reroute through somewhere else, it will very likely cost more overall because we have a good courier option to Mitchell's country.
Hopefully this is now clear.
Okay, so it sounds like the VAT is on the shipping costs only, not the coin value? If that's the case, then definitely sounds like a better deal to stick with the plan of shipping to Mitchell.
January 14, 2016, 08:31:35 AM
Thanks for the explanation Technomage.
Edit:To confirm, everyone who ordered coins after the auction from the main website should expect to pay EU sales tax if items are shipped to an EU address. Please correct me if I am wrong. If this is correct, I may place an order directly for E series brass and silver coins instead and have them shipped directly to the USA to avoid additional costs.
If someone orders several L series non-silver coins, will they have to pay the same shipping cost per coin as the 1oz silver even though they weight about 1/4 oz.?
I appreciate the time and effort that ezeminer and Mitchełł have put into organizing this groupbuy. Because of the sales tax requirements for brass coins sold within the EU, I went ahead and placed an order of E series (silver and brass) coins to be shipped directly to the USA.
Edit:
If someone orders several L series non-silver coins, will they have to pay the same shipping cost per coin as the 1oz silver even though they weight about 1/4 oz.?
I appreciate the time and effort that ezeminer and Mitchełł have put into organizing this groupbuy. Because of the sales tax requirements for brass coins sold within the EU, I went ahead and placed an order of E series (silver and brass) coins to be shipped directly to the USA.
January 14, 2016, 06:38:17 AM
For shipping costs overall there are other things that matter more than the VAT issue, in terms of overall price. Our courier options vary country to country and the effect of VAT simply isn't enough to overrule those differences.
Don't confuse the value of the coins themselves with shipping costs. Those two things are not related at all (well, except that for security reasons we need to pay for more robust shipping method if the value is high).
But essentially the value of the coins can be 1 billion for example, and I've confirmed there is no VAT issue there. The shipping might be 30 EUR or something like that, and it may have VAT (so 24% on top of the 30 EUR shipping cost). The effect on a single group shipping participant is small. On the other hand shipping to outside Europe might cost us 100 EUR or something like that which would likely increase the overall price to higher levels.
Don't confuse the value of the coins themselves with shipping costs. Those two things are not related at all (well, except that for security reasons we need to pay for more robust shipping method if the value is high).
But essentially the value of the coins can be 1 billion for example, and I've confirmed there is no VAT issue there. The shipping might be 30 EUR or something like that, and it may have VAT (so 24% on top of the 30 EUR shipping cost). The effect on a single group shipping participant is small. On the other hand shipping to outside Europe might cost us 100 EUR or something like that which would likely increase the overall price to higher levels.
January 14, 2016, 06:35:28 AM
That is not accurate. I don't understand why there is so much confusion but I'm going to take a shot at explaining this one more time.
There is no VAT on the value of the coins themselves in any scenario whatsoever. However keep in mind that this is only in the case of the auction / group buy, normally VAT would affect things differently. In this case any VAT related to the coins we have already included in the sales prices of the auction (which means that we take any hit from the VAT in relation to the coin sales prices).
I have now confirmed there will be VAT on any EU ***SHIPPING COSTS*** and no VAT on any outside EU ***SHIPPING COSTS***.
The effect of the VAT on ***SHIPPING COSTS*** will be insignificant. We are talking 0,5 € per shipping participant *at most*. And if you reroute through somewhere else, it will very likely cost more overall because we have a good courier option to Mitchell's country.
Hopefully this is now clear.
There is no VAT on the value of the coins themselves in any scenario whatsoever. However keep in mind that this is only in the case of the auction / group buy, normally VAT would affect things differently. In this case any VAT related to the coins we have already included in the sales prices of the auction (which means that we take any hit from the VAT in relation to the coin sales prices).
I have now confirmed there will be VAT on any EU ***SHIPPING COSTS*** and no VAT on any outside EU ***SHIPPING COSTS***.
The effect of the VAT on ***SHIPPING COSTS*** will be insignificant. We are talking 0,5 € per shipping participant *at most*. And if you reroute through somewhere else, it will very likely cost more overall because we have a good courier option to Mitchell's country.
Hopefully this is now clear.
January 14, 2016, 06:09:21 AM
Hm, so if there is no VAT going to the US, wouldn't it make sense to do a US group buy and an EU group buy separately? This seems like it would benefit the US participants in this group buy, myself included, if shipped straight to the US, while not changing much regarding the EU participants (who will get hit with VAT no matter what).
I know the shipping is more expensive to the US, but a 24% VAT if shipped to the EU would tack on about 24 EUR to each coin. For one coin they wanted nearly 50 EUR just for shipping to the US, IIRC, but if 10 or 15 coins were shipped, they'd be sending it all in one package, and I wouldn't imagine it would cost more than 80 EUR (I don't know this, we'd have to find that out). If that's the case, then 10 coins (as an example) shipped to the US would be around 8 EUR each, plus the domestic shipping from the "trusted 3rd party."
If they were to ship to an EU middle-man, every US buyer would get hit with 24 EUR VAT plus international shipping.
I know the shipping is more expensive to the US, but a 24% VAT if shipped to the EU would tack on about 24 EUR to each coin. For one coin they wanted nearly 50 EUR just for shipping to the US, IIRC, but if 10 or 15 coins were shipped, they'd be sending it all in one package, and I wouldn't imagine it would cost more than 80 EUR (I don't know this, we'd have to find that out). If that's the case, then 10 coins (as an example) shipped to the US would be around 8 EUR each, plus the domestic shipping from the "trusted 3rd party."
If they were to ship to an EU middle-man, every US buyer would get hit with 24 EUR VAT plus international shipping.
If this is accurate, I would agree. I have no interest in paying VAT if I don't have to in the US. I didn't order loaded coins either which require a EU 3rd party.
January 13, 2016, 11:38:50 PM
Hm, so if there is no VAT going to the US, wouldn't it make sense to do a US group buy and an EU group buy separately? This seems like it would benefit the US participants in this group buy, myself included, if shipped straight to the US, while not changing much regarding the EU participants (who will get hit with VAT no matter what).
I know the shipping is more expensive to the US, but a 24% VAT if shipped to the EU would tack on about 24 EUR to each coin. For one coin they wanted nearly 50 EUR just for shipping to the US, IIRC, but if 10 or 15 coins were shipped, they'd be sending it all in one package, and I wouldn't imagine it would cost more than 80 EUR (I don't know this, we'd have to find that out). If that's the case, then 10 coins (as an example) shipped to the US would be around 8 EUR each, plus the domestic shipping from the "trusted 3rd party."
If they were to ship to an EU middle-man, every US buyer would get hit with 24 EUR VAT plus international shipping.
I know the shipping is more expensive to the US, but a 24% VAT if shipped to the EU would tack on about 24 EUR to each coin. For one coin they wanted nearly 50 EUR just for shipping to the US, IIRC, but if 10 or 15 coins were shipped, they'd be sending it all in one package, and I wouldn't imagine it would cost more than 80 EUR (I don't know this, we'd have to find that out). If that's the case, then 10 coins (as an example) shipped to the US would be around 8 EUR each, plus the domestic shipping from the "trusted 3rd party."
If they were to ship to an EU middle-man, every US buyer would get hit with 24 EUR VAT plus international shipping.
January 13, 2016, 07:56:42 PM
Alright got mine ordered and paid for!
January 13, 2016, 07:02:52 PM
I'd just like to add that for us to safely ship that amount of coins with that amount of value, shipping to Mitchell's country has some of the better courier options. If we ship the package somewhere else the overall price of the shipping will be much higher.
So my view on this is that VAT or no VAT, it will be cheapest for you to ship through Mitchell, as the courier option we have for Mitchell's country is otherwise a pretty good value option. And our courier options vary quite a bit country to country even inside EU and of course outside. One of the reasons is that silver is a prohibited product generally speaking and can't even be insured at all when shipped to certain countries (depends again on which courier but then there can be massive price differences).
So I'd recommend not changing the middle man as it's likely the overall price will be more, not less.
So my view on this is that VAT or no VAT, it will be cheapest for you to ship through Mitchell, as the courier option we have for Mitchell's country is otherwise a pretty good value option. And our courier options vary quite a bit country to country even inside EU and of course outside. One of the reasons is that silver is a prohibited product generally speaking and can't even be insured at all when shipped to certain countries (depends again on which courier but then there can be massive price differences).
So I'd recommend not changing the middle man as it's likely the overall price will be more, not less.
January 13, 2016, 06:58:46 PM
I have to double check if we have VAT on outside EU shipping. I'll get back to you guys on that tomorrow. But there is VAT on the shipping inside EU for sure. And the percentage is 24%, it is the Finnish VAT. It doesn't matter what VAT rate the destination country has. It is much simpler that way by the way.
For sales of digital goods there is a new law which says VAT must be paid based on the destination country. That is a complicated mess which has ruined many businesses. Doesn't affect bitcoins though as they are VAT free.
For sales of digital goods there is a new law which says VAT must be paid based on the destination country. That is a complicated mess which has ruined many businesses. Doesn't affect bitcoins though as they are VAT free.
January 13, 2016, 05:58:27 PM
VAT lolplz...
January 13, 2016, 04:54:48 PM
If you guys can find a cheaper way to get your coins, go for it! I don't mind.
January 13, 2016, 03:35:27 PM
VAT would be 21% over here, by the way, and I have no idea how the fuck that shit works anymore. Thought I understood it, but apparently I don't.
January 13, 2016, 03:25:54 PM
Could you enlighten me why that might happen? As far as I know, you don't get charged VAT on Silver within EU borders. That would destroy the whole purpose of the EU itself.
The pure silver value itself doesn't have VAT, that's true, and technically we could separate the silver value in our products as VAT free and only have it on the non-silver value of our coin product, to save on VAT costs. Currently we don't do that and thus the physical part of our coin does include VAT for EU sales.
Basically everything except silver and bitcoin value and some other exceptions have VAT and especially when sold to someone in the EU. If we sell to outside of the EU, then it doesn't have VAT on anything. Silver is a big exception just like bitcoins. But for example any gold sale between EU countries will have VAT.
But with my post I was referring to the shipping / courier cost itself, not the products in the package. The shipping cost can have VAT regardless of the products inside.
If you don't count the silver to VAT you still get taxed for the Bitcoin value?
But if you ship directly to me we don't get VAT?
Man VAT really isn't nice.
January 13, 2016, 02:44:25 PM
Could you enlighten me why that might happen? As far as I know, you don't get charged VAT on Silver within EU borders. That would destroy the whole purpose of the EU itself.
The pure silver value itself doesn't have VAT, that's true, and technically we could separate the silver value in our products as VAT free and only have it on the non-silver value of our coin product, to save on VAT costs. Currently we don't do that and thus the physical part of our coin does include VAT for EU sales.
Basically everything except silver and bitcoin value and some other exceptions have VAT and especially when sold to someone in the EU. If we sell to outside of the EU, then it doesn't have VAT on anything. Silver is a big exception just like bitcoins. But for example any gold sale between EU countries will have VAT.
But with my post I was referring to the shipping / courier cost itself, not the products in the package. The shipping cost can have VAT regardless of the products inside.
January 13, 2016, 02:04:56 PM
Quote
Although the shipping cost will likely include VAT if you're routing the group shipping through the EU but that won't be a significant cost issue.
Could you enlighten me why that might happen? As far as I know, you don't get charged VAT on Silver within EU borders. That would destroy the whole purpose of the EU itself. January 13, 2016, 01:26:24 PM
So according to the website 1.2528BTC + whatever shipping ends up?
Pretty much. I was going to pay the shipping costs, then pass the cost down to everyone including myself.Just don't forget to message Technomage about the group buy at checkout.
January 13, 2016, 01:19:51 PM
So according to the website 1.2528BTC + whatever shipping ends up?
January 13, 2016, 01:14:31 PM
Interested in a loaded bull coin, but have some concerns...
I am concerned about quality after seeing Mitchells coin and hearing they knew coins were bad quality but sold anyways. I assume I have the option of a refund if the quality is not good? Why is it a pre-order for a small run of coins? I assume we will see high-quality pictures before the coins ship?
If so I will take 1 x Loaded Bull coin
I am concerned about quality after seeing Mitchells coin and hearing they knew coins were bad quality but sold anyways. I assume I have the option of a refund if the quality is not good? Why is it a pre-order for a small run of coins? I assume we will see high-quality pictures before the coins ship?
If so I will take 1 x Loaded Bull coin
Yes, Denarium stated during the auction that one will get a refund if you are not satified with coin quality.
In Addition the silver coins will have a better quality because of additional mechanical tooling steps.
Alright, then that sounds good to me. ezminer...let me know what my cost would be for a coin shipped to me then.
I'll message them for a quote. I can't give you an exact amount yet, although I have looked around here for price quotes. This link will download a pdf from the postnl site: http://www.postnl.com/mail/international-mail-delivery/bulk-mail/
http://www.postnl.com/Images/rates-sheetlet_tcm19-23153.pdf
It also says rates are exempt from VAT.
But we would also have to see about calling this a gift at under $100 based on their link here:
http://www.postnl.com/mail/mail-delivery-netherlands/international-mailing-restrictions-limitations/?country=us
If we estimate say 20 1oz coins. This comes to 15.18 euros or roughly $16.50 from Mitchell to I. 25 Euros ($27.13) from Denarium to Mitchell.
Comes to roughly $2.20 per coin.
Add $6 for regular priority mail in the US. Or you can do a bubble envelope for like $3 without tracking.
Say you order 1 Silver Bull. Comes to about $8.18 priority, $5.18 without priority.
That's about as close as I can get for an estimate at this time.
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