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Topic: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors. - page 8. (Read 92654 times)

vip
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
13
One question which I believe needs addressing is what people believe usagi needs to do to fix things.

I think that usagi will probably reject proposed remedies because he doesn't believe he's done anything wrong in the first place, but it would be helpful to get a clear picture of what people actually want usagi to do to address their grievances.

Also, does anyone have a rough idea of the total amount of funds people are currently waiting to have returned to them by usagi?  Are we talking a few hundred BTC here or tens of thousands of BTC?

This is, I believe, an important idea.

I feel like vampire (and others before him) are simply layering accusation after accusation. I feel it will take months if not years to properly respond, however BCB states he doesn't read my posts so I fear there is in fact no way for me to respond to his allegations.

I fear three things will occur:

1. That the accusations alone (without evidence) will cause people to avoid me. This has already happened, demonstrably, and I have lost money from it, demonstrably.
2. That I be given a scammer tag "because usagi". Example; BCB has posted that I have misappropriated company funds but not linked any evidence to support that statement. I'm not sure where he's going with that one (or six of the other dozen+ he's accused me of).
3. That I be labeled a scammer for something inadvertent but I ended up deserving, with no way to make amends.

The rough estimate of what my companies owe is the assets we held. These are being discussed in the post 'final claims process' on the securities forum.

Now here's my idea of what can/should be done.
1. In the case where I'm found guilty of something which requires a scammer tag, we need to put a bitcoin value on it. That is the primary complaint, right?
2. I then propose I pay this amount back to shareholders. I will agree to what the shareholders want. Also, I will not vote in any such motion with company shares or management shares. I reserve the right to vote with personal shares as is my right as a paying shareholder. Conflict of interest? No, I paid for my personal shares.

For example. Let's say I was found guilty of the bmf/cpa contract thing. (Please note I can prove I paid 100 BTC of personal money to BMF, that I returned 100 or 200 shares to BMF from CPA, and that I donated the output of a BFL single to BMF -- so I am not admitting anything till I get a chance to fully respond later). In that case I would propose a fine of 100 BTC to be paid directly to BMF shareholders. That is honest and realistic. I would propose that it be put to shareholder vote.

If that is not acceptable, provided I have a guarantee that I will be treated fairly, I will agree that such a case could be decided by the community (example: BCB). Since BCB has agreed to be a central clearing house for all complaints against me, if BCB states he will drop the charge I will agree to pay the shareholders the 100 BTC (for example). 100 btc in this case, because that is the amount stated in the contract.

Please note -- this would be a personal payment and would not, in this case, affect CPA. For example.

Another way this could be resolved, is if I offer to cancel some or all of my personal holdings in my companies --  thus increasing the value of the remaining company shares. As long as the penalty would be handled fairly and equitablty I would agree to it. I.E. no "dump it all" crap. I put a lot of personal money into this and I lost almost all of it trying to "sweeten the deal" by (example) gifting 100 BTC to BMF investors in motion 80, or donating 4,000 of my personal shares to NYAN.B to put a smile on .C shareholder's faces. I feel that should be taken into account by a fair arbiter.

What do you think of an idea like that, repentance? In return... I want peace. That's it. I want peace from these accusations, forever.

Actually I will be honest with you about something. At this point, looking down the new year 2013, and realizing I will have to spend the next six months of my life fighting BCB, I am actually willing to agree to something like this right now. When I said I was sick earlier I meant it. I have some very important things to take care of in my life this year, like my kids growing up, that I don't want to miss. When I worked on BMF, NYAN, and CPA I threw my whole heart into it and I spent 10 hours a day or more on the computer trading and talking to asset issuers. I actually don't want to go back to that place even if it's reasonably successful. I just want the accusations to stop and to get on with my life. So actually if BCB is open to something like this maybe we can start moving in that direction.

Let's be honest. There are dozens of accusations. What will probably happen is many will be found without merit (i.e. kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1) and some will end up at the very least unprovable. Given how I've been dogged seeking a resolution in that manner is probably better than wasting my life responding to allegations no one can prove but everyone believes anyways. So that's my idea.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
One question which I believe needs addressing is what people believe usagi needs to do to fix things.

I think that usagi will probably reject proposed remedies because he doesn't believe he's done anything wrong in the first place, but it would be helpful to get a clear picture of what people actually want usagi to do to address their grievances.

Also, does anyone have a rough idea of the total amount of funds people are currently waiting to have returned to them by usagi?  Are we talking a few hundred BTC here or tens of thousands of BTC?
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
[snip]
It's 2:44am in Japan now. All the NYAN and BMF spreadsheets were shown with last update times in JST. I've mentioned dozens of times I live in asia.
[/snip]

usagi,  you state the time in Japan.  Then you say that you live in Asia.

Could you please confirm that you are currently locate in Japan, please.

Thank you.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
The relationship between parties can make a difference in determining whether a statement is fraudulent. A misleading statement is more likely to be fraudulent when one party has superior knowledge in a transaction, and knows that the other is relying on that knowledge, than when the two parties possess equal knowledge. For example, if the seller of a car with a bad engine tells the buyer the car is in excellent running condition, a court is more likely to find fraud if the seller is an auto mechanic as opposed to a sales trainee. Misleading statements are most likely to be fraudulent where one party exploits a position of trust and confidence, or a fiduciary relationship. Fiduciary relationships include those between attorneys and clients, physicians and patients, stockbrokers and clients, and the officers and partners of a corporation and its stockholders.

Directly from: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud

Also he's guilty of http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/extrinsic%20fraud

By destroying the evidence, he's guilty of extrinsic fraud.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
Interesting but deleting 100's of posts, (potential evidence for or against), is pretty damning in of itself. Also, all the thread and post spamming, name calling, bad attitude and general bully tactics does not speak well either. Massive thread and post spamming of duplicate and triplicate information over and over is a red flag as well, makes one not want to read anything. TLDR syndrome.
There are quite a few that despise Usagi and want him purged no matter what. From what I have read, it seems to be self inflicted.
So, who has the final say in these matters?

Only theymos the site administrator can apply a scammer tag.
KWH
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1045
In Collateral I Trust.
Interesting but deleting 100's of posts, (potential evidence for or against), is pretty damning in of itself. Also, all the thread and post spamming, name calling, bad attitude and general bully tactics does not speak well either. Massive thread and post spamming of duplicate and triplicate information over and over is a red flag as well, makes one not want to read anything. TLDR syndrome.
There are quite a few that despise Usagi and want him purged no matter what. From what I have read, it seems to be self inflicted.
So, who has the final say in these matters?
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
The events in discussion:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1225553

Well I was preparing some documentation, and I didn't have enough time to prepare.. But since puppet posted, I'll release my accusation of usagi's lies:

Exhibit
The spreadsheet uses a formula which uses the average of the 24h and 5 day averages* Not a scam.
*=max(fetchTicker(concatenate(A13), "t5davg"), fetchTicker(concatenate(A13), "t24havg"))/100000000

The above formula isn't average, it returns the largest of two averages.

http://kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1/

Usgai deleted the agreements and all statements.
Vampire claims to  prove that the financial statements are fraudulent.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1228703

This is evidence of a "Cover Up"

BCB claimed that the event 4 is 'evidence of a' "cover up" of 'agreements' and 'statements'.

The evidence provided in the event 1 is one of the alleged statements. This is a priori from the fact that Vampire claimed that Usagi was advertising a false formula to defraud potential investors:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1367800

For fraud check the statement #1 which you avoided. AVG and MAX are two different functions. That's fraud.

However, Vampire's claim was never proven to be true. Usagi did not change the planned formula after the supposedly false statement. So whatever posts Usagi deleted, it was not evidence of fraud, but statements which users used to falsely accuse Usagi.



Conclusion

The evidence shows that Usagi committed a mistake when he proposed the NAV formula. Then Puppet attempted to use the mistake to accuse Usagi of falsifying the NAV results to defraud investors. After realizing his mistake, Usagi did not persiste in the error and edited the spreadsheet to demonstrate his honest intentions. Later along came Vampire with another false accusation, claiming that Usagi was intentionally defrauding the potential investors to believing the NAV formula was showing "average", not "max of two averages". After this, Usagi deleted all his posts. However, Puppet and Vampire did not prove what would be the correct formula. They also did not determine how Usagi intentionally defrauded the investors.

Therefore Usagi did not defraud any potential investor with his formula.

Hence, the events prove that Puppet and Vampire were casting aspersions on Usagi.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
usagi

I don't read your posts.  They make no sense.  You repeat things you said before.  You post links to links to links all in an effort to obfuscate.

I don't believe you, I don't trust you and you have zero credibility with me and many in this community.

If you post facts, statements made, payments received and payments made then maybe we could come to some resolution.  Math does not lie.

However you do not.  It has been show time and time again that you are dishonest and duplicitous.  If that is how you choose to run you businesses that is you choice.  I, for one would prefer you not run this type of business in the bitcoin community.

Look at the thread of a business like Tangible Cryptology, probably one of the most trusted and respected business in the community. There are always some complaints but there is also post after post of satisfied customers.  Then look at any one of your threads.  They are train wreck.  You are accused again and and again in thread after thread. 

Then you supply a list anonymous list of "Satisified User" quotes.  NOBODY believes you. 

Why would you detractors make these complaints up??  Yes there are HUGE personality conflicts in this community all the time.  And it is easy to see where pissed off people make complaints.  Look at any of the Mt Gox threads.  Look at the some of the  Bitinstant threads.  However in these threads the owners do not attack their customers, (unless it is phantomcircuit of Intersango - another clusterfuck) they explain the situation causing any problem and resolve the disputes and these business continue.

It is clear from the many complaints in your many threads and you responses to complaints in your threads that you are incompetent, dishonest, duplicitous and I believe committing fraudulent activity and that you should be tagged a SCAMMER.

If anyone in the community would like to support you or  feels that I am being unfair to you please post here or pm me directly.

I have  locked my thread to prevent you incessant sperging which only serves to cloud any issue being debated.   I will post any PM that I receive in your defense.   I will NOT post any of your PM's until you supply me specific facts that refute any of the claims being made.

Also that fact that you deleted over 1000 of your posts and your wordpress site only lend credence to your lack of honesty and credibility. 
vip
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
13
Thank you for that clarification.  See has easy it is to clarify things with facts.  Now if you can just supply facts to refute all of these other accusations you can make this all go away right now.

kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1

Can you, or can't you respond to the evidence I have provided to you since Dec. 30th (with updates yesterday)?

There are now more than a dozen accusations you've made against me in your locked thread, which seems to grow every day. So I'm just dealing with it one step at a time, see?

Let's also put a sunset clause on this if you don't mind. When I respond to one of your claims, and you refuse or are unable to explain your reasoning in light of the evidence I provide within seven days, the complaint should be resolved in my favor. What do you think, is that fair?

One of the ways you can demonstrate you are being fair (read: that you are worth responding to) is if you admit it is actually possible for me to be innocent. Especially before you have heard my response. If you can't do this then you have no value as an arbiter, which is what you propose yourself to be here.

After all, there's no point in us listening to you go on about how I misrepresented how I valued my assets, where your sole evidence is a quote that shows me cutting and pasting the actual formula from the spreadsheet. Can we move on to something a little more substantial now?
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
For the Record usgai is locate in JST so all timestamps have to be calculated with this in mind.

I would also recommend using GMT when comparing times stamps in disputed documentation.

Usgai,

Thank you for that clarification.  See has easy it is to clarify things with facts.  Now if you can just supply facts to refute all of these other accusations you can make this all go away right now.

I look forward to a successful resolution, regardless how this turns out.


Thank you

vip
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
13
Usgai,

You can't even get your current facts straight!  Today is January 1st, 2013.   Where are you located??

I rest my case.

It's 2:44am in Japan now. All the NYAN and BMF spreadsheets were shown with last update times in JST. I've mentioned dozens of times I live in asia. You are merely demonstrating that you are operating from a position of lack of information. Your "I rest my case" is equivalent to "I do not have all the facts, but I state my opinion as fact in order to sound credible". You have become pathetic.

You have shown yourself to be clueless, biased, and a very poor arbiter. As you have agreed to become a central clearing house for complaints against me there is now a very good chance that as of this moment you have received, and posted, all of the factual evidence you have against me - especially as you have issued conclusions regarding me in your locked thread. Therefor I will use what gift you have given me, and move on to the next complaint you have posted evidence for in due course.

Thank you and have a nice day.

p.s. This is an example of what a wonderful service you have been to me:

This financial statement, dated Sep 23, says that he will be automatically pulling data. There is no mentioning anywhere that the data will be massaged and distorted.

And when the prices are 20-50% different than on Mt. gox - that's distorted.

Vampire is constantly spewing new and different accusations against me. The fact that he has not posted any evidence, and that you have not either is tantamount to admission that there is no evidence, and that there is no merit to the accusation. Therefore, why bother responding? Let vampire and you live in your own little world. But the moment you post evidence, I will respond to the claim. Note: Evidence has to exist for it to be posted.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
So you're saying that I did not publish in NYAN shareholder letter 38, dated September 23rd, four days before your complaint, that we were moving to a script-based formula?

http://kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1/2012-38-statement.txt

Quote from: usagi
This week we have made a major shift to using an automatic script to value our portfolios. They are no longer valued by hand but by script. This takes a huge load off of me having to manually check prices and will enable me to make more money trading and less on data entry Smiley

This is your proof that it's ok to use creative formulas?

Because that portion says that you're going to pull the data automatically, nowhere it says that it will use MAX. Again you're twisting your own words.

This is evidence that usagi lied to investors.

This financial statement, dated Sep 23, says that he will be automatically pulling data. There is no mentioning anywhere that the data will be massaged and distorted.

And when the prices are 20-50% different than on Mt. gox - that's distorted.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
It appears you are unable (or more likely, unwilling) to respond to the evidence I have provided. When I get some time I will note on the webpage you and BCB are refusing to respond to the evidence I have provided, and therefore you have admitted, in principle, you cannot continue with that accusation against me.

Looks like one down, fifty six to go.


Wow. LIAR. We can't independently verify your webpage for creating editing. I already proved it that you modified the page with a lot of lies in it.

Yes I can verify it, check the screenshots on the web page. Times and dates are included. Then again, you can't independently verify anything, can you? You can't even independently verify that I made the actual quote because I deleted my posts. I've already given permission for Theymos to undelete whatever he wants so your point is moot. Here's what I've posted on the webpage kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1

Status of Case #1:

I believe I have provided sufficient evidence to show that I did not misrepresent how I valued assets in this case.

Dec 30, 2012: BCB has been notified of this response in PM and on the forums in replies to his posts. I have not received a response from BCB nor has he changed his outlook on this case in his locked thread.

Jan 2, 2013: Vampire has essentially stated he is unwilling and/or unable to respond to the evidence presented on this webpage. As he is unwilling to continue his case against me, I propose the matter closed in my favor until such time as he becomes able to respond to the evidence I have provided. Reference: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1429160


Have a nice day vampire. I'm sorry you hate me, but you lost this round. I'll be moving on to the next accusation in due course.

Please, feel free to explain why you believe I misrepresented how I value assets by cutting and pasting the actual formula from the spreadsheet any time you want.

Usgai,

You can't even get your current facts straight!  Today is January 1st, 2013.  

 Where are you located??

EDIT: this was an inaccurate accusation as usgai is located in JST.

I rest my case.

hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
It appears you are unable (or more likely, unwilling) to respond to the evidence I have provided. When I get some time I will note on the webpage you and BCB are refusing to respond to the evidence I have provided, and therefore you have admitted, in principle, you cannot continue with that accusation against me.

Looks like one down, fifty six to go.


Wow. LIAR. We can't independently verify your webpage for creating editing. I already proved it that you modified the page with a lot of lies in it.

Yes I can verify it, check the screenshots on the web page. Times and dates are included. Then again, you can't independently verify anything, can you? You can't even independently verify that I made the actual quote because I deleted my posts. I've already given permission for Theymos to undelete whatever he wants so your point is moot. Here's what I've posted on the webpage kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1

Status of Case #1:

I believe I have provided sufficient evidence to show that I did not misrepresent how I valued assets in this case.

Dec 30, 2012: BCB has been notified of this response in PM and on the forums in replies to his posts. I have not received a response from BCB nor has he changed his outlook on this case in his locked thread.

Jan 2, 2013: Vampire has essentially stated he is unwilling and/or unable to respond to the evidence presented on this webpage. As he is unwilling to continue his case against me, I propose the matter closed in my favor until such time as he becomes able to respond to the evidence I have provided. Reference: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1429160


Have a nice day vampire. I'm sorry you hate me, but you lost this round. I'll be moving on to the next accusation in due course.

Please, feel free to explain why you believe I misrepresented how I value assets by cutting and pasting the actual formula from the spreadsheet any time you want.

Because you provided no evidence. Your webpages are just LIES. As proven here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1428420

So mods, ban this scam bag from these forums.
vip
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
13
It appears you are unable (or more likely, unwilling) to respond to the evidence I have provided. When I get some time I will note on the webpage you and BCB are refusing to respond to the evidence I have provided, and therefore you have admitted, in principle, you cannot continue with that accusation against me.

Looks like one down, fifty six to go.


Wow. LIAR. We can't independently verify your webpage for creating editing. I already proved it that you modified the page with a lot of lies in it.

Yes I can verify it, check the screenshots on the web page. Times and dates are included. Then again, you can't independently verify anything, can you? You can't even independently verify that I made the actual quote because I deleted my posts. I've already given permission for Theymos to undelete whatever he wants so your point is moot. Here's what I've posted on the webpage kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1

Status of Case #1:

I believe I have provided sufficient evidence to show that I did not misrepresent how I valued assets in this case.

Dec 30, 2012: BCB has been notified of this response in PM and on the forums in replies to his posts. I have not received a response from BCB nor has he changed his outlook on this case in his locked thread.

Jan 2, 2013: Vampire has essentially stated he is unwilling and/or unable to respond to the evidence presented on this webpage. As he is unwilling to continue his case against me, I propose the matter closed in my favor until such time as he becomes able to respond to the evidence I have provided. Reference: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1429160


Have a nice day vampire. I'm sorry you hate me, but you lost this round. I'll be moving on to the next accusation in due course.

Please, feel free to explain why you believe I misrepresented how I value assets by cutting and pasting the actual formula from the spreadsheet any time you want.

Edit:
http://kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1/2012-38-statement.txt

Quote from: usagi
This week we have made a major shift to using an automatic script to value our portfolios. They are no longer valued by hand but by script. This takes a huge load off of me having to manually check prices and will enable me to make more money trading and less on data entry Smiley

This is your proof that it's ok to use creative formulas?

Because that portion says that you're going to pull the data automatically, nowhere it says that it will use MAX. Again you're twisting your own words.

It also doesn't say I was using average. It says nothing. You have to stay focused and remember the charge is that I misrepresented how I valued my assets. The charge we are dealing with is not that I misrepresented my assets, or that I did not disclose how I was valuing my assets.

The reason why the announcement is proof is that it shows I did not misrepresent how I valued my assets. The reason why posting the formula right beside the typo with a footnote is because it shows I did not misrepresent how I valued my assets. The reason why the screenshots showing the formula are proof is because it is clear that was the formula in use. At no time did I ever lead any investor to believe I was using an average formula rather than a max formula. If any investor thought that they would have been quickly corrected because I posted corrections not only to the forum, but directly on the spreadsheet, within hours. Additionally anyone following the discussion would have seen my responses to you correcting your misunderstanding.

Your claim is ridiculous.

And I must say, your continued insistence of this is becoming depraved. You're begging; grasping at straws; and it's obvious.

At no time did I misrepresent how I valued assets. Therefore, this case is closed; I've responded to it. The fact you continue just shows you're biased. I hope you understand that I will never, ever get a scammer tag for this. It's just not logical anymore.

We can move on to the next accusation now unless you can come up with some other evidence that I was misrepresenting how I valued the assets.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Citation required.

All citations must have an independent timestamp that can be verified.

You know I posted this on kongzi.ca/BCB because you said you saved those pages to your hard drive. Additionally, I announced kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1 in the "Response to BCB" locked thread. But for what it's worth, there's your citation. Take your time, it's new years. Relax man, have a beer. It's not so serious. We'll work through it, I'm not going anywhere. Trust me.

You failed to provide the citations. Therefor you're a scammer in my book. I already proved that your webpage is a load of crap.



Not only did you just quote me citing the webpage, but:

Let's see your webpage here, that I saved to my HD: http://kongzi.ca/BCB/misrepresent1/

It appears you are unable (or more likely, unwilling) to respond to the evidence I have provided. When I get some time I will note on the webpage you and BCB are refusing to respond to the evidence I have provided, and therefore you have admitted, in principle, you cannot continue with that accusation against me.

Looks like one down, fifty six to go.

Is that your:

All citations must have an independent timestamp that can be verified.


Wow. LIAR. We can't independently verify your webpage for creating editing. I already proved it that you modified the page with a lot of lies in it.

You need to provide these forum's quotes, not your own server's document that we cannot verify. Google docs's timestamp prove my point.
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