Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 33457. (Read 26496493 times)

Why use Paypal when I can have incredibly low transaction fees?  Makes no sense.  It might invalidate YOUR view of Bitcoin but that's not what it's going to be moving forward.  We'll regulate it or we'll kill it.  Meaning blackball it from any mainstream existence and reduce it to a black market only currency that legitamate business wont touch with a 10 foot pole.  

You ideological guys better wake up out of your delusions because the crypto train is leaving and you guys don't even seem to have a ticket bought for the future.  I'm done with this convo in this thread.  There's plenty of Ripple threads out there and anyone looking for genuine Ripple info can visit the Ripple forums.

Regulation is a problem mkay? Bitcoin was made to solve this problem. You want regulation? Just use the banks, use paypal, use the now dead e-gold.

How you can talk about regulations as something necessary to bring bitcoin mainstream is beyond me. That invalidates the whole point of bitcoin in the first place and it makes me wonder what you are doing here.

Ditto. Was at a Bitcoin meetup last week talking about Ripple, and ive listened to that LetsTalkBitcoin edition of explaining Ripple. Still dont get it, and now dont want to.

What?  Ignore list.

What I mean when I use that analogy is that Napster started the music download revolution but in the end was killed and it was iTunes that came in and did it the right way.

The foundation of Bitcoin is solid but it's full of flaws the Bitcoin community refuses to address.  Add to that, the continued refusal (As if it would even be possible to avoid) to submit to regulations.  This will kill bitcoin on a mass adoption scale faster than anything.  

Ripple, like iTunes is prepared to play nice and work within the confines of the law.  Not to mention, doing all the things Bitcoin could have done, but didn't. For instance:

Imagine, Bitstamp, Gox and all the exchanges as Gateways.  Then add Paypal, Bank of america, Citi Bank and any bank worldwide you can think of.  In time, you can use ANY of them as your gateway to move fiat and BTC.  You can also choose to NOT extend trust to any of them you choose.  This gives the power back to the people.  

I could theoretically buy BTC via paypal and send it to Gox.  Then I could sell that BTC at Gox and send Euros to some bank in the UK.  I can choose how and who I trust and when and where I utilize the gateways.  Now this is a simplified version as Ripple is in between these transfers but the cost from ripple is .00001 or something like that. It's like nothing.  This is what XRP's are for.  To pay transaction fees.  The average user wont need thousands of XRP.  The biggest fees are going to come from the gateways, which they already charge too much, IMO.

wat 

:facepalm:

Maybe if you actually went after those who were talking this nonsense to begin with, I'd listen to you.  But you've proven your bias against me personally so...

NO!

^^

And there's no justification for greed... except for human nature, so is that a design flaw? Could people be bidding XRP up because Ripple itself is difficult to understand?

Anyway, I believe I understand it, and I am unmoved by the anti Ripple arguments based on ideology or pre-mining, but I think it is even harder to explain to consumers than Bitcoin.

Coinseeker, can you summarize why you believe Ripple is iTunes in your analogy? IMO, iTunes was successful because it made it dead SIMPLE to purchase digital music at fair prices, not to mention it was tied to an incredibly well designed piece of hardware, and backed by a monstrous ad campaign. If you agree, how exactly does Ripple change the game like iTunes did?

I'm genuinely curious as I have no dog in the fight (never mined anything), and while I believe in Bitcoin, I'm certainly no fundamentalist.

Man, I now understand it very well. It's a reproduction of the old banking system. If you are trusted (in Ripple, you are a Gateway), you issue IOU's: if you issue IOU's which are not backed by real assets... Well, that's how it is in debt-based systems. You just incur in more debt to cover the holes, and if you don't, you default.

Example:

1) You deposit BTC to Bitstamp (the only "official" Gateway ATM)
2) You grant trust to Bitstamp inside Ripple
3) You "send" your BTC from Bitstamp to your Ripple account: your BTC never leave Bitstamp, they just send a "piece of paper" (IOU) saying that they owe you 10BTC
4) You can trade those IOUs inside Ripple, you can pay for goods, etc.

I hope you grasp the very negative incentives that Bitstamp could have - again, they are virtually able to create money from thin air. They could "lend" you money they don't have against a commission (as the fucking banks we want to get rid of do). This is what TradeFortress is doing - people gave him "trusted" status, so he can virtually create money (455 BTC up to date) - because inside Ripple you just trade IOU's - the only thing is not a IOU are Ripples.

Fucked up system if you ask me. We already have a bank system. And we want to get rid of it.

Can you bring this sort of crap over to the bitcoin discussion forum or alternative crypto...or something? If you're going to get on a soapbox here, make it about why your speculative analysis is right... not why we should "believe in bitcoin."

The question is do you trust your gateway or not?  What's stopping you from sending your BTC's back to your wallet?  Nothing...just send the IOU's back first.  I've been using it too and it works just fine for me.  I can sell BTC's in the Ripple client, send the fiat to Bitstamp, buy more BTC.  Imagine when Gox comes on board, you won't have the spreads across different exchanges because you can immediately exploit the differences because you can move fiat or BTC, wherever you choose, for next to nothing.  

Without Ripple, if you're trading on Gox, you trust Gox with your fiat and BTC, right?  How is that any different?  Gox doesn't have to pay you.  They can run away with your money at anytime they want, so your argument is ridiculous.

I have to say that after being at the conference, talking with the Ripple guys (who did a really valient job of trying to explain to everyone how it works) I still don't understand how it works. To my credit, most people at the conference said they don't understand it. Including some of the core bitcoin dev's and a number of other talented programmers in the bitcoin world. Indeed, no one I spoke to said they really understood how it works.

So, to quote one guy at the conference: "It should make you nervous that you don't understand it".

That's my position on it for now. Speculatively it looks interesting, but the fact that I don't understand it, and guys much smarter and more experienced then myself don't understand it, makes me skeptical of it's future.

Sorry? I'm using Ripple. I've been trading real money in there, as I wanted to understand it. I sent REAL BTC to Bitstamp, and they sent me BTC IOU's to Ripple. Yeah, my BTC never left the Bitstamp BTC address - they are holding them, and they sent BTC IOU's to Ripple, but they can actually do whatever they want with my BTC. They can spend them, and I would still have the BTC IOU's on Ripple. Then, Bitstamp can decide if they honor or not the IOU's they sent to my Ripple address.

Yeah: welcome to fractional reserve, welcome to creating money out of thin air.

After receiving my BTC IOU's from Bitstamp, I exchanged them for USD IOU's - and then exchanged the USD IOU's for Ripples.

The only asset you hold in Ripple are Ripples. The rest, is debt (IOU's), which issuer can decide to honor or not.

A Ripple flamewar in a Bitcoin wall observer thread, well done guys. Are we that bored?

You have no idea what you're talking about.  You're just regurgitating Tradeforest talking points and you're not even doing a good job of it.  

I'll leave you ideological nuts to stew in your insecurities and butt hurt.  You should have fixed Bitcoin and now it may be too late.  That's your fault, not Ripple's.

Oda, I know it's unlikely they will suddenly "cash out" - it's just an extreme example of how much trust you have to place in OpenCoin to hold Ripples.

We all know that the very first Bitcoin purpose is to solve the trust issue.

Really, because they've said as much repeatedly.  Ripple will be decentralized.  Period.  If upon coming out of beta, it's not decentralized, all those arguments will be valid and I will join the chorus.  

What are you talking about? You do not exchange cryptocurrency in Ripple. You exchange a) XRP's or b) other cryptocurrencies IOU's

IOU's which owner can default or decide not to honor them. Only thing which is not an IOU in Ripple are Ripples - quite convenient for OpenCoin, don't you think so?

ya thats to bad.
but its not enough of a reason to cast it aside.

hopefully crypto does "take over" that way people actually can implement decentralized banking solutions       BITCOIN!!!!