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Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 12. (Read 901357 times)

hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
May 01, 2019, 07:07:34 AM

When did I say that our life has no meaning or purpose?

When did I say that human life is worthless?


Not those exact words but similar ones perhaps?

The life on Earth is not special

The purpose of life is to survive and reproduce  

You are a good person if you follow the moral code that your society accepts.  

Here is a thought experiment for you af_newbie. Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.
Standing triumphant over the hundreds of million dead with the whole world in submission how would you judge the Nazi executioners who led the innocent to their doom in the name of racial superiority and suppression of dissent. Would they suddenly become good men according to you? After all they are only following the code that society now accepts. Those who opposed them no longer live. Or would they be evil men who triumphed and in process dragged the world into darkness and evil.

The answer to the question matters a great deal. I judge them evil men despite their victory and despite the fact that they follow the new "moral code" of society would you?

 


''Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.'' Kind of like god and the bible? You know, unless you believe in God you go to hell, etc etc?
member
Activity: 616
Merit: 30
May 01, 2019, 02:08:40 AM
Because thats the way they are raised or some being encouraged by friends

But there also some of them whos being encouraged from schools.but for me it doesnt matter what religion OR BEING none religious like atheist,the important thing is we don’t do bad things to othrs or in the world
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
April 30, 2019, 08:21:59 PM

When did I say that our life has no meaning or purpose?

When did I say that human life is worthless?


Not those exact words but similar ones perhaps?

The life on Earth is not special

The purpose of life is to survive and reproduce  

You are a good person if you follow the moral code that your society accepts.  

Here is a thought experiment for you af_newbie. Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.
Standing triumphant over the hundreds of million dead with the whole world in submission how would you judge the Nazi executioners who led the innocent to their doom in the name of racial superiority and suppression of dissent. Would they suddenly become good men according to you? After all they are only following the code that society now accepts. Those who opposed them no longer live. Or would they be evil men who triumphed and in process dragged the world into darkness and evil.

The answer to the question matters a great deal. I judge them evil men despite their victory and despite the fact that they follow the new "moral code" of society would you?

 
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
April 30, 2019, 01:04:51 PM
^^^ Having great joy in the presence of God. God whipped the universe together in 6 days. We can barely fly above the ground. Think of how wonderful it is going to be in joy in God's presence, where we have a perfect union with Him.

We are God's children. He says it all over the Bible. Think of how wonderful and great it will be when we grow up into God!... even though it will take all eternity to do so.

Cool
hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
April 30, 2019, 12:46:25 PM
^^^ When you said that there is nothing after death.     Cool

Something after death doesn't necessarily give life a purpose or meaning, in fact the bible gives no meaning after death. You go to heaven and then what? What's your purpose there then? Living forever doing what? You could live forever here too, that's not a meaning or purpose.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
April 30, 2019, 12:42:13 PM
^^^ When you said that there is nothing after death.     Cool
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
April 30, 2019, 12:20:36 PM
You often resort to calling people nihilistic. However not believing in anything doesn't make you a nihilist, my point of view is simply that I don't know, I don't know if there is a purpose or an afterlife, they could exist, we don't know, that's not nihilism, that's realism.

God logically makes no sense and your argument was already debunked by the fact that it uses Godel's theorem wrongly.

Only when they are. We should always call things for what they are. Calling someone a nihilist is not an insult just a descriptions of belief. I have never said you were a nihilist for example. I don't really know what your beliefs are other then not Christian.

Af_newbie, on the other hand has more or less stated his agreement with the nihilist worldview. In the course of our multiple discussions we have gone over all of the various postulates of nihilism and as far as I can tell he agrees with all of them. Thus I think it's fair to call him a nihilist just as it is fair to call me a theist.

If I have misjudged him he is welcome to tell me so and outline which principle of nihilism he believes to be false and why. Readers can look at our contrasting worldviews Nihilism vs Theism and decide for themselves.
 
You dislike my argument because you don't like the way it used Godel's theorem. I have no problem with that. I disagree and think the way I used it is sound but at least we have isolated the point of divergence. Others can look at that branch and decide for themselves.

When did I say that our life has no meaning or purpose?

When did I say that human life is worthless?
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
April 30, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
You often resort to calling people nihilistic. However not believing in anything doesn't make you a nihilist, my point of view is simply that I don't know, I don't know if there is a purpose or an afterlife, they could exist, we don't know, that's not nihilism, that's realism.

God logically makes no sense and your argument was already debunked by the fact that it uses Godel's theorem wrongly.

Only when they are. We should always call things for what they are. Calling someone a nihilist is not an insult just a descriptions of belief. I have never said you were a nihilist for example. I don't really know what your beliefs are other then not Christian.

Af_newbie, on the other hand has more or less stated his agreement with the nihilist worldview. In the course of our multiple discussions we have gone over all of the various postulates of nihilism and as far as I can tell he agrees with all of them. Thus I think it's fair to call him a nihilist just as it is fair to call me a theist.

If I have misjudged him he is welcome to tell me so and outline which principle of nihilism he believes to be false and why. Readers can look at our contrasting worldviews Nihilism vs Theism and decide for themselves.
 
You dislike my argument because you don't like the way it used Godel's theorem. I have no problem with that. I disagree and think the way I used it is sound but at least we have isolated the point of divergence. Others can look at that branch and decide for themselves.
hero member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 645
April 30, 2019, 12:00:36 PM
...
You are a God-obsessed, delusional individual who thinks that every materialist is a nihilist.

No not every materialist just you.

You often resort to calling people nihilistic. However not believing in anything doesn't make you a nihilist, my point of view is simply that I don't know, I don't know if there is a purpose or an afterlife, they could exist, we don't know, that's not nihilism, that's realism.

God logically makes no sense and your argument was already debunked by the fact that it uses Godel's theorem wrongly.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
April 30, 2019, 08:51:14 AM
...
You are a God-obsessed, delusional individual who thinks that every materialist is a nihilist.

No not every materialist just you.

LOL. 

ok, you 'win'.  Take your medication NOW.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
April 30, 2019, 08:46:58 AM
...
You are a God-obsessed, delusional individual who thinks that every materialist is a nihilist.

No not every materialist just you.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
April 30, 2019, 08:31:44 AM

In your world, free will might be an illusion based on your grandiose God Delusion (GGD).

In the real world, unknowns remain unknowns until they become knowns. And there is no such thing as God entity 'painting his work of art'.

There is no free will, things are either determined by the physical laws (neurons firing in your brain) or non-deterministic randomness outside of our control.  Both cases push the concept of free will into notbatman's la-la-land.

We disagree so strongly on every single issue because of of your delusion.  Let’s call it your grandiose nihilistic delusion (GND).

In your world life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value, morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are arbitrarily contrived. Human or even the entire human species is essentially insignificant, without purpose and of no importance in the totality of existence.

http://www.arasite.org/WL3/nietnihil.html#_ftn1
Quote from: Dr. W Large
It is the continued destruction of all meaning and signification. It is the belief that nothing really matters any more, because nothing really has any meaning. We have no system of beliefs or values which could orientate us. The old systems of belief, like religion and morality, still exist, but at best we only follow them half-heartedly, and at worst, think that they have no meaning whatsoever.  They exist only the edges of our lives and consciousnesses. But it isn’t just the world that doesn’t have any meaning anymore. We ourselves don’t have any meaning to ourselves. Why should we choice one course of action over the other? What does it really matter anymore, since no-one’s individual life really has any significance in the grand scheme of things...

Nothing is worth much anymore, everything comes down to the same thing, everything is equalized. Everything is the same and equivalent: the true and the false, the good and the bad. Everything is outdated, used up, old dilapidated, dying: an undefined agony of meaning, an unending twilight: not a definite annihilation of significations, but their indefinite collapse.

By rejecting intrinsic value as you do, your are not abandoning the quest for value but certifying the absence of value. What is the antithesis of nihilism? It is faith.

Faith holds that life has inherent meaning. It proclaims that there is an objective status for ethical ideals grounded in the very bedrock of creation. It teaches that man is created "in the image of God," and therefore has inherent dignity and immense value. It offers mankind a purpose in this universe.

Faith demands we not accept the world as it is. Faith provides an ideal and asks us for ethical perfection. It is a goal we fall far short of a world to strive for. Your nihilism provides none of these things for at its heart it is a philosophy of emptiness.

Free will may be an illusion so might time and indeed the entire universe as we perceive it. These possibilities, however, are irrelevant. We have the freedom to express who and what we are by living life. Who and what we are is ultimately determined by what we ‘choose’ to be. Maybe there is some higher order perspective that is capable of knowing the entire structure of our neuronal wiring or is not limited by time as we are and capable of knowing with certainty what our future choices will be. Even in that scenario we are still ‘free’ in the sense that we shout out to the universe what we fundamentally are via our lived lives.

In your world the murderer had no choice on his actions he was compelled to kill by his neuronal wiring the killer is a victim compelled by cause and effect. In my world the murderer made a conscious choice to commit a horrific evil and informed us of who and what he is.

We will not agree because our world views are fundamentally incompatible. We will have to leave it to the readers to ‘choose’ which of our two world views they believe true.



In your example, the murderer does not live in a vacuum.  His thoughts (neurons firing in his brain) are the result of what has happened in his life and/or around him at the moment he is making his decision.  The 'choices' that his mind produces are the result of causality that preceded his thoughts.  The conscience itself is an effect, not the cause.

As for your babbling about nihilism, well, you just proved my point.  You are a God-obsessed, delusional individual who thinks that every materialist is a nihilist.
 
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
April 30, 2019, 08:15:40 AM

In your world, free will might be an illusion based on your grandiose God Delusion (GGD).

In the real world, unknowns remain unknowns until they become knowns. And there is no such thing as God entity 'painting his work of art'.

There is no free will, things are either determined by the physical laws (neurons firing in your brain) or non-deterministic randomness outside of our control.  Both cases push the concept of free will into notbatman's la-la-land.

We disagree so strongly on every single issue because of of your delusion.  Let’s call it your grandiose nihilistic delusion (GND).

In your world life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value, morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are arbitrarily contrived. Human or even the entire human species is essentially insignificant, without purpose and of no importance in the totality of existence.

http://www.arasite.org/WL3/nietnihil.html#_ftn1
Quote from: Dr. W Large
It is the continued destruction of all meaning and signification. It is the belief that nothing really matters any more, because nothing really has any meaning. We have no system of beliefs or values which could orientate us. The old systems of belief, like religion and morality, still exist, but at best we only follow them half-heartedly, and at worst, think that they have no meaning whatsoever.  They exist only the edges of our lives and consciousnesses. But it isn’t just the world that doesn’t have any meaning anymore. We ourselves don’t have any meaning to ourselves. Why should we choice one course of action over the other? What does it really matter anymore, since no-one’s individual life really has any significance in the grand scheme of things...

Nothing is worth much anymore, everything comes down to the same thing, everything is equalized. Everything is the same and equivalent: the true and the false, the good and the bad. Everything is outdated, used up, old dilapidated, dying: an undefined agony of meaning, an unending twilight: not a definite annihilation of significations, but their indefinite collapse.

By rejecting intrinsic value as you do, your are not abandoning the quest for value but certifying the absence of value. What is the antithesis of nihilism? It is faith.

Faith holds that life has inherent meaning. It proclaims that there is an objective status for ethical ideals grounded in the very bedrock of creation. It teaches that man is created "in the image of God," and therefore has inherent dignity and immense value. It offers mankind a purpose in this universe.

Faith demands we not accept the world as it is. Faith provides an ideal and asks us for ethical perfection. It is a goal we fall far short of a world to strive for. Your nihilism provides none of these things for at its heart it is a philosophy of emptiness.

Free will may be an illusion so might time and indeed the entire universe as we perceive it. These possibilities, however, are irrelevant. We have the freedom to express who and what we are by living life. Who and what we are is ultimately determined by what we ‘choose’ to be. Maybe there is some higher order perspective that is capable of knowing the entire structure of our neuronal wiring or is not limited by time as we are and capable of knowing with certainty what our future choices will be. Even in that scenario we are still ‘free’ in the sense that we shout out to the universe what we fundamentally are via our lived lives.

In your world the murderer had no choice on his actions he was compelled to kill by his neuronal wiring the killer is a victim compelled by cause and effect. In my world the murderer made a conscious choice to commit a horrific evil and informed us of who and what he is.

We will not agree because our world views are fundamentally incompatible. We will have to leave it to the readers to ‘choose’ which of our two world views they believe true.

legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
April 30, 2019, 06:20:43 AM

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.


That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

...

Because you say so?  Where is your logic, went out of the window?  I gave you a logical conclusion about why there cannot possibly be free will.

Your assertion is baseless.

My assertion is most definitely not baseless. We cannot know higher order perspectives of reality for they are outside of our frame of reference.

From a sufficiently high Godlike perspective time itself may not even exist and everything may appear as a four dimensional structure consisting of the present past and future simultaneously.

See: TIME is an ILLUSION
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZQxMowBsw

If that were the case then from that Godly perch not only do we not have free will we don’t even have a future. We would be more akin to God’s finished painting a fixed image or work of art.

Say for a moment that is the nature of reality. Would the simultaneous existence of our fixed future change anything? No because it is totally outside of our perceived reality. From our perspective that future is yet to come and will be brought into existence by our actions. For us it may as well not yet exist.

Free will is the same problem. Free will may indeed be an illusion but if it is the illusion is perfect for the determinism is undetectable to those of us living under it. Thus from our limited perspective of we either have free will or we have a perfect illusion of free will. The difference between the two are undetectable for us and thus moot.


In your world, free will might be an illusion based on your grandiose God Delusion (GGD).

In the real world, unknowns remain unknowns until they become knowns. And there is no such thing as God entity 'painting his work of art'.

There is no free will, things are either determined by the physical laws (neurons firing in your brain) or non-deterministic randomness outside of our control.  Both cases push the concept of free will into notbatman's la-la-land.

 
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
April 29, 2019, 11:22:35 PM

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.


That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

...

Because you say so?  Where is your logic, went out of the window?  I gave you a logical conclusion about why there cannot possibly be free will.

Your assertion is baseless.

My assertion is most definitely not baseless. We cannot know higher order perspectives of reality for they are outside of our frame of reference.

From a sufficiently high Godlike perspective time itself may not even exist and everything may appear as a four dimensional structure consisting of the present past and future simultaneously.

See: TIME is an ILLUSION
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZQxMowBsw

If that were the case then from that Godly perch not only do we not have free will we don’t even have a future. We would be more akin to God’s finished painting a fixed image or work of art.

Say for a moment that is the nature of reality. Would the simultaneous existence of our fixed future change anything? No because it is totally outside of our perceived reality. From our perspective that future is yet to come and will be brought into existence by our actions. For us it may as well not yet exist.

Free will is the same problem. Free will may indeed be an illusion but if it is the illusion is perfect for the determinism is undetectable to those of us living under it. Thus from our limited perspective of we either have free will or we have a perfect illusion of free will. The difference between the two are undetectable for us and thus moot.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1038
April 29, 2019, 11:02:53 PM
An NPC claims there's no free will, how charming.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
April 29, 2019, 09:19:56 PM
^^^ God perfectly controls the thoughts and actions of us all according to the free will directions we would move if we had control. But He controls, also, according to His desires for the universe, and the order He has placed herein. ...

How do you know that?
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 1468
April 29, 2019, 09:01:20 PM

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.


That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

...

Because you say so?  Where is your logic, went out of the window?  I gave you a logical conclusion about why there cannot possibly be free will.

Your assertion is baseless.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
April 29, 2019, 08:04:00 PM

You really don't have control over your thoughts and actions as you think you do.

If the universe is deterministic, you have no control over your actions, they are the result of causations that preceded them.
If the universe is non-deterministic, there must be some randomness inside or outside of your brain over which you have no control.

i.e. there is no free will.

That is why the notion that God created evil but gave homo sapiens 'free will' does not make any logical sense.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

C.S. Lewis addressed the issues of free will the choice of evil and how it relates to the self in this excellent little essay/video.

The Shocking Alternative by C.S. Lewis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxzuh5Xx5G4
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
April 29, 2019, 07:16:19 PM
^^^ God perfectly controls the thoughts and actions of us all according to the free will directions we would move if we had control. But He controls, also, according to His desires for the universe, and the order He has placed herein. This means that our thoughts and actions are controlled according to the direction of our free will, by God.

God can do anything. And sometimes He does things that seem like miracles to us... like when people are healed from an ill, and the doctor can't believe that such healing could have happened. Other times he lets us free will our own death by maintaining our free will direction to use that gun.

Is it God's fault? Yes and no. God set things up in a way that He gave Himself over to obedience of our free will, to an extent. He did this before there was imperfection in the world. At that time nothing bad would have happened, but only good.

When people chose to start doing imperfect things, this placed God in a position of carrying out the bad free will actions of people for them. So, God did the only thing He could do. He sent Jesus to take the pain of all the wrongdoings, and the punishment for them. And...

God went around the way He set things up to exist in this life originally. He gives people the choice to be saved for a future life where there will no longer be any imperfection. It's all in Jesus salvation.

You have read the Bible. Believe the salvation.

Cool
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