Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 11. (Read 901520 times)

Going to Hell has to do with rejection of God.

There are two places where people can exist:
1. With God in Heaven, if God takes them there;
2. In this universe as long as it exists, because people are part of this universe.

Why will God take some people to Heaven, but let others remain in this universe? Because God is pulling Himself out of this universe to be obedient to the people who freely reject Him. But He is graciously taking those people with Him who want to remain with Him.

How long will it take this universe to be destroyed once the actual substance of its destruction starts? An eternity of time. God and Heaven are outside-of/way-beyond even the eternity and time of this universe.

The differences between Hitler and God are great. The similarity you suggest doesn't exist. Hitler destroyed those who were against his ideology against their will. God simply removes Himself from people who reject Him according to their rejection request.

Hitler wanted people he killed to die. God did the absolute best that could be done to save people alive.

Because of the way the universe was constructed, God willingly obeyed the request of the people who reject Him. He doesn't kill them. He simply leaves them where they are, as they request. If they can keep themselves alive, great. Let them do it.

In fact, God does more than simply leaving the people as they request. He fixes their request for life. He gives them eternal life. As God leaves this universe, it turns into a lake of fire, so to speak, because He is no longer here to maintain it. It dissolves, even though the completion of the dissolution will take an eternity. And the people who don't want God around any longer, are kept alive - just as they requested - in the churning of eternal destruction... the lake of fire talked about in the Bible.

Wake up and turn to God before you are stuck forever in the lake of fire... the destruction of this universe.

''Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.'' Kind of like god and the bible? You know, unless you believe in God you go to hell, etc etc?

Because thats the way they are raised or some being encouraged by friends

But there also some of them whos being encouraged from schools.but for me it doesnt matter what religion OR BEING none religious like atheist,the important thing is we don’t do bad things to othrs or in the world

Not those exact words but similar ones perhaps?




Here is a thought experiment for you af_newbie. Say the Nazi's had won WWII and gone on to kill anyone who disagreed with their ideology.
Standing triumphant over the hundreds of million dead with the whole world in submission how would you judge the Nazi executioners who led the innocent to their doom in the name of racial superiority and suppression of dissent. Would they suddenly become good men according to you? After all they are only following the code that society now accepts. Those who opposed them no longer live. Or would they be evil men who triumphed and in process dragged the world into darkness and evil.

The answer to the question matters a great deal. I judge them evil men despite their victory and despite the fact that they follow the new "moral code" of society would you?

 

^^^ Having great joy in the presence of God. God whipped the universe together in 6 days. We can barely fly above the ground. Think of how wonderful it is going to be in joy in God's presence, where we have a perfect union with Him.

We are God's children. He says it all over the Bible. Think of how wonderful and great it will be when we grow up into God!... even though it will take all eternity to do so.

Something after death doesn't necessarily give life a purpose or meaning, in fact the bible gives no meaning after death. You go to heaven and then what? What's your purpose there then? Living forever doing what? You could live forever here too, that's not a meaning or purpose.

^^^ When you said that there is nothing after death.     

Only when they are. We should always call things for what they are. Calling someone a nihilist is not an insult just a descriptions of belief. I have never said you were a nihilist for example. I don't really know what your beliefs are other then not Christian.

Af_newbie, on the other hand has more or less stated his agreement with the nihilist worldview. In the course of our multiple discussions we have gone over all of the various postulates of nihilism and as far as I can tell he agrees with all of them. Thus I think it's fair to call him a nihilist just as it is fair to call me a theist.

If I have misjudged him he is welcome to tell me so and outline which principle of nihilism he believes to be false and why. Readers can look at our contrasting worldviews Nihilism vs Theism and decide for themselves.
 
You dislike my argument because you don't like the way it used Godel's theorem. I have no problem with that. I disagree and think the way I used it is sound but at least we have isolated the point of divergence. Others can look at that branch and decide for themselves.

You often resort to calling people nihilistic. However not believing in anything doesn't make you a nihilist, my point of view is simply that I don't know, I don't know if there is a purpose or an afterlife, they could exist, we don't know, that's not nihilism, that's realism.

God logically makes no sense and your argument was already debunked by the fact that it uses Godel's theorem wrongly.

No not every materialist just you.

We disagree so strongly on every single issue because of of your delusion.  Let’s call it your grandiose nihilistic delusion (GND).

In your world life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value, morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are arbitrarily contrived. Human or even the entire human species is essentially insignificant, without purpose and of no importance in the totality of existence.

http://www.arasite.org/WL3/nietnihil.html#_ftn1

By rejecting intrinsic value as you do, your are not abandoning the quest for value but certifying the absence of value. What is the antithesis of nihilism? It is faith.

Faith holds that life has inherent meaning. It proclaims that there is an objective status for ethical ideals grounded in the very bedrock of creation. It teaches that man is created "in the image of God," and therefore has inherent dignity and immense value. It offers mankind a purpose in this universe.

Faith demands we not accept the world as it is. Faith provides an ideal and asks us for ethical perfection. It is a goal we fall far short of a world to strive for. Your nihilism provides none of these things for at its heart it is a philosophy of emptiness.

Free will may be an illusion so might time and indeed the entire universe as we perceive it. These possibilities, however, are irrelevant. We have the freedom to express who and what we are by living life. Who and what we are is ultimately determined by what we ‘choose’ to be. Maybe there is some higher order perspective that is capable of knowing the entire structure of our neuronal wiring or is not limited by time as we are and capable of knowing with certainty what our future choices will be. Even in that scenario we are still ‘free’ in the sense that we shout out to the universe what we fundamentally are via our lived lives.

In your world the murderer had no choice on his actions he was compelled to kill by his neuronal wiring the killer is a victim compelled by cause and effect. In my world the murderer made a conscious choice to commit a horrific evil and informed us of who and what he is.

We will not agree because our world views are fundamentally incompatible. We will have to leave it to the readers to ‘choose’ which of our two world views they believe true.

My assertion is most definitely not baseless. We cannot know higher order perspectives of reality for they are outside of our frame of reference.

From a sufficiently high Godlike perspective time itself may not even exist and everything may appear as a four dimensional structure consisting of the present past and future simultaneously.

See: TIME is an ILLUSION
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VYZQxMowBsw

If that were the case then from that Godly perch not only do we not have free will we don’t even have a future. We would be more akin to God’s finished painting a fixed image or work of art.

Say for a moment that is the nature of reality. Would the simultaneous existence of our fixed future change anything? No because it is totally outside of our perceived reality. From our perspective that future is yet to come and will be brought into existence by our actions. For us it may as well not yet exist.

Free will is the same problem. Free will may indeed be an illusion but if it is the illusion is perfect for the determinism is undetectable to those of us living under it. Thus from our limited perspective of we either have free will or we have a perfect illusion of free will. The difference between the two are undetectable for us and thus moot.

An NPC claims there's no free will, how charming.

We either have free will or we have such a perfect illusion of free will that the difference from our frame of reference is moot.

C.S. Lewis addressed the issues of free will the choice of evil and how it relates to the self in this excellent little essay/video.

The Shocking Alternative by C.S. Lewis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxzuh5Xx5G4

^^^ God perfectly controls the thoughts and actions of us all according to the free will directions we would move if we had control. But He controls, also, according to His desires for the universe, and the order He has placed herein. This means that our thoughts and actions are controlled according to the direction of our free will, by God.

God can do anything. And sometimes He does things that seem like miracles to us... like when people are healed from an ill, and the doctor can't believe that such healing could have happened. Other times he lets us free will our own death by maintaining our free will direction to use that gun.

Is it God's fault? Yes and no. God set things up in a way that He gave Himself over to obedience of our free will, to an extent. He did this before there was imperfection in the world. At that time nothing bad would have happened, but only good.

When people chose to start doing imperfect things, this placed God in a position of carrying out the bad free will actions of people for them. So, God did the only thing He could do. He sent Jesus to take the pain of all the wrongdoings, and the punishment for them. And...

God went around the way He set things up to exist in this life originally. He gives people the choice to be saved for a future life where there will no longer be any imperfection. It's all in Jesus salvation.

You have read the Bible. Believe the salvation.

Ignorant points.

All people die. Or do you know of someone who is 200 years old, and still wildly young? The differences are how old they are when they die, and everything else when comparing people... like the different locations they hold in space, and the different atoms that make up their respective bodies.

The point is that God provides salvation in simply understanding that Jesus removed the curse of death. There will be a resurrection. If you say there won't be a resurrection, how do you know? After all, life the first time is impossible, except that it is here. So, if impossible life can miraculously happen once, why would you think it can't be brought about a second time?

Turn while you have the chance, and accept the salvation offered. But if you won't accept, it isn't because you didn't know. Rather, it's because you made your choice.

Awful argument. First it talks about babies dying from horrible diseases and then proceeds to say there is evil in all of us and that's why god can't get rid of evil because he would have to wipe humanity. However, a baby is not evil and has done nothing, he/she didn't even have time to do anything and yet they still die for absolutely no reason of horrible diseases, suffering.

Another important flaw in your argument that we would be ''slaves'' is the FACT that god himself already wiped the whole humanity once, remember? With the flood? I'm not sure your brain functions correctly mate.

Well, I never truly had "faith", just not wired that way. Started doubting religion very early on, became an atheist before I even hit puberty.
I did hate religion with a passion for a good chunk of my teenage years, reason for that was my environment. Religion is very prevalent in my country, a majority of people here are devout believers in orthodox christianity. I, being the "doubtful tom", often ended up on their crosshair, even without me "advertising" my lack of faith.
Being the proud guy that I am, I got into a lot of conflicts because of it.
These days, I'm not as passionate about my dislike for the "opium of the masses", but I'd rather it didn't exist.
A wise fella once said "religion is the only thing, that I know of, which can cause a good man to do monstrous things".

I choose reality - eternal death. 

Just so you know. Christianity is the symble of eternal life in joy with God.

Satanism is the symbol of destruction, and eternal death - eternal death isn't as simple as it sounds.

But you know this because you have read the Bible.