Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 9. (Read 901357 times)

You don't understand what I have posted so far.  What do you mean 'validate life'?  Life just is.  It does not need validation.

The majority has nothing to do with it.  Some things are true, no matter the religion or political system.

Actions that cause harm are undesirable, no matter what planet you are on.

What barbarism am I advocating?

PS. The Bible did not transform barbarians.  Secular thought and science did.  Barbarians were burning witches and scientists until the 18th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_for_witchcraft

What did the barbarians do to Giordano Bruno?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

You are simply deluded not only about your belief system but also of what actually happened in history.

Yes those laws were given to the ancient Israelites but the wisdom in them does apply to us. Sin is still sin. We have simply been instructed to use compassion with those struggling with sin and temper justice with mercy whenever possible. We are all sinners in need of mercy and grace.

You accuse me of doing an apologetic tap dance but the only one I see dancing around the real issues here is you. You seem unwilling or unable to face the horrible implications of your philosophy and religion.

You said you value your life tremendously but under your belief system the only thing that gives that life validity and value is the arbitrary and capricious will of the majority. That is why you are presumably ok with abortion as you believe it is the right of majority to decide if a human being is granted “human status” and the right to live.

Presumably you are fine with active euthanasia for the sick and disabled as well if the families agree to it. In some countries the mentality ill are now starting being euthanized for psychological pain. Aren’t we all better off if their just not around anymore? Great strides forward for the humanist.

https://www.lifenews.com/2015/06/22/doctor-will-kill-healthy-24-year-old-in-euthanasia-whos-thought-of-suicide-since-she-was-a-kid/

The leftist parts of the country in the USA are now allowing fully grown babies totally capable of independent survival independently of the mother be killed right up to the moment of birth. Those on the frontlines of “progress” also defend “peaceful” euthanasia of disabled young infants.  The world is crowded already and when push comes to shove what kind of life would a sick or disabled baby have anyways? It better for everyone to speed death along say the moral relativists.

https://www.lifenews.com/2015/01/02/doctors-euthanize-650-babies-under-assisted-suicide-law-in-the-netherlands/

Who are the real Barbarians here? Certainly it’s not the Christians. The real Barbarism is being perpetrated daily on the most vulnerable of society by your fellow moral relativists.

You’ve got the Bible wrong af_newbie. It was written for Bronze Age barbarians. It is the very thing that transformed them into something slightly better. By rejecting it you are not advancing moral progress as you believe but helping take society a great stride backwards in barbarism.

The evidence for this is all around you. Open your eyes set aside your preconceived notions for a moment and look.

Why don't you want to get it through your head, that many of the OT laws are governmental laws for the OT nation of Israel. Included is the Bible law you quoted, above.

If a government of today has this law, it should be obeyed. If people don't like it, they should change it, or move out. But the USA certainly doesn't have this law. And there are many European nations, and other nations all over the world that don't have this law.

However, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good law to have. It is homosexually active people who are spreading disease, not carrying out God's desires, living useless lives in their activity rather than having children, and teaching their stupid ways to the youth of today. In addition, if they are reprimanded, most of them become maniacally and vehemently and violently outspoken to the point of marching in violence. But you don't see this kind of outcry among the peaceful people who are straight, except in defense of themselves and their families from the gays.

Why is this? It's because even the highly intelligent gays are essentially brain-dead, or they wouldn't be gays in the first place.

It isn't the Christians and Jews who are violent against the gays... at least not first... but it is the gays who are violent against anybody else. Most of the straight people have moved out of San Francisco, because it has become a pig-stye of gays and druggies... who like to live in the crap they are laying down around themselves. And you like promoting this kind of thing.

No wonder you can't understand religion or God.

Factually false according to the most definitive authority in Christianity.

John 8:4 - 8:11
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.

Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Leviticus 20-13
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Let me stop you right there before you claim that killing is not murder.  

Gays must be killed according to your Christian/Jewish/Muslim scripture.  If this is not incitement to violence than I don't know what is.

^^^ You still don't get it, do you?

Everyone is dead through their flawed genetics. God offers life and salvation from their genetic flaws, through Jesus salvation. You and the pre-Flood people wanted death by not accepting God, and probably even attempting to entirely forget Him out of their lives - just like you are doing.

God simply expedited their general request a little.

However, since God owns everything, there isn't anything wrong with his murdering of anything. If you don't like that idea, you are simply showing your rebellion against your owner.

God killed everyone with the flood.

Exodus 22:2
“If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.”

Leviticus 24:15–16
“Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death.”

Leviticus 24:17
“Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.”
 
etc. etc.

But Christian religious laws, and laws of many other religions absolutely tell people not to murder. What rock have you been hiding under for all this while?

Are you brain damaged?

Religious laws tell people to murder people for no apparent reason. That is not freedom of speech.  That is hate speech.

Religious laws incite violence.

than why you people can not hear to religious beliefs where is your freedom of speech. Why the hell you people are blaming religions for all the mess

You are doing a typical apologetic tap dance.  "Oh, well, those particular laws were given to ancient Israelites, not for us, etc."

Where are the 10 commandments?  Whom were they given to?  Why are you obeying some laws but not the others?

Because you are not a Bronze Age barbarian that is why.

Christians, Muslims, and Jews don't kill gays because of the secular laws are preventing them from doing so.  That is one of the reasons why they do not obey 'God's laws'.  Other reason might be that they are good people and ignore the Bible or Quran, as sane people in the 21st century should.

If we removed the secular laws, and go by the biblical/quranic laws only, we would have a lot of massacres on our hands.

The point is the scriptures are seriously fucked up.  They were written by barbarians for barbarians.  End of story.

Nothing to discuss, move along.

The problem we have af_newbie is not a decline in the quality of my response but a deeper fundamental divergence. We have adopted different fundamental positions regarding the nature of reality.

We both embrace the scientific method and are able to talk to each other coherently on topics related to fact and experiment. However, the conversation has now entered into the realm of the philosophical (free will vs determinism) and base principles (objective vs subjective morality) where out differences become stark and irreconcilable.

I have answered your argument about free will. You said that “If the world is deterministic, you have no control over what you are going to do next.  Your thoughts are driven by all the cause and effects.”

I replied yes that is true but also irrelevant because you are using the wrong frame of reference to analyze the situation. You are attempting to describe how the universe looks from an all knowing top-down perspective of God. We don’t live in that frame of reference.

It is possible for agents to be free, relative to the fiction that they live in, whilst wholly determined from a God’s eye view. This was demonstrated by Izbicer well over a century ago.

The Izbicer Rebbe and Freewill
http://www.theapj.com/the-izbicer-rebbe-and-freewill-2/

We are free relative to our own limited frame of reference. This makes our freedom as real as anything else in this wondrous creation we find ourselves in.

As for apologetics. I agree that the Bible and any holy text should be understood in the original language and context they were written in. As far as Leviticus 20-13 it is clear that the Ancient Israelites were commanded to assign the death penalty to homosexual acts. However, why isolate that particular passage. There were a whole host of atypical or aberrant sexual behaviors that were similarly assigned the death penalty. Homosexuality was not singled out as special or unique. The death penalty was commanded for a variaty of sexual infractions these included:

Having homosexual intercourse between men (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13).

Committing adultery between a man and a woman (Leviticus 20:10-12, Deuteronomy 22:22).

Being the daughter of a priest and practicing prostitution (Leviticus 21:9).

Raping an engaged female virgin (Deuteronomy 22:25).

Being male and practicing bestiality (Leviticus 20:15).

Being female and practicing bestiality (Leviticus 20:16).

Having sex with your father’s wife (Leviticus 20:20).

Having sex with your daughter-in-law (Leviticus 20:30).

Having incestual sex (Leviticus 20:17).

Marrying a woman and her daughter (Leviticus 20:14).

What’s the common theme here? It is that the human sexual acts must be confined only to traditional marriage between a man and women. Anything that detached the sex act from the bedrock foundation of the family and marriage was deemed so serious that it warranted death.

We’re all these rules necessary? There is a good argument to be made that they were. A strong society is ultimately composed of strong stable family units. The survival of higher civilization in the long run ultimately depends on strong stable family units. This is especially true when that society is under existential outside threat like the ancient Israelites were.

Dennis Prager does a good job of highlighting this here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B0-epfgG7lI

So no I do not agree that “the scriptures are seriously fucked up”.  Picking and choosing the isolated prohibitions you personally disagree with is pointless. You take issue with Leviticus 18:22. Someone else may think incest should be ok and dislike Leviticus 20:17. A third person may believe animals are on this earth for human consumption and enjoyment and hate Leviticus 20:15.

The reality is there is not a single group of Christians in the world going around and enforcing of the death penalty for Leviticus 18:22. Why not? After all the Bible is the word of God.

The reason at least for Christians is because Christians were also instructed that that we have reached the point in our development when we need to include mercy in the evaluation of sin for we are all grievous sinners to some degree or another. That mercy should extend when possible even to violations of Biblical law.

John 8:7 , “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”

You will have a hard time following the importance of this logic because you don’t believe in sin.

I was arguing that scriptures are fucked up.  Read before you answer.


Christian or Jewish apologetics are the same as Muslim apologetics.  You guys ignore the scriptures and divert the attention to something else.

Leviticus 20-13
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."


Both scriptures, the Quran and the Bible are clear on the subject. I am not sure what your objection is.

Are you confused?  Frankly, the quality of your responses has been falling considerably.  Are you ok?

You did not even try to counter my argument that destroyed the concept of free will.  Now you babble something that not all Christians follow the Bible because they do not kill gays today.  How is this remotely relevant to the discussion of the content of the scriptures?

Atheists have the easiest job in the world.  They can just open the Bible or the Quran and read.

You, on the other hand, have to resort some mental gymnastics by inventing "proper instantiation", "proper translation", "proper metaphor",
"that is not what the writers meant",  "the scriptures have to be read in the original language they were written", etc.

But the fact is that the scriptures recommend some seriously fucked shit as punishment, every 10-year old who reads it understands it, except you guys.

Admit that the scriptures are seriously fucked up so that we can move on to more important topics.

Still waiting for that scientific evidence that you can ''cure'' gays, you might have just discovered the biggest discovery in this era. I ask you again, what if I can't reproduce or I simply do not want kids, am I mentally ill too?

You ultimately can judge any religion including your moral relativism by its fruits.

Show me the current Christian or Jewish community anywhere in the world where homosexuals are routinely killed and murdered.

After you are done futilely trying to find one I will show you the multiple areas of the planet where your moral relativism is currently in vogue. In those communities the unborn are routinely murdererd in their millions and the elderly are increasingly being put down by their doctors. Death by doctor now account for up to 25% of adult mortality in some countries.

Where are your morals?  You don't think murdering people is wrong?  

What the fuck is wrong with you?  Are you mentally sick?

Only someone embracing a truly deranged religion would utterly focus on the ridiculous theoretical risk of Christians rising up in mass to kill all the gays while nonchalantly ignoring the machinery of mass death all around them.

Edit:
In fairness to af_newbie I just realized that he was responding not to BADecker but to someone of the following religion.


If he wants to make the case that moral relativism is superior to Mohammedism I will stay out of that fight as I hold an unfavorable opinion about both.

Where are your morals?  You don't think murdering people is wrong? 

What the fuck is wrong with you?  Are you mentally sick?

Nature has a purpose for everything. How much more when the purpose is a command from God. And especially when we see that it is a great command.

As far as the cures, you won't look for them because you like being mentally ill in general.

Never thought about this.

no i think its right.

''Acting out the gay part is an illness because it completely thwarts the purpose for the instincts, procreation.'' Am I sick if I don't like having sex or kids? Am I sick if my dick doesn't work because I can't procreate? Weird statement there mate, doesn't work very well.

Is there any scientific evidence to back up your claims that following those steps will turn you into a heterosexual human?